Path: ns-mx!uunet!wupost!m.cs.uiuc.edu!vela!dlcogswe From: dlcogswe@vela.acs.oakland.edu (Dan Cogswell) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Roswell Message-ID: <8838@vela.acs.oakland.edu> Date: 9 Aug 91 19:05:18 GMT References: <1991Aug9.154724.20033@linus.mitre.org> Organization: Oakland University, Rochester MI. Lines: 84 In article <1991Aug9.154724.20033@linus.mitre.org> M14494@mwvm.mitre.org writes: >I think *nothing* happened at Roswell. Flatly wrong. *Something* happened. Whether it's a UFO crash or not is another story. > I'll quote Carl Sagan, who said "Remarkable claims require remarkable > proofs". Maybe. There's a slight problem with that in this case though. >But if you tell >me the Earth is being visited by beings from another world, I'm going to >require good proof before I'll believe that beause it is very remarkable, and >the consequences of believing it if it's untrue are large. Why? Are you going to turn into a different person or get thrown into an insane asylum? I doubt *anyone* could tell you believed it if you didn't want them to. >I'll also quote >a legal principle: Habeas Corpus. It means "you should have the body", and >is broadly interpreted to require proof before imprisoning someone. All the >"evidence" of extraterrestrial spacecraft is just talk; there a lots of >people who *say* they've seen one or even flown in one, who *say* that the >feds have a hanger full of them somewhere, who *say* they've held peices of >wrecked spaceships in their hand, but it's all just talk. Stick to the allegations of Roswell: the case DOES NOT involve a "hanger full of them somewhere" nor people saying they've flown in one. Erect a straw man and knock it down? Those points have nothing to do with this case. Habeus Corpus also requires that it be illegal to withold evidence. In the Roswell case, all physical evidence is (alledgedly) being withheld by the government. The only thing that remains is "just talk." And that "talk" says there *used* to be physical evidence. >There has never >been a systematic, scientific, public study of an ET or a ship, never so much >as one clear, unambiguous picture of one, never an interview with one on the >Carson show. You got the time (money) for the type of investigation you want? There's been several private investigations of Roswell and guess what? They've all found pretty much the same thing (with slight differences in details). Seems to me a race with capabilities of interstellar travel could do a darn good job of hiding from Joe Schmoe and his 35 mm. When portable home Radar becomes cheap enough, then complain. Johnny Carson spends too much time booking country singers to spend time with ET's. >Habeas Corpus, dudes! Don't call me dude. :-) >Maybe it's true that the place is thick >with Martians abducting folks, chopping up cows, and doodling in the winter >wheat in England. Maybe it's true that the Feds are covering the whole thing >up. But for me, I'm going to withhold my belief until I see some evidence >other than anecdotes and wishful thinking. Don't confuse the issue of Roswell with claims made by UFO-nuts that explain everything they don't understand as coming from the bay of a mother-ship from some distant star system. Roswell isn't all that unusual if you believe there is highly intelligent life on other planets. Certainly, a UFO crash is unusual, but other than that, there's no hocus-pocus cattle mutilations or cities dissappearing. Even government cover-ups aren't unusual. I still have doubts about a UFO crash in Roswell, but the fact that there's little solid evidence isn't what bothers me. What really bothers me about it is the fact that it could possibly be explained as a Fugo balloon bomb. However, I don't think this is any more *likely* a story, being that it was a full two years after WWII. Further, the fact that the government hasn't *shown* the remains of a Fugo in the last 40 years to explain Roswell raises a big doubt in my mind. -- Dan Cogswell dlcogswe@vela.acs.oakland.edu Mostly H20 and whatever pizza and Diet Pepsi digest into Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!casbah.acns.nwu.edu!ils.nwu.edu!shafto From: shafto@ils.nwu.edu (Eric Shafto) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal,sci.skeptic,alt.slack Subject: Re: A Solar tour #6 Message-ID: <2761@anaxagoras.ils.nwu.edu> Date: 9 Aug 91 17:10:35 GMT References: <1991Aug8.202534.16794@javelin.sim.es.com> Sender: news@ils.nwu.edu Organization: The Institute for the Learning Sciences Lines: 41 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:1643 alt.paranormal:2433 sci.skeptic:13650 alt.slack:955 pashdown@javelin.sim.es.com (Pete Ashdown) writes: > > (Funky Speaking) > > As we leave the mighty Jupiter, we come upon Saturn. This is a beautiful > planet with a beautiful ring constructed of solid plutonium. The peoples of > Saturn are true party pigs, they bring us to their plush houses filled > with shag carpet and Greek plaster statues. For many centuries the Saturnians > have been living in a state of inebriation, for they are the mightiest party > pigs this side of the Rigelan empire. They can teach us much about having > a good time. Trying to relocate to this beer bucket is difficult, for the > remaining real estate has been taken up by strip joints and discos. The > Saturnians are gracious hosts though, filling our space junket with the > finest Nitrous Oxide Beer kegs. > > I will leave you with this saying: A beer in the hand is better than a beer in > the beer case. > > Standard Disclaimer. > > Jon Bah! An obvious forgery. Not one spelling error in the entire post. Furthermore, this Mountebank left spaces between the Blather, the Blither, and the Disclaimer portions of the post. We JOHNFW@SLACVM followers will never fall for such a childish attempt to discredit the Prophet of Mon-Kee! On a more serious note, a co-worker of JFW's was cornered on the net and forced to confess that he knows JFW, and, while he doesn't believe all his theories, does believe that JFW is sincere. Does that mean that he thinks that JFW really hears the voices coming out of his radio? And I was just starting to go for the prankster theory. -- *Eric Shafto * How many loved your moments of glad grace, * *Institute for the * And loved your beauty with love false or true, * * Learning Sciences * One man loved the pilgrim soul in you, * *Northwestern University * And loved the sorrows of your changing face; * Path: ns-mx!uunet!mcsun!ukc!warwick!covpoly!cck.cov.ac.uk!unreplyable!garbage From: idx009@cck.cov.ac.uk (the Crisco Kid) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: needles, implants, tissue samples Message-ID: <^VQ}{-_@cck.cov.ac.uk> Date: 9 Aug 91 18:50:33 GMT References: <9851@awdprime.UUCP> <862@carbon.crc.ac.uk> Organization: Eris's Restaurant Lines: 15 In article <862@carbon.crc.ac.uk> sgamble@crc.ac.uk (Steve Gamble x3293) writes: >in sleep. Likewise in Cathy Davies case (from Budd Hopkins book Intruders) >she seems to be abducted when gets the compulsion to visit the local >late night store to buy Coke or snacks. She describes implants inserted >up her nose. This does sound awfully like Philip Glass' show "1000 Airplanes on the roof". Any connexion? Kay -- 6'2", dark short hair, blue eyes, bisexual and horny as .... Kay Dekker, Dept of Industrial Design, Coventry Poly, Coventry UK 37 Old Winnings Road, Keresley Village, Coventry |B0 f- t+ g++ k++! s+ e r p! Phone: +44 203 838668 (work) +44 203 337865 (home) | Path: ns-mx!uunet!wupost!usc!apple!spies!blake From: bbs.blake@doomsday.Spies.COM (Blake) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Yo! Needles/Communion & Shit Message-ID: Date: 9 Aug 91 07:42:46 GMT References: Sender: news@Spies.COM Organization: Spies in the wire, (408) 867-7400 Lines: 46 Nntp-Posting-Host: doomsday.spies.com cs49+@andrew.cmu.edu (Christopher J. Shields) writes: > Whoa! Maybe I'm outta line here but people have been posting stuff that > I just can't agree with... > > 1> "Communion" as a movie SUCKED cinematography-wise and somewhat story > wise. Yes it was very much "here's my story, take it or leave it", But > Peter Weller did a really lousy job and I didn't get the ending ( no, > not the part about Strieber communicating with the aliens, the part with > the masks and the Grey who takes half his face off, What the Fuck? ). I > felt the book was better and that Transformation was more informative. > > 2> Strieber had an MRI .....NOT a Cat Scan like people have been saying. > This was reported in a year-old or so issue of OMNI ( I can't remember > the date but I do remember the article ) A white spot showed up on his > MRI around the area of his optic nerve. This could be an alien implant > or it could be an air bubble. In the movie the needle was inserted in > his ear yet in the book it was inserted into his left nostril. The book > makes more sense. Bud Hopkins was quoted as saying in the issue of Omni > that it would be virtually impossible to remove the 2mm implant that > Strieber claims to have. > > 3> If space is infinite what the fuck makes us the only/most advanced > intellegence in the universe? NOT! > > 4> THEY haven't disproved alien intellegence exsists. > > Just kinda ina bitchy mood, comments by e-mail please, sorry about > typos, all flames ignored, have a nice day...... > > Peace, > > c.shields You have got your facts WRONG, Mr. Shields. At least as far as the implant thingy goes. As for the cinematography, that's your opinion. The movie wasn't THAT bad, but it could have used improvement. Anyway, the BOOK had the needle being inserted BEHIND his ear, and so did the movie... they were consistent on that point. Where did you get that about it being inserted into his nostril OR his ear? Are you feeling all right? -- Sean R. Lynch | Internet: Blake | "Standard by twelve, 13665 Long Ridge Rd. | bbs.blake@doomsday.Spies.COM | Mister Crusher." Los Gatos, CA 95030 | Home Phone: (408) 353-1217 | Blake is innocent! Path: ns-mx!uunet!cadence!jdm From: jdm@cadence.com (Joe Mastroianni) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy Subject: Re: FILE: OH Krill part 4 (Conclusion) Message-ID: <1991Aug9.201944.5348@cadence.com> Date: 9 Aug 91 20:19:44 GMT References: <1991Aug8.055411.24453@bilver.uucp> Sender: Joe Mastroianni Organization: Cadence Design Systems, Inc. Lines: 21 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:1646 alt.conspiracy:6553 This is a wonderful story. This should be published in a much longer book form with better character development. It is probably best read on an airplane speeding across the pacific ocean on the way to some exotic Asian destination. Seriously, though, I think you could get some money for this. There was obviously a lot of work and research that went into it. You may even want to try to make a screen or teleplay version. If it were well enought written, there could be a Hugo in it for you. Joe -- Joe Mastroianni AKA: AA6YD AA6YD @ N6LDL.#NOCAL.CA.USA.NA Cadence Design Systems Santa Clara Ca. "Up the airy mountain;down the rushy glen; we jdm@cadence.com daren't go a hunting; for fear of little men " Path: ns-mx!uunet!europa.asd.contel.com!noc.sura.net!haven.umd.edu!uvaarpa!murdoch!usenet From: roa@davinci.acc.Virginia.EDU (Robert O. Anderson Jr) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Roswell Message-ID: <1991Aug9.184410.13644@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU> Date: 9 Aug 91 18:44:10 GMT Sender: usenet@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU Organization: University of Virginia Lines: 32 Ireallyam: roa => =>>From: dlcogswe@vela.acs.oakland.edu (Dan Cogswell) writes: [stuff deleted] => =>>In my opinion, however, it was a UFO. => ^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^ => => Let me get this straight, if the government says it's a UFO, =>then it MUST BE a UFO. If they say it's a Fugo, then they're LYING !! >It's easy to fabricate a story about a Fugo. The government has several >samples of them (and displays them occasionally). How many ET craft >have you seen in the Smithsonian? In other words, you'll *never* settle >the argument by providing evidence that it was a ballon bomb. >Could you explain what my being at Oakland University in Rochester in Oakland >county, Michigan reveals to you? How old are you, Bobby? Just learning >to type? >Only *one* Bobby in all of Virginia? It's a good thing. Well, you really got me that time, Dan. My age?? I'm probably older than you think. UFOs ?? Like the old fellow says, "You'd have to show me one!" and then there's something about 'anything that you read and only half of what you see'. Bobby Path: ns-mx!uunet!cadence!jdm From: jdm@cadence.com (Joe Mastroianni) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Communion question Keywords: communion Message-ID: <1991Aug9.202712.8399@cadence.com> Date: 9 Aug 91 20:27:12 GMT References: Sender: Joe Mastroianni Organization: Cadence Design Systems, Inc. Lines: 21 In article bbs.blake@doomsday.Spies.COM (Blake) writes: >ewf2@ra.MsState.Edu (Juice S. Aaron) writes: > >> >> A few months ago I picked up and read the vast majority of >> the book called Communion. What the book had to say >> was quite interesting and sometimes somewhat shocking [I deleted lots and lots of stuff] I thought the movie was pretty lame. The book was downright scary. The movie was like something I would go to see at a drive-in with my girlfriend and watch with one eye and the volume turned off. Guess Im old. I haven't seen very many drive-ins around these days. Joe -- Joe Mastroianni AKA: AA6YD AA6YD @ N6LDL.#NOCAL.CA.USA.NA Cadence Design Systems Santa Clara Ca. "Up the airy mountain;down the rushy glen; we jdm@cadence.com daren't go a hunting; for fear of little men " Path: ns-mx!uunet!stanford.edu!unixhub!slacvm!harvey From: HARVEY@SLACVM.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal,sci.skeptic,alt.slack Subject: Re: A Solar tour #6 Message-ID: <91221.135752HARVEY@SLACVM.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> Date: 9 Aug 91 21:57:52 GMT References: <1991Aug8.202534.16794@javelin.sim.es.com> <2761@anaxagoras.ils.nwu.edu> Organization: Stanford Linear Accelerator Center Lines: 42 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:1649 alt.paranormal:2435 sci.skeptic:13652 alt.slack:959 In article <2761@anaxagoras.ils.nwu.edu>, shafto@ils.nwu.edu (Eric Shafto) says: > >pashdown@javelin.sim.es.com (Pete Ashdown) writes: >> >> (Funky Speaking) >> >> As we leave the mighty Jupiter, we come upon Saturn. This is a beautiful >> planet with a beautiful ring constructed of solid plutonium. The peoples of >> Saturn are true party pigs, they bring us to their plush houses filled >> with shag carpet and Greek plaster statues. For many centuries the s >Saturnian >> have been living in a state of inebriation, for they are the mightiest party >> pigs this side of the Rigelan empire. They can teach us much about having >> a good time. Trying to relocate to this beer bucket is difficult, for the >> remaining real estate has been taken up by strip joints and discos. The >> Saturnians are gracious hosts though, filling our space junket with the >> finest Nitrous Oxide Beer kegs. >> >> I will leave you with this saying: A beer in the hand is better than a beer n >i >> the beer case. >> >> Standard Disclaimer. >> >> Jon > >Bah! An obvious forgery. Not one spelling error in the entire >post. Furthermore, this Mountebank left spaces between the >Blather, the Blither, and the Disclaimer portions of the post. > >We JOHNFW@SLACVM followers will never fall for such a childish >attempt to discredit the Prophet of Mon-Kee! > >On a more serious note, a co-worker of JFW's was cornered on >the net and forced to confess that he knows JFW, and, while he >doesn't believe all his theories, does believe that JFW is >sincere. Does that mean that he thinks that JFW really hears >the voices coming out of his radio? I also hear voices coming out of my radio. cornered coworker of JFW Path: ns-mx!uunet!verifone.com!ed_l1 From: ed_l1@verifone.com Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal Subject: Re: Ansr how life got on Earth.(+anthro+psi) Message-ID: <1991Aug9.111839.2868@verifone.com> Date: 9 Aug 91 21:18:39 GMT References: <1991Jul12.205856.26896@bony1.bony.com> <1991Aug3.170949.19919@hobbes.kzoo.edu> <1991Aug6.120038.17853@ujocs.joensuu.fi> <1991Aug7.152430.17799@hobbes.kzoo.edu> Organization: VeriFone Inc., Honolulu HI Lines: 90 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:1650 sci.skeptic:13654 alt.paranormal:2437 In article <1991Aug7.152430.17799@hobbes.kzoo.edu>, k080093@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Josh Vander Berg) writes: > In article <1991Aug6.120038.17853@ujocs.joensuu.fi> asiivo@ujocs.joensuu.fi (Antti Siivonen) writes: >>k080093@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Josh Vander Berg) writes: >> >>>In article <91191.083839JOHNFW@SLACVM.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> JOHNFW@SLACVM.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU writes: >>>>In my opinion one of the reasons why science has a hard time finding >>>>the missing link and how man evolved on earth is that man is not >>>>native of this planet but was brought or came here from other planets >> >>>Nice theory, too bad it totally ignores scientific fact. If man was >>>brought here from another planet, why the heck does he share 99% of his >>>genome with chimps? Answer: He EVOLVED from monkeys. The reason they >>>can't find any missing link is because things that lived millions of years >>>ago are generally pretty damned hard to find evidence of nowadays. I >>>suppose though that you will just argue that whoever put humans here >>>genetically engineered us to be very similar to apes. Further and further >>>into fantasy we tread.... Just a point of accuracy, we did not evolve from monkeys. both monkeys (a fully modern primate) and ourselves evolved from a common primate ancestor. It's quite a different thing. We have actually very few fossils, but then we were not in those days the dominant species on Earth. The fossils we do have give a relatively complete picture going back almost 4 million years, however, to a form which although it walked upright had a brain about the size of a chimp. Clearly a transitional form. Since that time there have been a series of leaps and plateaus in our (human) evolution. This is not inconsistant with evolution theory. A successful mutation will establish itself quite rapidly, but a successful mutation is not a common thing. >> >> The reason why the missing links are so hard to find is that there are >> no such links at all. A lot of skeletons of apes and people have been >> found, but no 'links' between them, we must come to a conclusion that, >> simply, there are no such links. >> >> Andreas >> Oh? What about H.S. Neanderthal? Human or ape? Apply the same question to Homo Erectus, Homo habilis, Australopithecus Africanus, A. Afarensis.... A Afarensis, had some human and some ape characteristics, and more ape, perhaps. If there is a gap it is in the Miocene, between earlier forms and A. Afar. We have some Ramapithecines and Sivapithecines, but the connection is not yet considered very solid. It is likely there that the split occurred. there were lots of "apes" in the Miocene, and Ram of Siv are just the best candidates for our ancestor in that time period. Again: MODERN HUMANS HAVE A RELATIVELY CLEAR ANCESTRY GOING BACK 4 MILLION YRS! > Strange, I am aware of many skeletons having been found which were definitely > non-human and non-ape, but primates. But then again, I guess all of the > paleontologists(sp?) are wrong, and you are right. I believe that the > missing link refers to a link between our proto-human ancestors and "apes". > To often people use the "missing link" to totally discount evolution. This > is wrong, looking at one gap in the fossil record does not disprove the > large body of fossil evidence which shows human's evolution from lower > primates. Well said. > > Also, this attitude "the reason we have never found it is because it does > not exist" I find to be totally repugnant. By this logic, the reason we > have never seen an atom is because they don't exist, the reason we have > never seen an electron is because it doesn't exist. > This viewpoint, aside from being incredible narrow minded, > ignores the fact that the existence of these things can be infered from > other directly observable evidence. We know there are electrons because we > observe phenomenon which can only by explained by the invention of an > electron "model". We also know that the missing link must somehow exist, > and can infer quite alot about what the missing link must be like because of > the body of fossil evidence surrounding this "gap". Oh well, while I am here I might as well apply this same model to ESP, or PSI phenomenon. Hundreds of years of thousands of people reporting occurrances of this nature must mean that something is going on. -- *************************************************************************** * Ed L'Esperance - P.O. Box 4635, Kane`ohe, Hawai`i 96744 U.S.A. * * Anthropologist, Writer, Editor, etc. -*- UUCP%"Ed_L1@VeriFone.Com" * * Disclaimer: Opinions Copyright 1991 Ed L'Esperance. HANDS OFF! * * Opinion #1: "Are you trying to tell me that these people are SERIOUS?" * * #2: "What do you mean 'just opinions?' -- that's all anyone has!" * *************************************************************************** Path: ns-mx!uunet!world!kibo From: kibo@world.std.com (James 'Kibo' Parry) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal,sci.skeptic,alt.slack Subject: Re: A Solar tour #6 Message-ID: <1991Aug10.012339.8216@world.std.com> Date: 10 Aug 91 01:23:39 GMT References: <1991Aug8.202534.16794@javelin.sim.es.com> <2761@anaxagoras.ils.nwu.edu> <91221.135752HARVEY@SLACVM.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> Organization: Kibo's Home Office (in Boston's Back^H^H^H^H^HSlack Bay) Lines: 20 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:1651 alt.paranormal:2438 sci.skeptic:13657 alt.slack:960 In article <91221.135752HARVEY@SLACVM.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> HARVEY@SLACVM.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU writes: >>On a more serious note, a co-worker of JFW's was cornered on >>the net and forced to confess that he knows JFW, and, while he >>doesn't believe all his theories, does believe that JFW is >>sincere. Does that mean that he thinks that JFW really hears >>the voices coming out of his radio? >I also hear voices coming out of my radio. >cornered coworker of JFW And I also hear the voices coming out of your radio all the way over on the East Coast! I'd like to leave you with this saying: "You're Allowed!" Standard Kibo. Disclaimer. Standard SLACk linespacing. I have to go now, the radio just told me to kill my TV set and then join the New Kids on the Block. -- ............................................................................. James "Kibo" Parry kibo@world.std.com Independent graphic designer 271 Dartmouth St. #3D and typeface designer. Boston, MA 02116 (617) 262-3922 Path: ns-mx!uunet!wupost!rex!samsung!know!mips2!bull.bull.fr!corton!mcsun!news.funet.fi!sunic!sics.se!sics.se!psm From: psm@sics.se (Peter Magnusson) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: <<< Date: 26 Jul 91 09:28:43 GMT References: <91204.161453JOHNFW@SLACVM.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> <4360@ux.acs.umn.edu> Sender: news@sics.se Followup-To: alt.alien.visitors Organization: Swedish Institute of Computer Science, Kista Lines: 31 In-Reply-To: oleary@ux.acs.umn.edu's message of 24 Jul 91 05: 45:06 GMT >>>>> In article <4360@ux.acs.umn.edu>, oleary@ux.acs.umn.edu (Doc O'Leary) writes: oleary> In article <91204.161453JOHNFW@SLACVM.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> JOHNFW@SLACVM.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU writes, among other things: > Greeting in the "Light of Our Infinite One. I AM Kla-La. In >speaking at this time, we deal with the subject of your Great Pyramid. >In the beginning, approximately 45,600 years before your Christ, the >Galactic Survey ships of the Confederation were to establish an out- >post and beacon upon your planet earth. oleary> oleary> The first pyramid-like structure was built circa 2,800 B.C. and resembled the oleary> Great Ziggurat at Ur (stepped). The Great Pyramid at Giza was constructed oleary> some two hundred years later, making your claim only, oh, 43,000 years out oleary> of wack. oleary> --------- Doc oleary> P.S.: I particularly liked the part about the stones being "cut and sliced oleary> and shaped . . . to infinite dimensions." I'll be giggling over it oleary> for the rest of the week :-). Actually, the time (ca 2700 BC) is only inferred from the hieroglyphs on the nearby burial temples. There are no inscriptions or remains in the Great Pyramid itself that indicate its age. I'm certainly no adherent to the most paranormal flavours, but I'm surprised that no Pyramid-fan ever makes use of this fact. Peter Magnusson psm@sics.se Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!usc!apple!spies!blake From: bbs.blake@doomsday.Spies.COM (Blake) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Ha! Keywords: Ha! Message-ID: <470e72w164w@doomsday.Spies.COM> Date: 9 Aug 91 20:24:14 GMT References: <1991Aug03.014554.1086@disk.uucp> Sender: news@Spies.COM Organization: Spies in the wire, (408) 867-7400 Lines: 131 Nntp-Posting-Host: doomsday.spies.com Finally! Somebody with the guts to express a real opinion! I just HAVE to follow up on this one. Shawn Beltz writes: > I beleive the earth has been visited by other intelligent races... But > that's an OPINION. Here's another opinion: A perfectly valid opinion, considering the number of accounts of sightings over the ages. > For as many years as there have been human beings, there has been some > form or religion. All these religions can be summed up in one phrase, > "Safety in Numbers".. We were afraid of change, afraid of the unknown. I have to disagree with this one. Mister Beltz starts his account a bit too late. After all, religion was around long before that, and started as an explanation of the unexplainable. "Safety in numbers" coule NOT have come about until the human population increased. As for "fear of the unknown", Mister Beltz makes human history seem like an era of fear. Though many religions capitalize on fear, that is certainly not their basis. I seriously doubt if preachers or teachers were more scared than peasants or serfs, certainly not the high priests and priestesses of earlier times. > ...[LINES DELETED]... > Different religions evolved when the original ones became obsolete in > covering the truth. Nowadays, religion, beleif groups, and culture have > totally covered up these visits, to the point where people who have the > potential to learn and be aware of all around them ignore even the > simplest of facts, because they don't fit into their critereon of reality. Here you make it look like religion is all lies designed to cover the truth. Why should people fear the truth that much? Isn't it more probable that the leaders of these different religions were like the rest of us, with egos, arrogance, and all our other human drawbacks? Wow! What a concept! That the more arrogant of them tried the hardest to keep change from entering their belief system, from admitting that they were wrong. Wars develop over this,. > We have to cut through the religion, and soon. We have to look through > the myth, and realize that the same voice has been muffled all through our > history! If you are only willing to open your eyes, you will see. There > is a new breed in the young people today. A select few have been able to > realize that we have to look at things truly objectively. You cannot > classify something totally unexplicable, yet that is what we have been > doing since our creation. If there are any other civilizations out there, > there is no proof they have done any better than us. If you are familiar > with communion, or stories of the greys and blonds and the other visitors, > you will understand that even though they hold a power over us (seemingly) > there is no reason why we cannot stop that. again, it's our subconcious > training, our religion and superstition that holds us back. You are the > only one that can make decisions and observe and reason. We have become > lazy. Technology has made us lazy. When I was young, I was extremely > bright and interested in all of the sciences. I still am, but there is > now a conflict inside of me. I beleive that the human mind is capable of > anything, even without tools and science, yet on the other hand I have a > love for science and creation. I beleive science can explain everything, > if we make science fit the truth, not bend the truth to fit science. If > anyone is listening out there, anyone who has waded through tons of > irrelevant BS and lies, and alot of the truth and observations by other > people who have experienced anything strange, listen to this. Our science > has helped us evolve, and our curiousity has led us to great hights, but > the time has come to accept the world as it is. Some people go to work > with the aim of proving that their studies support their religion. Others > go out to disprove others theories and improve their own. But we have to > set out to seek the truth simply for the fact that it is the truth. We > have to accept the universe as it is, unbiased and ready to learn things > we may not think we are ready for. We have to be ready to evolve. For a > while now humans have been devolving. Our machines and medicine and some > of our technology have just made it more difficult to realize our > potential. Everything we have developed so far has for the most part been > to cure us of the side effects of our false beliefs. Our religion has > taught us to mourn death, so we develop medicine to stop people from > dying. Belief has made us weak. We look for our answers in the very same > place we find our problems. We have pollution from industry and > carelessness, so we look to further industry and make it easier to not > pollute. So now instead of thinking that we must save the enviornment, > people just know they can get paid to recycle, and get rewarded for > recycling paper plates, when they needn't use them at all. One of the > things in religion I beleive is the most ignorant is the coming of the > Antichrist. The antichrist, I suggest, is change. Radical, permanent > change that religion is afraid of. Change that will make all of our > accomplishments useless. It's when brimstone falls from the sky, that > reality aw we blindly perceive it will be wiped away, and we'll have to > look at the blinding, radiant truth of it all. The antichrist is change, > it's the turning away from religion and towards the truth. When we can > look right into our myth and our history, and realize that we were wrong. > When we can admit we were wrong, then we can go forward. Sort of like > accepting our mistakes and starting anew. For some people, the brimstone > will fall, and the fires of hell will burn them, and they will hallucinate > that they are going to wherever there religion tells them they will. But > maybe us few who can change will see this "End" for what it really is, a > new beginning. Perhaps we will be able to witness the birth of a whole > new world, a whole new life, a whole new reality. Ok, you sound like a preacher here. Religion is NOT a conspiracy, and science can NOT explain everything, that much is obvious. Science is as much a religion as all the other faiths, and scientists have the same arrogance as the preachers. Look at people like Joe Newman, who built a motor which could supposedly run indefinitely on a dead battery, but was unwilling to make any changes to the theory that he developed around the motor. Science is simply the belief that one can figure out anything, provided they get enough information. It says nothing about perspective, and is very reliant on the interpretation of the data. Mister Beltz blames technology for our growing laziness, and says we're afraid of change. Well, considering our rate of development, it seems we're not THAT afraid. Science is as much to blame for arrogance and unwillingness to change as religion, though science happens to exist in an era of pressure for development of new ideas, DRIVEN by the very engine of capitalism that Mister Beltz criticizes. The problem here is perspective. We're stuck down in this mess, and refuse to see over it. I say this from experience. One just has to see that NO, everything CAN'T be explained, at least not now. There are some concepts in the world that are simply ABSTRACT... (Wow, what a concept!) And theories are MODELS, not explanations. None of them will be complete, ever. But life is working toward a closer model. All the different fields of study are closer than one might think, and the distinctions between them are fuzzy. Just remember: The universe is made of fuzz, mostly satchel lint. -- Sean R. Lynch | Internet: Blake | "Standard by twelve, 13665 Long Ridge Rd. | bbs.blake@doomsday.Spies.COM | Mister Crusher." Los Gatos, CA 95030 | Home Phone: (408) 353-1217 | Blake is innocent! Path: ns-mx!uunet!spool.mu.edu!agate!boulder!spot.Colorado.EDU!clarkbr From: clarkbr@spot.Colorado.EDU (CLARK BRIAN R) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: OH Krill Message-ID: <1991Aug10.064459.2450@colorado.edu> Date: 10 Aug 91 06:44:59 GMT Sender: news@colorado.edu (The Daily Planet) Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder Lines: 21 Nntp-Posting-Host: spot.colorado.edu I read the OH Krill file posted recently by Don Allen, and would like to pose a question to all interested, in particular Mr. Allen. How can we assess the credibility of UFO information? The OH Krill file was posted with the caveat that it is held in low esteem by the UFO community; for what reasons is this so? How can the would-be investigator separate the possible truth from the probable bullshit? Those with experience in separating the wheat from the chaff would help the rest of us by sharing their experience. Or is there no way of avoiding the dis-information? Don, you have the floor... That's my two-cents worth. Spell-checked and everything. Brian -- "Humor is the contemplation of the finite from the point of view of the infinite." - Christian Morgenstern (1871-1914) Path: ns-mx!uunet!cis.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!csn!scicom!mcorbin From: mcorbin@scicom.ALPHACDC.COM (Michael Corbin) Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal Subject: Belgium UFO (Long) Keywords: Belgium UFO ParaNet Message-ID: <13761@scicom.ALPHACDC.COM> Date: 9 Aug 91 13:27:31 GMT Followup-To: poster Organization: Paranet Information Service, Denver, Co. Lines: 868 Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:13664 alt.alien.visitors:1655 alt.paranormal:2440 This file was provided by ParaNet(sm) Information Service and its network of international affiliates. You may freely distribute this file as long as this header remains intact. Date Prepared: August 8, 1991 Contributed by: Center for UFO Studies/Mark Rodeghier ============================================================ For further information on ParaNet(sm), contact: Michael Corbin ParaNet Information Service P.O. Box 172 Wheatridge, CO 80034-0172 or FidoNet 1:104/422 Internet mcorbin@scicom.alphacdc.com =========================================================== (C) 1991 by the J. Allen Hynek Center for UFO Studies. Reprinted on ParaNet with permission. Excerpted from the IUR, May/June, 1991; Volume 16, Number 3. This header must not be removed from this file. ============================================================ THE BELGIAN SIGHTINGS by Auguste Meessen - - Auguste Meessen is professor of physics at the Catholic University of Louvain. This article, which first appeared in the November 1990 issue of Inforespace, is reprinted by permission. It was translated by Andrea Donderi, Mark Rodeghier, and W. D. Milner. ================================================================= The sightings that occurred in Belgium between November 1989 and June 1990 have given us an impressive body of new data. We have even been able to study in detail material from both military and civilian ground radar screens. Moreover, an in-depth examination of on-board radar data from one of the F-16s sent up by the Belgian Air Force during the night of March 30-31, 1990, is currently under way. As far as I know, this is the first such opportunity in the world, but much remains to be done. I shall therefore only give an overview of this research. I shall outline what we are doing and briefly describe our methods. I shall also include some remarks on the unwarranted generalizations that are still too frequently encountered (from skeptics) and on the reactions of eyewitnesses in the current socio-psychological climate in European ufology. Finally, I shall present a few reports of sightings made in Belgium and abroad. One case in particular, the enormous lozenge-shaped object that flew over the outskirts of the town of Eupen on December 1, 1989, is representative of the quality and importance of the new information. In assessing reports it is important to be aware of what has been happening in other countries, so I shall include a few foreign cases that suggest the wave of sightings may not be over. Ground investigations At the beginning of December 1989 I joined the SOBEPS (Societe Belge d'Etude des Phenomenes Spatiaux) investigation. It was vital to familiarize myself personally with the number and quality of the eyewitness reports. I concentrated almost exclusively on the Eupen region, of which I am a native. I hoped that my fluency in German and my profession as a physicist would help loosen people's tongues. I have noted that many eyewitnesses, and particularly the most reliable ones with important social responsibilities, are reluctant to discuss what they have seen because of irrational socio-psychological pressures. The evening of November 29, 1989, was decisive, because two Eupen police officers had the courage to describe on television the UFO they had painstakingly observed. There were several other sightings that same day. I shall be compiling a list of them in the book that SOBEPS is planning to publish. I have discovered a series of eyewitness accounts that form a coherent sequence in time and space that day. The sightings made by Mr. J (more on which later) provide one example of what can be learned from these witnesses. In my opinion, data of these kinds, when taken together with the whole body of sightings worldwide, pose a challenge to the scientific community and to every thoughtful person. Journalists have had an especially important role. Some of them have performed their work conscientiously, but others were simply seeking sensational stories. Yet more felt obliged to lead a personal crusade against the gathering of eyewitness reports. I will cite just one example whose immediate effects I observed. A few days after December 18, 1989, a gendarme in the Eupen area refused to tell me what he had seen, probably because on that date a local daily paper had published an article which asserted that the "most plausible explanation" for UFO sightings was that the U. S. Air Force was secretly testing F-117A planes over Belgium. This article was preceded by the impressive headline "Explanation from Washington," and the subheading referred to a "hysteria" of UFO sightings. I was sent a copy of this paper the same day and immediately inquired into the matter, since these stories also form an aspect of the UFO phenomenon. It turned out that the "explanation" was only speculation, put forward by the Flemish paper Het Laatste Nieuws. I phoned the journalist who wrote the article that triggered off a rumor which is still causing much ink to be spilt. He explained that he had just read an article on the F-117A and wished to pass on such information to his readers. To make his article more interesting, he had suggested (gratuitously, with no reference to the actual sightings) that there might be a possible connection with recent sightings in Belgium. In the meantime, I had learned from Lt. Col. De Brouwer, Chief of Operations of the Belgian Air Force, that the Air Force had sought information from the American Embassy to help them explain the reports. This should not have been necessary if the sightings were caused by secret exercises, as De Brouwer routinely would have been informed of any such overflights. Instead, he took the trouble to secure accurate information about what the many Belgian eyewitnesses had really seen. Learning that an official American disclaimer was to be published, I telephoned the Eupen journalist to tell him the news and to ask him to publish a correction as soon as possible. When I asked him why he had spoken of "an explanation from Washington" and characterized the eyewitness accounts of local people as "hysterical " he responded, "I am against all that." I appreciate his candor, but that does not square with the regard for objectivity one expects of journalists. Such attitudes constitute disinformation and serve to dissuade eyewitnesses; they make the search for truth more difficult. The search for more objective information Having convinced myself of the reality and importance of the wave of UFO sightings in our country, I concluded that it would have been scientifically irresponsible to ignore this wave without trying to find out what had turned up on our country's radar screens. I did not know how to gain access to the data, but I felt that reason would eventually prevail. Since early December 1989 I had been in contact with Lt. Col. De Brouwer at the Headquarters of the Belgian Air Force, requesting that any radar documentation be preserved for a thorough scientific study. Shortly afterwards I sent a similar written request to Guy Coeme, Minister of National Defense. I also met the head of the air traffic control at Zaventem, the Brussels airport. I learned that he and his associates preserve recordings of radar data for several weeks on magnetic tape in the event of any inquiries relating to air safety. I therefore addressed a written request to Mr. Vandenbroucke, the General Manager of the Airlines Administration, for permission to videotape certain excerpts. These would be restricted to sequences selected on the basis of the number of fairly close- range and reliable UFO sightings. The goal was to verify whether there had been any suspicious radar traces before or after the sighting times, given that the UFOs were doubtless below the radar coverage at the time of very low-altitude sightings. Although the response was delayed, a call to Vanenbroucke brought immediate cooperation. I convey my warm thanks to him and to the Chief Engineer and the technical radar personnel of our national airport for their effective support, which proved useful. In consequence I have been able to film and analyze more than 180 hours of data from the Bertem radar installation, which serves Zaventem airport. In brief, two surprising and significant discoveries emerged from this material. I shall describe them later. One of these discoveries concerned the fact that echoes of unidentified origin often moved along linear trajectories of limited length. This perplexed me. I continued to collect as many data as possible, refusing to adopt any particular hypothesis. Furthermore, it was vital to analyze these data quickly so that I could assimilate their essential characteristics and determine what was worth studying more closely. In fact, I was involved in a race against time, since the magnetic tapes were retained only for a few weeks. Any potentially important material that I failed to save would be lost forever. I also hoped to gain access to the military radar documentation, although I knew this would be more difficult. An increasingly close and productive collaboration had developed with Lt. Col. De Brouwer and with Lt. Col. Billen, Chief of the Glons radar installation. They shared my profound conviction that an in-depth study was required, both to understand better the UFO phenomenon and to elucidate the mysterious phenomenon that I had discovered, probably of atmospheric origin. During this stage of the investigation an important event occurred. I knew that the Belgian Air Force planned to scramble F-16 fighters in cases where UFO sightings were reported by reliable eyewitnesses with additional confirmation by other evidence. These conditions seemed to have been met during the night of March 30-31, 1990. Although I was notified at an early stage, I had to wait for the Air Force's preliminary evaluation of the data before learning anything more. For my part, I kept Lt. Col. De Brouwer informed about my research on the data from the Bertem radar. He saw the benefit of checking these data against those from the military radar at Semmerzake. I was accordingly authorized to go there and obtain extracts from these tapes. The information regarding the events of the night of March 30-31 remained inaccessible since an Air Force investigation was underway, but we were making progress all the same. The Semmerzake data were more accurate and detailed than those I already had. Consequently, I was able to compare the data from the Semmerzake military radar with those from the Bertem civil radar, whose echoes are instantaneously transmitted to Semmerzake. They are subject to even less filtering than on the air controllers' screens at Zaventem airport. I could thus establish the coordinates and other characteristics of each individual echo. The analysis was laborious but made it possible to decisively confirm the preliminary conclusions drawn from the video films taken at Zaventem. After the release of the Air Force report in the summer of 1990, there were irrational reactions on the part of some French media. Lt. Col. De Brouwer responded by supplying more information, hoping to demonstrate that the situation was more complex and better documented than many supposed, and that it merited further analysis. He resolutely followed an open-minded policy. Some journalists had labeled the military "The Great Mute"; by contrast, Lt. Col. De Brouwer maintained that "we have nothing to hide in this matter." I can attest to his deep honesty and courage. After talking with a reporter from Paris Match (July 5, 1990, issue), De Brouwer also allowed some members of SOBEPS to see an extract from the video film of the on-board radar from one of the F-16s. The series of photos we were authorized to take enabled me to make a preliminary assessment, and I realized then the extremely strange nature of these data. Having made considerable headway in interpreting some of the initial radar data, 1 could see that the same explanation would not work for these astonishing observations. In order to go further, I needed the express permission of the Minister of National Defense. Since my written request had met with no response, probably because of bureaucratic inertia, I decided to telephone the Minister, Guy Coeme. His response was almost immediate: "I believe in openness." This was, I think, a historic attitude. In any event, it was an exemplary action, from which other countries will soon, I hope, draw inspiration. After this everything went like clockwork, albeit one whose hands moved slowly. For instance, I received the data from the Glons radar for the main events of March 30-31, 1990, on November 2, fully seven months later. The appropriate permissions had all been granted, but other military missions (in particular, the Gulf crisis and the intervention in Rwanda) took precedence compared to UFO investigations. Still, there can be a real advantage to letting ideas settle for a while. At present thorough studies are being undertaken in complete collaboration with an officer-engineer of the Belgian Air Force. I do not wish to name him so as to prevent him from being besieged with inquiries. The conclusions of our study will be published but only when this can be done in a responsible manner. The fundamental results Almost continually, radar screens show sporadic echoes not correlated with aircraft. Radar operators call these echoes "angels"as if they were pure spirits. For them the echoes constitute annoying "noise" and are ignored as much as possible. A priori they could just as easily be UFOs as natural phenomena. They appear only occasionally, all over the screen. An air traffic controller cannot afford to waste time and attention on them. When I systematically recorded the positions in which these "angels" appeared, however, I noted that they often moved in practically straight lines. I have labeled this the "flying angels effect." The average speed of this movement is low relative to that of aircraft (about 50 km/h). There are random fluctuations, but the mean speed is well-defined. The lines of motion are of limited length, and their direction of motion is not correlated with the wind. Furthermore they can appear (perhaps even more often) when the sky is clear. The Semmerzake radar could locate the physical position of the radar returns. As the data accumulated, it became evident that this phenomenon could not involve UFOs. It had to be an atmospheric problem, albeit a fairly special one, since the radar operators whom I consulted had not noticed this effect. A comprehensive survey of the literature indicated that this phenomenon had not been described either. I have finally discovered an explanation based on known physical principles and on some independent data. It will be described elsewhere when I have had time to verify it further. The "flying angels effect" is undoubtedly of atmospheric origin. My second main finding was that I found no reliable traces associated with eyewitness accounts of UFO sightings, even when I examined the traces over a wide range of times and places. I knew, however, that there had been previous cases of radar detection of UFOs. The evidence in these cases seems to be acceptable (and cannot be explained by the "flying angels" phenomenon). Given the lack of radar confirmation in Belgium, it would be easy to put forward one or the other of these two simplistic hypotheses: either the witnesses saw nothing of a material nature, or F-117 Stealth aircraft were involved. But neither one nor the other hypothesis takes into account the whole range of what was observed. The UFOs sighted in Belgium were usually described as platforms, either stationary or moving horizontally. This is sufficient to explain the low probability of detection by ground radars. The radar beams would be reflected back as if by a horizontal mirror. The same technique is used for the F-117A Stealth plane. On several occasions the UFOs had been described as having a vertical edge and a dome on top. Seen laterally or from above, as from an aircraft, radar detection might therefore be easier. So an F-16 might possibly detect a UFO of this kind, if the surfaces were not made of radar-absorbent material. This presents new questions, since if UFOs are extraterrestrial, why are their shapes now different from previously reported objects? Could they have adapted their craft's shape in order to evade our detection systems, or is it just a coincidence, resulting from the fact that this batch of visitors come from somewhere else? As for the data from the F-16 on-board radar, which operates differently from ground radars and can record different kinds of data, I can only say, for the time being, that they are astonishing. In particular, there are abrupt changes in speed as well as other strange features. This calls for a technical, far- reaching, and careful study. We have made a start. I don't know what conclusion we will reach, nor when we shall reach it. The views of Science & Vie With a few rare exceptions, the French media's coverage of the Belgian UFO sightings has not been distinguished by its objectivity. Some writers did not hesitate to quite openly make fun of the "little Belgians" and their "tales " but we shall see who laughs last. What surprised me most was the fact that the magazine Science & Vie (Science & Life) had launched a sort of anti-UFO crusade. I have often admired this magazine's articles of scientific popularization. It has, in the past, taken a clear responsibility for public's scientific education. It is all the more deplorable, then, that in this area it traffics in irrational, unscientific polemics. The only advantage may be to document the fact for future generations that at the end of the 20th Century people reacted in this fashion, in spite of the lessons that they could have drawn from the history of science. When there is a conflict between a new kind of fact and the established conceptual framework, people tend to hang on to preconceived ideas. What does not fit in with the theories that are regarded as unshakable is filtered out or repressed. People refuse to face reality. So far as UFOs are concerned, the method consists of selecting some facts that can be explained, it is thought, in a conventional manner. Then it is believed that this result can be extrapolated, without any effort's being made to examine the rest of the data. This leads to what can be termed unwarranted generalizations. In its January 1990 issue (No. 868), Science & Vie showed no hesitation in discrediting all the Belgian eyewitnesses on the basis of just one photograph. This photo, taken near Eupen, showed a big luminous dot. The photographers submitted the photo to SOBEPS, along with several others from the same event. Even though the photo had little to do with the many eyewitness sightings, it could have been given an detailed analysis. Instead, the editorial team of Science & Vie preferred an unsupported interpretation, strongly suggesting that all eyewitness reports smacked of "poetry" or optical illusions. In the June issue (No. 813) the magazine provided information about the F-I 17A Stealth aircraft. This sort of information had just been made public by the U.S. Air Force. The title of the article-"The UFO: This Is It," showing an example of an F- 117A- speaks volumes about the magazine's commercial rather than scientific intentions. Again, it insinuated that all the witnesses must have been mistaken, like the Belgian Air Force. The author of this article and everyone involved clearly felt no need to conduct on-the-spot inquiries in order to obtain more information and acquire an objective view of the facts. The October issue (No. 877) of Science & Vie announced on its first page that it was "on the track of the Belgian UFOs." In fact, the author was concerned only with the events of March 30- 31, 1990, and the involvement of the Belgian Air Force. Apparently he felt that this constituted the core of the matter, and that by debunking it he could dispose of the whole story. He considered only the initial reports, which contained raw, unanalyzed information. The author of the article is intelligent and able, but his method resembled more that of a lawyer defending a specific brief than that of a scientist representing the quest for truth. After the press conference given by Lt. Col. De Brouwer, the F-I 17A hypothesis had been discredited, but that need be no obstacle; plenty of other hypotheses can be constructed. Why not suggest the existence of another secret plane, with all the capabilities necessary to explain the apparent paradoxes? Perhaps the U.S. Air Force was testing this secret plane over Belgium without notifying the Belgian Air Force -a friendly nation which uses American F- 16s. Does this seem practical or likely? Consider that testing new planes inevitably involves the risk of an accident or crash, in which case the Belgian authorities would have to be notiFied to help protect essential secrets. Why not suggest that the Belgian police were so unaccustomed to seeing stars that they got all confused at the sight of some? Or, above all, that there is no supporting evidence to back up any of the Belgian sightings, even though there were more than a thousand reports and they went on for more than six months? Following this line of reasoning, everything is for the best in the "best of all possible worlds" in which profounder questions must not be asked. On the contrary, it seems to me that it's always a good idea to be guided by the Facts, especially when they are unexpected. What thousands of witnesses have seen for many years throughout the world deserves serious study. I am not advocating a specific hypothesis, only asking people to open their eyes. The witnesses' reactions Witnesses' reactions are diverse, as might be expected. In most cases people simply relate what has happened in a factual manner, being explicit about what they have been able to observe and confessing their perplexity. What now seems to me to be new and significant is that many witnesses are annoyed at not being taken seriously. As regards the socio-psychological hypothesis, which explains UFO sightings by the desire to make contact with extraterrestrial beings, I do not believe that this is compatible with my experiences interviewing a fairly sizable number of witnesses. Naturally there are pathological and even psychiatric cases, but let us again refrain from unwarranted extrapolations. I have noted, like other investigators, that at the outset of their strange sightings, witnesses practically always try to find a conventional explanation; as they take in more details, though, the conventional explanation no longer suffices. This reaction violates a basic assumption of some "socio-psychologists." It is true that witnesses are quicker to think of a UFO after the media have told them other people have seen them, and they report sightings more readily once they know that organizations are studying UFO reports seriously. Some people have intentionally scanned the skies, but they have not necessarily seen anything. It is absolutely normal for someone to filter and analyze sensory data on the basis of pre-existing conceptual models. What happens when there is a discrepancy? Some witnesses describe extraordinary events, repeating that they do not believe in UFOs. Perhaps they're trying to reassure themselves, perhaps they're afraid of seeming insane to the interviewers. On several occasions I have met witnesses who, although accepting the ET hypothesis, are visibly upset about these "intruders." Humanity could be defenseless and dependent on the goodwill of an unknown, technologically very superior, external power. I have met only one witness who told me in a confiding manner: "I should very much like to meet them." He said this spontaneously when I asked him what he thought of his sighting. Reality is far less clear-cut than the supporters of the socio-psychological hypothesis imagine. The collective unconscious does not, for the most part, desire contact with extraterrestrials. We cannot assume we are dealing with religious beliefs, either. On the contrary, it is clear that a fairly sizable number of witnesses have no wish at all to communicate what they have observed. We know this because of the cases discovered entirely by chance and long after the fact. The 1989- 90 Belgian wave encouraged a number of people to tell investigators about much earlier sightings. One man wrote to me describing a sighting made during the mobilization before World War II, when he was all alone on a road. He was so excited and frightened by the experience that he told no one except his wife. A member of an embassy told me of a sighting made aboard an aircraft with many other people. Afterwards, he asked me not to say anything about it to the other embassy personnel, saying, "They'll think me crazy." The fact that the UFOs reported here are generally of a different type from the traditional "saucer" is also significant. If the witnesses had invented their accounts, they would probably have tried to make them seem more believable by corresponding to the standard model. This is not what happened. One new feature is that the Belgian UFOs travel over cities at very low altitudes. Moreover, there were no marked electromagnetic disturbances, as has often been reported in the past. These differences are worth considering with a view to understanding the technology rather than simply assuming that the witnesses can't relate accurately what they've seen. An enormous lozenge at Eupen Mr. J observed the same type of object twice. I heard of his sightings indirectly, and when I telephoned him, he firmly insisted on anonymity: "I don't want anyone to tell my children that their father was out of his mind." He told me that the machine he had seen was "incredibly large." This assessment was based on his first sighting, which was on December 1, 1989. I visited him on January 15, five days after his second sighting. He is an amateur photographer and described the UFO with the precision of a careful observer. On the evening of December 1, he was going to take his wife to a private exhibition organized by his club. At around 5 p.m. two of his five children, aged 14 and 15, had already told him about "strange planes in the sky." After school they had been playing on the street with a Moroccan boy who lived in one of the neighboring houses. It was already growing dark and one of the children said, "They're UFOs," using the German word for UFO. Mr. J had replied, "Of course not, they must be planes." At 6:50 Mr. J was ready to leave. He was sitting in the living room in his usual chair near a window that looks out on a terrace at the rear. At that moment one of his children came rushing up all excited, saying, "Look, they're here again!" Struck by his child's insistence, Mr. J rose and went out onto the terrace. This forms, together with the garden, a large L- shaped open space behind a cluster of houses. Mr. J saw the young Moroccan, who was at the back garden of his house, in the other branch of L, pointing at the sky and stating, "See, one's just coming." Mr. J told me, "I don't understand how this boy could say that so calmly, as if it was a commonplace remark, because I almost fell over backwards when I looked up. I tell you that if you have not seen one, you cannot believe it. It was enormous." Mr. J then spontaneously set about drawing the object, which was lozenge-shaped, with two white lights at each corner and, in the center, a kind of illuminated bell projecting from the platform (figure 1). The surface of the object was dark but clearly visible against the brighter sky. It had been a sunny day, and the sky was perfectly clear. Stars were visible around the object. It glided slowly from southwest to northeast, without the slightest sound. It could be followed at a comfortable walking pace. The large diagonal of the lozenge was perpendicular to the direction of movement and was at least 35 meters long. During my visit Mr. J went onto the terrace to show me his reference marks. The nearest end of the large diagonal had been directly above his house and the other end had passed above a large building 350 meters away. He was unable to determine the altitude of the object, but he noticed that he could see the sky between the object and the building opposite. As a result he felt that the object could have been even larger than the distance between his house and the building. A little later on, Mr. J reported that the white lights flashed off and on regularly. I asked him whether they did this at the same time. He replied, "I don't know. I couldn't see the four corners simultaneously. I had to crane my neck." These lights were circular and large. "The most extraordinary thing about them was their power," he said. They illuminated the ground with a white light. In the center of the lozenge was an "inverted bell" which was wholly illuminated by an orange light. At the bell's apex was a green light, darker than green traffic lights. The skirt of the bell was surrounded by a row of red lights, changing brightness sequentially. This gave a false impression of revolving lights. "These lights never completely went out, but they grew distinctly brighter at certain moments." The lights did not illuminate the underside of the object, which remained dark. The red lights "chased each other" with a slow, comfortable movement. "It wasn't an alarming flash, like that from an ambulance or police car. It was even pleasant to watch." Mr. J also remembered that "the luminous bell was strange, because you couldn't tell whether the light came from its interior or the surface." Since the witness was an amateur photographer, he considered going to find his camera but realized it was too big to capture adequately. Knowing that he had 100 ASA film loaded, he gauged that the mass of the object, which was almost black, would not be made out on film since the white lights were too dazzling. He did what he could. "I tried to remember as much as possible. I also called my wife and daughter so that someone from my family could see it." Mrs. J did not see the object. She heard her husband but was in the bath. His daughter arrived after the object was already some way off, having passed over the roofs of the houses. Mr. J went with her to the front, where they stayed long enough to see the object leave, still at a fairly slow speed, passing over the Eupen cemetery. Mr. J bitterly regrets not having taken photos. Since then he has been to Aix-la-Chapelle to buy infrared film, which he keeps in the refrigerator. The young Moroccan came over while Mr. J was drawing his picture for me. He said, unasked, "Yes, it's like that." The vertical edge (on figure 1) was not visible on December 1. Mr. J drew it based on his second sighting. This second sighting took place on Wednesday, January 10, 1990, at about 1:35 p.m. It was dark. The witness, on his way to a photo club, had taken the E5 highway after reaching the Herbesthal road and was proceeding inland. He had gone only a few kilometers when he saw a stationary object in the sky. It was exactly "the same model." Mr. J stopped his car on the side of the road. Other drivers seemed not to notice anything. Mr. J leaned on the hood of his car, watching the object with arms crossed. Everything was identical to the first sighting, but on this occasion the lozenge was oriented sideways, and he could see it had a constant and considerable height. It was about 500 meters away. Its lights seemed less bright this time, perhaps because of the highway illumination. Mr. J was exasperated that he hadn't brought his camera. There would probably be no point in returning home. After 10-15 minutes the object started to move off toward Fagnes. It left slowly and silently. Just as it was departing the luminosity increased. "It was as though the voltage of the lights had been intensified as it moved gently away." It may seem strange that Mr. J saw the same object twice. It should, however, not be forgotten that the events of December 1 had been deeply etched in his memory; as a consequence, his mental "filters" would have been adjusted in such a way that he would more easily notice a similar object in the sky at night. I have no reason to doubt this eyewitness report. His sincerity and spontaneity were evident. The witness had spoken with only a few people and had learned to be cautious. "I have seen many things in my life," he said, "but when I talk about this, people look at me oddly." A UFO flies over Aix-la-Chapelle On December 5 or 12, 1989, Mr. and Mrs. O were driving northward on the Triererstrasse in the town of Aix-la-Chapelle. It was about 9:50 p.m. when they suddenly saw a flying object cut across the road right in front of them. It moved steadily to the right. It had two headlights in front, emitting beams that slanted downwards. The light was white and intense without being blinding. In addition, there was an orange light on the underside, Dashing at the same rate as an ambulance's lights. Mr. O was driving and had to pay attention to traffic, but Mrs. O continued to observe what they still thought was an aircraft flying exceptionally low. She kept it constantly in sight. When it had crossed the road, it extinguished its headlights, but the flashing orange light remained illuminated. This made it possible to see that the object was describing a half-turn on a tight curve, heading back in the opposite direction. Mrs. O first saw it through the front right-hand window. Then she turned around to look at it through the back rear window. The object approached again, passed over the car, and reappeared in the front left-hand window. It had cut across the road diagonally. At a certain distance from the car, its headlights came on again. Since the headlights were at the front of the object, they could no longer be seen directly, but the beams that they emitted were visible. Unlike an aircraft, there were no rear lights or flashing red and green side-lights. All that could be seen was the flashing orange light, which became fainter and fainter as the craft went away. Mr. and Mrs. O returned to their home, near Aix-la-Chapelle. That same evening, at 11:15 p.m., Mr. O stepped outside to let the dog out and noticed exactly the same object. It was flying above their street, in the direction of Stollberg. Mr. O immediately called his wife. The headlight beams were less angled than they had been before, but the machine was flying lower. Its motion was linear and uniform, with a speed about that of a helicopter, but to the great astonishment of the witnesses it made no sound. Mrs. O was insistent about the absence of noise, for conditions were such that she and her husband ought to have heard it had the craft been equipped with a motor. I asked them later about the apparent size of the object, suggesting that a thumb held at arm's length might cover it. The immediate response was, "No, it would have required a whole hand." The sighting occurred fairly late, so the sky was dark. The object stood out clearly against it, because it was somewhat brighter. The witnesses saw an elongated shape, less high than long, with curved edges. The outlines were different from those of an aircraft or helicopter. The hypothesis of night gliders or ultralights is not very credible, particularly in the case of the first sighting. The next day a police car passed down the street, its loud-speaker requesting those who had seen "anything abnormal" to report it to them. Mr. and Mrs. O did not do so. Were there other witnesses? They do not know, because they don't read the local paper. Mr. O, who is Japanese, subscribes to a Cologne daily paper and the Financial Times. I was alerted to this case by Mrs. O's sister, who lives in Eupen. The German police habitually ridicule UFO witnesses, so it is not surprising that Mr. and Mrs. O didn't want to report their sighting. I also conducted an inquiry into a close encounter involving two German families living in Lontzen, in Belgium on November 29. The children involved were frightened, so one of the mothers called various places, including the Aix-la-Chapelle police. She told me that they laughed at her and that their derisive response had shocked her. A triangular UFO at Coblenz The following case was described in the July-August 1990 issue of the Journal fur UFO-Forschung (Journal for UFO Research) of the GEP group (Society for the Investigation of the UFO phenomenon), based in Ludencheid, Germany. The investigation was carried out by W. Kelch. This case is interesting in itself, since it involves the sighting of a triangle in another country, but it also has interesting psychological aspects. The principal witness, a 33-year-old woman, works at a military base and seems to have a solid character. The sighting took place on the evening of February 21, 1990, at 9:07 p.m., in Karthause, near Coblenz. The lady was returning home by car, accompanied by her mother (aged 69) and her son (aged 14), who had been to a judo lesson. They were driving through an attractive residential district on a fairly wide road. To the right was a continuous line of trees 15-18 meters in height, bordering a cemetery. The left-hand side of the road was fringed with houses 20-25 meters high on a small hill. Through traffic is virtually nil and, at this late stage of the evening, there was no residential traffic. In fact, no car went by during the episode. The weather was cool and it was dark. The sky was clear. The mother was the first to see two lights beaming straight down at them at a 45-degree angle (figure 2a). The object bearing these lights slowed down, but the driver, fearing it might crash, pulled to the right side of the road. There she stopped, with the car at an angle. The object stopped above the road, almost directly overhead. The driver switched off the engine, lowered the window and looked out. She saw a large triangular object, absolutely stationary and noiseless, at rooftop height. From other reference points it was possible to determine that the sides of the triangle measured about 20 meters (figure 2b). The witnesses watched the object closely, but no one dared get out of the car. Three milky, yellowish-white lights were at the corners of the triangle. They were bright but not blinding. In the center of the triangle was a much larger light. Its color was changing but the prevailing hue was grey-blue. These changes seemed to imply something revolving, reminding the witnesses of the mirror-globes in discos. The witnesses said that "this light shone in a strange way." They saw only the lower side of the triangular platform. The object had a metallic appearance. It was dark-gray and colorless, with solid and sharp outlines The base was slightly illuminated by the lights on the object, allowing the witnesses to observe structures which they described as riveted plates (figure 2b). The object stayed overhead for two or three minutes then departed suddenly in the direction of the houses. The driver of the car felt a breeze through her rolled-down window. The object accelerated and disappeared from view in less than a second, behind the roofs of the houses. It had arrived from the west, but departed towards the southwest. Its departure was speedier than that of a jet aircraft. The witnesses then went home, and the woman immediately informed her husband, who was on nightshift. At first he was unwilling to believe her story but finally, at her insistence, called the local police. Although the police had not received any other calls, they agreed to send a police squad to the area. Her husband also called the air-traffic sections at the Frankfurt and Cologne-Wahn airports. They responded that radar detection was not possible at so low an altitude. The three witnesses were unable to sleep that night. The mother, feeling afraid, stayed in her daughter's apartment. Later on the wife tried to clear up the mystery on her own initiative. She found the address and telephone numbers of the GEP, who sent her a questionnaire which she completed and returned by mail. She succeeded in locating two other witnesses. Between 8:30 and 8:50 that same evening, a lady saw "something bright heading quite rapidly towards my car," near the intersection of the A61 and A48 highways. Frightened, she braked. Through the sunroof she saw a bus-shaped metallic object with fairly bright, bluish lights. The object went by noiselessly, disappearing finally in the dark. A UFO was also seen by a 30- year-old man, just before 9:07 p.m., near the same spot. When questioned, however, he distanced himself from the incident, saying, "Nobody's going to believe me anyway." When the GEP investigator contacted the police, they asserted that they could not recall having received any telephone calls about UFOs and that they knew nothing of the matter. The lady and her husband were annoyed by this denial. The investigator had the impression that the wife was a down-to-earth sort of individual. He found no discrepancy between her account and the questionnaire she had completed. So far as the witness was concerned, she had seen an unidentified flying object. The GEP tried to find a conventional explanation. A balloon was ruled out because there had been a light east wind and the object was first seen moving west to east. And how could it have turned around and left so fast? The police use BO-105 helicopters to patrol the highways for trucks, but this too was ruled out. Could it have been a military plane? There is in actual fact a military exercise ground (Schmitenhohe) two kilometers away, where German and NATO forces run nocturnal infrared reconnaissance flights and other exercises. But that night there had been no exercises. In Germany a CH-47 Chinook helicopter is often suggested as an explanation for UFO reports. Such aircraft are used between Mendig and Mainz, but the flights take place almost exclusively during the day at a height of 800-1000 meters. Taken as a whole, the evidence in this case renders that explanation unlikely. Nevertheless, the investigator thought it necessary to consider the possibility that the three witnesses were in shock and had perhaps not heard the noise, having been paralyzed by fear. The investigator thus concluded noncommittally that "the available data do not allow us to make an unambiguous identification as a known flying object." You can make what you like about this statement. Who is frightened? The witnesses by a somewhat hypothetical helicopter, or the investigator by social and psychological pressures? A recent sighting in Switzerland This event occurred on Sunday, October 14, 1990. The Swiss sighting was relayed to me by the witness, Mrs. Wengere, who has authorized me to cite her name. She telephoned me from Switzerland and confirmed her account in writing. An editor by profession, she was clearly looking for people who would listen seriously to such reports. She wrote to a Zurich paper and personally collected various recent eyewitness reports a copy of which she sent me. On the evening of October 14 she and her husband were on their way to a hospital to visit a friend. It was about 7 p.m., already dark, with stars easily visible. The sky was clear and there was no wind. They were driving from Lostdorf, near Olten, toward Zurich. Mrs. Wengere spotted two bright white lights. They were motionless, a little to the left ahead of them, over a range of mountains. The couple could not see light beams but only two large, luminous, perfectly round disks, surrounded by a light atmospheric halo. The left-hand light was higher than the right. Mrs. Wengere at first thought the lights must be on transmission towers on the mountaintops, although they would have to have been erected recently since she had never seen them before. There was still enough light in the sky for her to observe that there was nothing between the lights and the range of mountains. She thus deduced that the lights had to be supported by one or two flying objects whose shape was not discernible. She told her husband, "There's a UFO over there! " She asked him to stop. He saw the lights and could not explain them either, but he didn't stop because there was no parking space along the road and it would have been dangerous to stop in the dark. The bright lights must have been of excessive dimensions since the stars appeared minuscule and pale in comparison, as did the lights of an approaching aircraft. There was one approaching the UFO (figure 3a) at that very moment. If the lights were at the same distance as the plane, each of them ought to have been almost as large as the plane itself. Mrs. Wengere expected the object to react to the plane, but at that moment she and her husband were passing a village and lost sight of the object. They even had to wait for a red traffic light. When they once more had a clear view, the lights had disappeared. Mrs. Wengere was annoyed that her husband had not stopped when she had asked him to. He exclaimed, "Look, there they are again! " The lights were hanging a little higher in the sky, above the mountains to the right of the road. The new position and the previous location formed an angle of about 100 degrees. Since the witnesses had not observed the shift, this could have been another object entirely. In fact, they now noted a third light, identical to the first two, a little to the left of the others. It was separated from them by a distance almost 10 times as large as the distance between the other two lights, which were still stationary. The third light was at first motionless, but after some time it shifted slowly towards the others with a linear uniform speed. It stopped after having covered two-thirds of the distance that separated it from them (figure 3b). The other two lights began to move together, as if they were joined, their diagonal alignment becoming horizontal. The pair became smaller and less intense, but at the same time two chains of red and green lights appeared joining the two. The distance between them grew greater and eventually the two lights disappeared, leaving only the red and green crown of light visible. The third light also changed during this time it became fainter and acquired its own oval crown of small red and green lights. The vertical axis of the ellipse thus formed grew gradually longer, but the second crown was smaller than the first (figure 3c). The two witnesses thought that the chains of light were fixed to the sides of objects that were changing their tilt, but neither of them could actually see the objects. Followed by other vehicles, they continued to drive on. Mr. Wengere had slowed down only slightly. The lights were lost once again behind some houses, this time for good. The Wengeres were already aware of the UFO phenomenon as a result of a previous sighting. On July 20, 1989, at about 6:50 p.m., they had both been out in their garden. The sun was shining and the sky was cloudless. Mrs. Wengere noticed an elongated, silvery object. It moved like an aircraft, but she could see neither wings nor tail. It was simply cigar-shaped and completely silent. She pointed it out to her husband, who was equally surprised. Mrs. Wengere thought it so strange that ten minutes later she telephoned the air-traffic control at Zurich-Kloten airport. She learned that there had been no "official flight" at that time over her home and that nothing abnormal had been recorded on the radar screens. Mrs. Wengere was unable to stop thinking about what she had seen on October 14. She remembered having read about a large number of sightings of UFOs in Belgium. On October 20 she decided to telephone the air traffic center at Zurich-Kloten. They had seen nothing unusual on their radars during the evening of October 14, and no one else had reported a similar phenomenon. The man who answered the telephone said, "It must be an optical illusion due to some sort of reflection." He said this haughtily, adding that he received many telephone calls of this kind, but that they were almost always optical illusions. This indicates that there were other UFO reports, although the explanation he offered was purely gratuitous. I note that in the United States a photograph was taken on May 26, 1988, near Southbury of a beautiful crown of alternating red, yellow and green lights against a black background. This is documented by a magnificent slide that I have received from Philip Imbrogno, co-author of the book Night Siege. This shows that one must not treat each case in isolation as if it were unique, but search for correlations as has to be done for any physical phenomenon. For this reason we must not focus our attention solely on the events of March 30-31, 1990, whatever their possible importance may eventually be. As for the "flying angels effect," which has led to some notable problems in atmospheric physics and useful knowledge for radar operators, this discovery was simply a by-product of rational study of the UFO problem. As such it underlines that it is worthwhile to look carefully at mysterious phenomena. I expect that the thoroughness and seriousness of our study of radar "noise" will help our credibility as we examine other aspects of the UFO phenomenon. PARANET FILE NAME: MEESEN.UFO -- Michael Corbin - via FidoNet node 1:104/422 UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name INTERNET: Michael.Corbin@p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG Path: ns-mx!uunet!snorkelwacker.mit.edu!apple!amdcad!amdahl!JUTS!duts!dfs30 From: dfs30@duts.ccc.amdahl.com (Denise Solis) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Crop Circles / Books? Message-ID: <55qw02bd0a2J01@JUTS.ccc.amdahl.com> Date: 9 Aug 91 23:42:27 GMT References: <1991Aug07.153837.24998@aixssc.ibm.co.uk> Sender: netnews@ccc.amdahl.com Reply-To: dfs30@DUTS.ccc.amdahl.com (Denise Solis) Organization: Amdahl Corporation, Sunnyvale CA Lines: 18 Can any one recomend a current book on crop circles? Preferably one with good airal photos? Thanks! P.S John, are you for real? (this is a serious question) Denise -- ========================================================================= All poetry posted is Copyright protected, anything else is just talk. Denise Solis - Amdahl Corp. dfs30@DUTS.ccc.amdahl.com ========================================================================= Path: ns-mx!uunet!spool.mu.edu!agate!darkstar!cats.ucsc.edu!beeboy From: beeboy@cats.ucsc.edu (Rev. D.P. Rubin) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy Subject: Re: FILE: OH Krill part 4 (Conclusion) Message-ID: <19296@darkstar.ucsc.edu> Date: 10 Aug 91 09:53:43 GMT References: <1991Aug8.055411.24453@bilver.uucp> <1991Aug9.201944.5348@cadence.com> Sender: usenet@darkstar.ucsc.edu Followup-To: alt.alien.visitors Organization: Maud's Taco and Coyote ChurchO Lines: 15 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:1657 alt.conspiracy:6557 Very intereesting reading there...does this have any connection with the artifacts/ruins found on Mars (of which the 'face' is the most famous) or with theories of life on Titan? Whether it's true or not, it's fascinating! -- _______________Don't push me, 'cause I'm close to the edge_____________________ ___________________________________________________-Grandmaster Flash_________ Reverend Beeboy, minister of Pornography, Graffiti consultant, and the Thug. Disclaimer: Bass for ya face, Santa Cruz! "Welcome my friends to Palomar. Where men are men, and women need a sense of humor." -Carmen, _Love and Rockets_ ________________________________________________________________________________ Path: ns-mx!uunet!mcsun!ukc!warwick!csuxr From: csuxr@warwick.ac.uk (Andrew Shires) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Question On Significant Dates Summary: Whitty's our man! Keywords: GO Whitley GO! Message-ID: <1KR}6J+@warwick.ac.uk> Date: 10 Aug 91 21:03:47 GMT References: <73434.28A16DED@paranet.FIDONET.ORG> Sender: news@warwick.ac.uk (Network news) Organization: Computing Services, Warwick University, UK Lines: 41 Nntp-Posting-Host: lily In article <73434.28A16DED@paranet.FIDONET.ORG> Michael.Corbin@p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Michael Corbin) writes: > > > From: dlcogswe@vela.acs.oakland.edu (Dan Cogswell) > > > If this is your only objection to Strieber, I suggest you re-think > > things (and read a bit more). He explains the episode you speak of in > > _Transformation_ which is a sequel to _Communion_. What is it you > > object to about the story he told? > > > > Personally, I have two things to say about Strieber: (1) I don't > > believe he's lying and (2) he's a *lot* smarter than your average > > UFO-nut (or average person, for that matter). I'd like to see how *you* > > handle the situation he's (apparently) been put into. > >I would be really interested in what Strieber's story has to say that >convinced you that he was telling the truth? I suspect that he is a lot >smarter than the average person, but that doesn't add to his credibility. I >have heard a lot of stories on the "inside" of things that convince me that >Strieber was making it all up. But why? > > > BTW, it's comments like yours that have led Strieber to label ufologists > > "the cruellest, nastiest and craziest people I have ever encountered." > >He labels ufologists that way because we are smart to his game. After a >lengthy time of trying to get us to accept his crap, he jumps ship. Tell me, >just how concerned is he to leave his devotees high and dry without any >resources to help them with their problems? > >Mike > >-- >Michael Corbin - via FidoNet node 1:104/422 I posted a month or so ago with pretty much the same opinion of Streiber as Dan has -- mine based on reading the books, perhaps Dan knows more -- and you said then, most emphatically, that Streiber is not considered `credible' by UFOlogists. You've re-iterated that you think he's making it up, but you still don't say why. Can you tell the net what you think he was up to? And what he has done in recent times that consolidate your opinion? Andrew Path: ns-mx!uunet!munnari.oz.au!ariel!ucsvc.ucs.unimelb.edu.au!luga!latcs1!ipc1.lat.oz.au!stephens From: stephens@ipc1.lat.oz.au (Philip J Stephens) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal Subject: Re: Answer to how life got started on Earth. Message-ID: <1991Aug10.084637.6647@latcs1.lat.oz.au> Date: 10 Aug 91 08:46:37 GMT References: <1991Aug3.170949.19919@hobbes.kzoo.edu> <1991Aug6.120038.17853@ujocs.joensuu.fi> <1991Aug7.152430.17799@hobbes.kzoo.edu> Sender: news@latcs1.lat.oz.au Organization: Comp Sci, La Trobe Uni, Australia Lines: 30 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:1659 sci.skeptic:13666 alt.paranormal:2441 Nntp-Posting-Host: ipc1.lat.oz.au Josh Vander Berg writes: >Strange, I am aware of many skeletons having been found which were definitely >non-human and non-ape, but primates...looking at one gap in the fossil record >does not disprove the large body of fossil evidence which shows human's >evolution from lower primates. But Josh, whilst there are gaps in the fossil record you cannot say uneqivocally that a species represented by an earlier fossil "evoluted" into a species represented by a later fossil. Looking at the similarities between skeletal structure is not enough; you must also compare the soft biology of the species, or better still obtain an accurate picture of their DNA. Then once you are reasonably convinced that the two species are part of an evolutionary path, you must fill in the transitionary forms by extrapolation and show that they are all viable. It goes without saying that the task of unequivocally proving evolution, like any other theory, is not possible. But you can disprove evolution by presenting evidence that contradicts the theory. Many potential examples of such evidence have been presented over the decades, and to my knowledge there still remains some of these cases which cannot be accounted for by evolutionists (I am willing to present these if the need arises). The theory of evolution is not airtight, and the problem areas are by no means trivial. To suggest otherwise is paramount to ignorance. <\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/><\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\> < Philip J. Stephens >< "Many views yield the truth." > < Hons. student, Computer Science >< "Therefore, be not alone." > < La Trobe University, Melbourne >< - Prime Song of the viggies, from > < AUSTRALIA >< THE ENGIMA SCORE by Sheri S Tepper > Path: ns-mx!uunet!prpa.philips.com!ram!steve From: steve@ram.prpa.philips.com (Steven J. Kudlak) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: working on a FAQL Message-ID: Date: 10 Aug 91 23:14:15 GMT References: <8988@awdprime.UUCP> <1991Jul03.163719.27447@ariel.unm.edu> <1991Jul10.053754.20691@bilver.uucp> Organization: Philips Research Palo Alto Lines: 55 jms@vanth.UUCP (Jim Shaffer) writes: >In article <1991Jul10.053754.20691@bilver.uucp> dona@bilver.uucp (Don Allen) writes: >>In article jms@vanth.UUCP (Jim Shaffer) writes: >>> >>>Not to the best of my knowledge, but we should start one! A sort of FAQL >>>for this newsgroup. >>> >>That's an idea that I'm toying with myself. Frequently, people will ask: >> >>What are the greys? Where do they come from? What IS a "grey"? etc,ect.. >> >>Hmmmmmm...I'll get to work on some parts..maybe you could work on something >>too? >I'd like to do something of the sort, but I really don't know how much to >do. For example, I don't want to end up writing a comprehensive history of >alien/human interaction in the 20th century. >If I think of anything, I'll post it. Let's see, we've already defined >"grey" and "Nord." We probably need a list of crash/retrieval cases >(again, *briefly*), "What is MJ-12/MAJI/MAJIC/Majority/Majestic?", "Who are >the Pleiadians?" (this is *not* my favorite area, and probably wouldn't get >favorable treatment from me), who are Lear, Cooper, English, Grace, >Bennewitz, Lazar, Walters, Meier, etc. >-- > * From the disk of: | jms@vanth.uucp | "Let's become > Jim Shaffer, Jr. | amix.commodore.com!vanth!jms | alive again." > 37 Brook Street | uunet!cbmvax!amix!vanth!jms | > Montgomery, PA 17752 | 72750.2335@compuserve.com | --Yes Well I for one would like to see a FAQ/FAQL list for this group as well as others. A FAQ and a bibliography would be very nice. Your responses as to favored/no favored areas points out the need for commentary on these sorts of things. Since News seems to be up and working here. Gee, I finally did something right. :) I may be tempted to post my idea of what good Frequently Asked Questions are, and what I think are important books etc. Have Fun, Sends Steve Reply to: steve@olympus.prpa.philips.com Path: ns-mx!uunet!prpa.philips.com!ram!steve From: steve@ram.prpa.philips.com (Steven J. Kudlak) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Aliens at Work Message-ID: Date: 10 Aug 91 23:23:55 GMT References: <1991Jul17.141106.54168@eagle.wesleyan.edu> <91200.145255UMASP@MAINE.MAINE.EDU> Organization: Philips Research Palo Alto Lines: 58 UMASP@MAINE.MAINE.EDU writes: >In article <1991Jul17.141106.54168@eagle.wesleyan.edu>, >meisner@eagle.wesleyan.edu says: >> >>QUESTION FOR THOSE WHO CONTRIBUTE TO THIS NEWSGROUP: >>How can one tell if one's coworkers are alien vistors? >> >>I have had some ongoing suspicions about a few of my coworkers. The being who >>occupies the office next to mine always wheres electronic listening devices >>over his ears--they are like headphones but different. One can find him at all >>times of the day--and night, I understand--typing wildly into a computer >>keyboard. He commonly dresses in ways that are foreign to the workplace. >> >>There are others, many others, who act and dress in an odd fashion.They work >>non-stop, also typing into keyboards. They look like the beings that some have >>described as "greys." They speak >>of the 7th year (biblical for totality)in a fearful fashion, referring to it >>as >>the "up or out year." This >>sounds as if they may be considering some kind of extra-terrestrial travel. >> >>If anyone can solve this mystery and give some advice regarding whether we are >>actually dealing with extraterrestrials, it would be greatly appreciated. >> >>---Aloha! >They sound more like hackers to me. As for the headset, listen in >sometime, its probably AC/DC or Led Zeppelin. As for typing wildly, >that's a hackers method. As for the odd clothing, have you ever met >a hacker or programmer who DIDN'T dress that way. It's a mark of >distinction. As for the grey color. Sounds like too many twinkies >and too little sleep to me. >Just my 2 cents worth. >George Newell >umasp@maine.maine.edu or alien@outer.space.central Well a friend of mine has provided me lots of fun by posting these` sorts of things to me. Some of these weird things I can relate to and when I first say it, I gasped and thought they were talking about me! From the tone of this message it seems you tongue is very firmly planted in your cheek. I think at some level we are all aliens, at least in the metaphysical sense. We are all "others" (the almost literal meaning of "alien"), and when I go back and visit relatives back east, they definitely think that I am from another planet! :) Have Fun, Sends Steve Reply to: steve@olympus.prpa.philips.com Path: ns-mx!uunet!prpa.philips.com!ram!steve From: steve@ram.prpa.philips.com (Steven J. Kudlak) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Hanger 19 and Roswell incident Message-ID: Date: 10 Aug 91 23:41:32 GMT References: <1991Jul25.142225.32301@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu> Organization: Philips Research Palo Alto Lines: 26 cole@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu writes: >What happened to the people I was talking to about hanger 19 and the Roswell >incident. Everything just went quiet. No posts, no responses, what in the >hell is going on here. Someone Emailed me the first part of the radio >interview in Las Vegas, but where is the rest of this account? Is any one >getting this message? Am I the only one experiencing this or am I getting >scenile. I got this message. I don't think you are going senile. We people "out here" in California "go scenile" from seeing too much scenery. :) I for one would like to see as much neat weird stuff about Roswell as possible. Speaking of weird things. Has anyone gone to Dulce or Lindreth(sp?) New Mexico to look for the putative secret UFO bases under those Mesas? Did anyone find anything interesting? Have Fun, Sends Steve E-mail Address: steve@olympus.prpa.philips.com Path: ns-mx!uunet!prpa.philips.com!ram!steve From: steve@ram.prpa.philips.com (Steven J. Kudlak) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: whitley Strieber/reliability Message-ID: Date: 10 Aug 91 23:48:33 GMT References: Organization: Philips Research Palo Alto Lines: 40 beddow@ux.acs.umn.edu (Jeff Beddow) writes: >It must be remembered that Strieber is a very good science fiction writer. He wrote the book and I believe the screenplay for "Wolfen." While this makes him an eloquent teller of his tale, it also opens up alternate interpretations of his motives...It seems unlikely, but possible, that this is a post-modern version of the Mercury Radio Theater War of the the Worlds? >If I get chased by some ugly little shits with galactic army knives for posting this I will let you know. >-Jeff Well when I read Strieber's fiction books I almost fainted. The things he posits in his fiction books, such as >Wolfen< and the >Night Chruch< resonate very clearly with his visitor experiences. It is almost as if some version of his dreams sprung to life. This is a very clear. He also has certain beliefs that very closely parallel much of the "thematic theology" of Science-Fiction and Ecologically-Oriented Science Fiction. Wolfen for example is almost a hope of Strieber's. He wishes that there were some other entity to sort of put us in our metaphorical place. The Wolfen sort of does this, and it is an almost religious hope. He for example endows the Wolfen with a quasi-invincibility. He speaks of how the Wolfen would never fear Man because, and I paraphrase >>" A Wolf would never fear a rabbit or a deer." My question has always been: "Well what about deer armed with automatic rilfes?" I mean it is clear that if the metaphorical rabbits were armed and dangerous the metaphorical wolves would learn to fear them or be wiped out. For this reason I think there are lots of emotional, quasi-religious things going involving Strieber. This doesn't necessarily mean he is a decieving scum, but it means that something interesting is going on. Have Fun, Sends Steve P.S. Email Reply Address is: steve@olympus.prpa.philips.com Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!bronze!venus.iucf.indiana.edu!graham From: graham@venus.iucf.indiana.edu (JIM GRAHAM) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: whitley Strieber/reliability Message-ID: <1991Aug11.003214.25098@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu> Date: 11 Aug 91 00:19:23 GMT References: Sender: news@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu (USENET News System) Reply-To: graham@venus.iucf.indiana.edu Distribution: na Organization: Somewhere in Bloomington, Indiana Lines: 24 News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.3-4 Nntp-Posting-Host: venus.iucf.indiana.edu In article , steve@ram.prpa.philips.com (Steven J. Kudlak) writes... >Well when I read Strieber's fiction books I almost fainted. The things >he posits in his fiction books, such as >Wolfen< and the >Night Chruch< >resonate very clearly with his visitor experiences. It is almost as if >some version of his dreams sprung to life. This is a very clear. He also Maybe it's the other way around. Perhaps Wolfen and Night Church were the result of Streiber's so-called "experiences"? Remember, he didn't (apparently) know about his "abductions" until after those were written. Correct me if I'm wrong on this. Jim -> ->Disclaimer: I do not speak for my company. <- <- Neither do they speak for me. ______________________________________________________________________ | Internet: graham@venus.iucf.indiana.edu | | UUCP: dolmen!graham@iuvax.cs.indiana.edu | | BBS: The PORTAL DOLMEN BBS/ParaNet ALPHA-GAMMA (sm) (9:1012/13) | | (812) 334-0418, 24hrs. | |______________________________________________________________________| Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!ut-emx!bill From: bill@ut-emx.uucp (Bill Jefferys) Newsgroups: talk.origins,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal Subject: Re: Answer to how life got started on Earth. Message-ID: <53885@ut-emx.uucp> Date: 11 Aug 91 02:43:28 GMT References: <1991Aug6.120038.17853@ujocs.joensuu.fi> <1991Aug7.152430.17799@hobbes.kzoo.edu> <1991Aug10.084637.6647@latcs1.lat.oz.au> Followup-To: talk.origins Organization: The University of Texas at Austin; Austin, Texas Lines: 19 Xref: ns-mx talk.origins:10448 alt.alien.visitors:1665 sci.skeptic:13670 alt.paranormal:2443 In article <1991Aug10.084637.6647@latcs1.lat.oz.au> stephens@ipc1.lat.oz.au (Philip J Stephens) writes: # It goes without saying that the task of unequivocally proving evolution, #like any other theory, is not possible. But you can disprove evolution by #presenting evidence that contradicts the theory. Many potential examples of #such evidence have been presented over the decades, and to my knowledge #there still remains some of these cases which cannot be accounted for by #evolutionists (I am willing to present these if the need arises). ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Please do. # The theory of evolution is not airtight, and the problem areas are by no #means trivial. To suggest otherwise is paramount to ignorance. Bill -- If you meet the Buddha on the net, put him in your kill file --Robert Firth Path: ns-mx!uunet!sequent!muncher.sequent.com!ether!kellym From: kellym@ether.UUCP (Kelly M McArthur) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal Subject: Re: Answer to how life got started on Earth. Message-ID: <1779@ether.UUCP> Date: 10 Aug 91 06:50:06 GMT References: <1991Jul12.205856.26896@bony1.bony.com> <1991Aug3.170949.19919@hobbes.kzoo.edu> <1991Aug6.120038.17853@ujocs.joensuu.fi> <1991Aug7.152430.17799@hobbes.kzoo.edu> Reply-To: kellym@ether.UUCP (Kelly M McArthur) Organization: HALF, Beaverton, OR Lines: 27 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:1666 sci.skeptic:13671 alt.paranormal:2444 Though I'm not even slightly well read in areas of biology or physical anthropology, I have given some thought as to why many people have such great difficulty with the notion of human evolution, (rationalization of self-actualizing religious belifes aside). I think that it may have to do with the fact that the evolution of organisms into highly distinct and varied forms is awfully hard to comprehend, for some of us. So too is the effect of the passage of Millions of years on a species. Nothing in our experience is very helpful in getting some kind of intuitive feel for these kinds of things. With one possible exception. As I understand it, about 10,000 years ago, there were far fewer sorts of dogs running around. Mostly wolves and dingo sorts of things. There did not exist roving bands of vicisous Lhasa Apsos or Miniature Schnauzers taking down running antelope or attacking tribes of hunter-gatherers. Many breeds of dogs were "created" by man, through breeding for selected, although often very peculiar traits (see Dauschund). These dogs are not only highly evolved (unevolved?) from their anscestors, but this has taken place in startlingly few generations. If 10^3 years will turn a wolf into a poodle, imagine what can happen in 10^6 years? 10^8? -- ******************************************************************** * Kelly McArthur ..tektronix!sequent!ether!kellym * * HALF Associates (Heavily Armed Lunatic Fringe) * ******************************************************************** Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!qt.cs.utexas.edu!cs.utexas.edu!helios!rigel.tamu.edu!rab7166 From: rab7166@rigel.tamu.edu (BAKER, RICHARD ALAN) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal Subject: Re: Answer to how life got started on Earth. Message-ID: <20193@helios.TAMU.EDU> Date: 11 Aug 91 04:19:12 GMT References: <1991Aug3.170949.19919@hobbes.kzoo.edu> <1991Aug6.120038.17853@ujocs.joensuu.fi> <1991Aug7.152430.17799@hobbes.kzoo.edu> <1991Aug10.084637.6647@latcs1.lat.oz.au> Sender: usenet@helios.TAMU.EDU Reply-To: rab7166@rigel.tamu.edu Followup-To: alt.alien.visitors Organization: Academic Computing Services, Texas A&M University Lines: 28 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:1667 sci.skeptic:13674 alt.paranormal:2445 News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.3-4 In article <1991Aug10.084637.6647@latcs1.lat.oz.au>, stephens@ipc1.lat.oz.au (Philip J Stephens) writes... >Josh Vander Berg writes: > > > But Josh, whilst there are gaps in the fossil record you cannot say >uneqivocally that a species represented by an earlier fossil "evoluted" into >a species represented by a later fossil. Looking at the similarities >between skeletal structure is not enough; you must also compare the soft >biology of the species, or better still obtain an accurate picture of their >DNA. Then once you are reasonably convinced that the two species are part >of an evolutionary path, you must fill in the transitionary forms by >extrapolation and show that they are all viable. The above logic taken to the extreme: Let's see you look an awful lot like your father, but there are some differences. You'll have to show me a transitionary form that looks like both of you before *I* believe you are a descendent of him!!! Richard Baker This is just taken the above satire a step further; though, it's still not nearly as bad as the Christian philosophy. Disclaimer: Not all people who belief in Christ and claim to be Christian believe in the Christian philosphy that is implied above. (_Christian philosophy_ belief that Bible is true and always will be true) The above definition is mine. It describes many people who claim to be Xians. Path: ns-mx!uunet!cadence!jdm From: jdm@cadence.com (Joe Mastroianni) Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,misc.headlines,alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Alien spacecraft to be displayed? [Forwarded from sci.astro] Message-ID: <1991Aug11.044629.18378@cadence.com> Date: 11 Aug 91 04:46:29 GMT References: <1991Aug8.155535.20373@cadence.com> <1991Aug9.123958@aifh.ed.ac.uk> Organization: Cadence Design Systems, Inc. Lines: 25 Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:13676 misc.headlines:17358 alt.alien.visitors:1668 In article <1991Aug9.123958@aifh.ed.ac.uk> jlb@aifh.ed.ac.uk (John Beaven) writes: >In article <1991Aug8.155535.20373@cadence.com>, jdm@cadence.com (Joe >Mastroianni) writes: ># ># Actually, my point is: Why would an advanced civilization regard our form ># of government as a vehicle to communicate or control the masses? When ># we take eggs from chickens, we don't bother to ask the "head rooster". We ># go right to the chickens. Its easier. > >That's funny. I had assumed throughout this thread that your point was that >these alien civilization would look for some intelligent life to communicate >with, rather than talking to the US Govt. > >John Touche! :-) Joe -- Joe Mastroianni AKA: AA6YD AA6YD @ N6LDL.#NOCAL.CA.USA.NA Cadence Design Systems Santa Clara Ca. "Up the airy mountain;down the rushy glen; we jdm@cadence.com daren't go a hunting; for fear of little men " Path: ns-mx!uunet!cadence!jdm From: jdm@cadence.com (Joe Mastroianni) Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,misc.headlines,alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Alien spacecraft to be displayed? Message-ID: <1991Aug11.045447.18502@cadence.com> Date: 11 Aug 91 04:54:47 GMT References: <15368@goofy.Apple.COM> Organization: Cadence Design Systems, Inc. Lines: 36 Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:13677 misc.headlines:17359 alt.alien.visitors:1669 In article <15368@goofy.Apple.COM> showen@applelink.Apple.com (Don Showen) writes: >References:<2172@mpirbn.mpifr-bonn.mpg.de> <1991Aug6.160911.13402@cadence.com> > >Joe Mastroianni comments > >>I still find it difficult to believe that beings capable of intersteller >>multidimensional or whatever else , travel, would choose to deal directly >>with the U.S.government. This does not compute. > >It is a matter of the assumption that people seem to make that >intelligence and spiritual would be connected. They are not, as >sci.skeptic well proves. The ETs who have been in touch with the Govt. >since the 40's are very intelligent and technological, but have no >feelings or love. Consequently them and the govt. (military) get >along great together. In fact that is why the Govt. attracted that >type instead of a more benevolent, loving, higher, evolved type. > >Don Showen I disagree with your generalization that the Government and our military are composed of people who are "Intelligent, and technological, but have no feelings of love." Having known many people in government and the military, I can assure you that there are people in both of those organizations who have very strong feelings of love. I dont think you want to say that people in those professions lack the ability to love or be benevolent. I think you may be making an unfair and inaccurate generalization. Joe -- Joe Mastroianni AKA: AA6YD AA6YD @ N6LDL.#NOCAL.CA.USA.NA Cadence Design Systems Santa Clara Ca. "Up the airy mountain;down the rushy glen; we jdm@cadence.com daren't go a hunting; for fear of little men " Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!usc!apple!fernwood!cronos!zinfandel!eherrera From: eherrera@zinfandel.metaphor.com (Eric Herrera) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Hello? Hello-o! Message-ID: <1052@cronos.metaphor.com> Date: 11 Aug 91 05:26:32 GMT Sender: news@cronos.metaphor.com Organization: Metaphor Computer Systems, Mountain View, CA Lines: 26 Originator: eherrera@zinfandel I humbly ask that some one post a *short* list of the "must reads" on this subject. I've posted this request a couple of times and haven't received a response; e-mail or post. Don't worry guys, I'm not CIA, NSA, MJ-12, MIB or any of those other scary things I read about in the _Krill_ document. Just an interested netter looking for some interesting reading. If the regular participants in this group are trying to find a subtle way to say "this is a closed club" then please just say so. Tell ya what, how about some one just responds with a "go browse a bookstore" that way I'll know that at least my posts are working. Please, forgive my rudeness; I'm just a bit frustrated. Thank you! Oh yeah, what's a "Xian"? -- ...................................................................... ___ : Eric P. Herrera : My opinions only... (__ ' . : Metaphor Computer Systems : Don't blame Metaphor / ,_ , _ : Mountain View, CA :....................... (___)/ (_/(_(_, : eherrera@zinfandel.metaphor.com ...................................................................... Path: ns-mx!uunet!wupost!m.cs.uiuc.edu!vela!dlcogswe From: dlcogswe@vela.acs.oakland.edu (Dan Cogswell) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Strieber Keywords: GO Whitley GO! Message-ID: <8877@vela.acs.oakland.edu> Date: 11 Aug 91 05:49:53 GMT References: <73434.28A16DED@paranet.FIDONET.ORG> <1KR}6J+@warwick.ac.uk> Organization: Oakland University, Rochester MI. Lines: 45 csuxr@warwick.ac.uk (Andrew Shires) writes: =>I would be really interested in what Strieber's story has to say that =>convinced you that he was telling the truth? I suspect that he is a lot =>smarter than the average person, but that doesn't add to his credibility. I =>have heard a lot of stories on the "inside" of things that convince me that =>Strieber was making it all up. But why? =>He labels ufologists that way because we are smart to his game. After a =>lengthy time of trying to get us to accept his crap, he jumps ship. Tell me, =>just how concerned is he to leave his devotees high and dry without any =>resources to help them with their problems? =>Michael Corbin - via FidoNet node 1:104/422 >I posted a month or so ago with pretty much the same opinion of Streiber as >Dan has -- mine based on reading the books, perhaps Dan knows more -- and you >said then, most emphatically, that Streiber is not considered `credible' by >UFOlogists. You've re-iterated that you think he's making it up, but you >still don't say why. Can you tell the net what you think he was up to? >And what he has done in recent times that consolidate your opinion? I second this! Mike, if you don't want to back your opinion with *some* facts, I don't find you very reasonable. I'll *bet* your main objection to Strieber is that he takes the position that perhaps the Greys really AREN'T evil. At least that classification would be too simplistic according to him. Most material I see you post, Mike, has to do with aliens as beings who are out to eat us humans. I find that argument very thin and simplistic. Andrew, my opinion of Strieber is mainly from reading his three books (and what I've heard from others to a lesser extent). I've heard it said that he's working for the government and affiliated with deceptive government agents (Moore? Can't remember). If this person is the "Wilfred Stone" character in _Majestic_ I think I can forgive him. :-) I have a large amount of respect for Strieber mainly because he's generally consistent, even though he admits he doesn't understand what's going on. His theories are well thought-out and he's taken a fresher approach to this thing than a lot of people. In my opinion, more people involved in UFO research should be as thoughtful. >Andrew -- Dan Cogswell dlcogswe@vela.acs.oakland.edu Mostly H20 and whatever pizza and Diet Pepsi digest into Path: ns-mx!uunet!mcsun!ukc!newcastle.ac.uk!lorien!william From: william@lorien.newcastle.ac.uk (William Coyne) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal Subject: Re: Answer to how life got started on Earth. Message-ID: <1991Aug11.075605.845@newcastle.ac.uk> Date: 11 Aug 91 07:56:05 GMT References: <1991Aug3.170949.19919@hobbes.kzoo.edu> <1991Aug6.120038.17853@ujocs.joensuu.fi> <1991Aug7.152430.17799@hobbes.kzoo.edu> <1991Aug10.084637.6647@latcs1.lat.oz.au> Sender: news@newcastle.ac.uk Organization: Chemical & Process Engineering Dept, University of Newcastle, UK. Lines: 10 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:1672 sci.skeptic:13679 alt.paranormal:2448 stephens@ipc1.lat.oz.au (Philip J Stephens) writes: > The theory of evolution is not airtight, and the problem areas are by no >means trivial. To suggest otherwise is paramount to ignorance. It may not be airtight but its far better than the alternative scientific theories. Apart from Lamarkianism (which is still a form of evolution are they any other scientific theories which compete with neodarwinian evolution. And what are the problem areas you mention? Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!moe.ksu.ksu.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!casbah.acns.nwu.edu!ils.nwu.edu!shafto From: shafto@ils.nwu.edu (Eric Shafto) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal Subject: Re: Answer to how life got started on Earth. Message-ID: <2772@anaxagoras.ils.nwu.edu> Date: 11 Aug 91 14:46:18 GMT References: <1779@ether.UUCP> Sender: news@ils.nwu.edu Organization: The Institute for the Learning Sciences Lines: 36 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:1673 sci.skeptic:13681 alt.paranormal:2450 kellym@ether.UUCP (Kelly M McArthur) writes: > > As I understand it, about 10,000 years ago, there were far fewer sorts > of dogs running around. Mostly wolves and dingo sorts of things. There > did not exist roving bands of vicisous Lhasa Apsos or Miniature Schnauzers > taking down running antelope or attacking tribes of hunter-gatherers. > Many breeds of dogs were "created" by man, through breeding for selected, > although often very peculiar traits (see Dauschund). These dogs are not only > highly evolved (unevolved?) from their anscestors, but this has taken place > in startlingly few generations. If 10^3 years will turn a wolf into a > poodle, imagine what can happen in 10^6 years? 10^8? [put on my stupid-guy voice] Well, let's see, 10^6 is what, like twice as long as 10^3? No, three times, yeah, that's it. [end stupid-guy voice] My point is that people still won't get it. Even computer scientists who know what ^ means probably aren't real good at conceiving of 10^8 years. I think you are right, though, that this is where many people have trouble believing in evolution. One final point: We turned a wolf into a toy poodle, and Bob Bales still thinks there is a God. God would have struck us dead in a minute for having done something like that. And done the same for the poodle as an act of mercy. :-) -- *Eric Shafto * How many loved your moments of glad grace, * *Institute for the * And loved your beauty with love false or true, * * Learning Sciences * One man loved the pilgrim soul in you, * *Northwestern University * And loved the sorrows of your changing face; * Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!moe.ksu.ksu.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!think.com!snorkelwacker.mit.edu!stanford.edu!bu.edu!bu-bio!colby From: colby@bu-bio.bu.edu (Chris Colby) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal Subject: defending evolution -- again Summary: flames Message-ID: <87678@bu.edu> Date: 11 Aug 91 17:49:27 GMT References: <1991Aug3.170949.19919@hobbes.kzoo.edu> <1991Aug6.120038.17853@ujocs.joensuu.fi> <1991Aug7.152430.17799@hobbes.kzoo.edu> <1991Aug10.084637.6647@latcs1.lat.oz.au> Sender: news@bu.edu Reply-To: colby@bu-bio.UUCP (Chris Colby) Followup-To: talk.origins Organization: Biology Dept., Bost Lines: 75 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:1674 sci.skeptic:13682 alt.paranormal:2452 **WARNING** please don your protective asbestos suit before reading the flames contained herein. Should you feel nauseous or dizzy, press 'n' and hopefully the feeling will go away. In article <1991Aug10.084637.6647@latcs1.lat.oz.au> stephens@ipc1.lat.oz.au (Philip J Stephens) writes: > It goes without saying that the task of unequivocally proving evolution, >like any other theory, is not possible. Big deal. _Nothing_ in science is "unequivocally" proved. Evolution is a fact. The theory of evolution is as solidly grounded as any theory in science. If you don't believe me, go to the library and browse through the past couple years of Nature, Science or PNAS -- the big three general audience science journals. If evolution were not a great theory, why would these prestigious, peer-reviewed journals devote so much space to it? >But you can disprove evolution by >presenting evidence that contradicts the theory. Many potential examples of >such evidence have been presented over the decades, and to my knowledge >there still remains some of these cases which cannot be accounted for by >evolutionists (I am willing to present these if the need arises). The need has arizen. I find it strange that so many people will post attacks on evolution to a public forum and never give one shred of evidence to back up their droolings. If they had evidence of problems with the theory, they would have posted it. > The theory of evolution is not airtight, and the problem areas are by no >means trivial. To suggest otherwise is paramount to ignorance. O.K. Mr. Honors Student, lets see you prove it, or even back up your statements. I think you are absolutely full of shit and I will easily be able to destroy any arguments you put forward (because all the arguments against evolution are special pleadings by brain dead fundies). You would know this, of course, if your discipline was a real science. Any field that tacks "science" on the end of it is "Science Lite -- the taste of real science with 1/3 the rigor". So come on Phil, we are all dying to hear your stunning refutation of evolution -- or are you ready to admit you are just lying about having evidence against evolution? Also, didn't you make claims like this about six months ago then disappear when pressed for details? I've set the follow up to talk.origins -- where this discussion belongs. Not that I don't think Philip will just disappear (like a weasel), but you never know. Apologies to computer scientists, my comments were made solely to annoy Philip enough so that he will respond and expose his anti- evolution rantings for what they are -- unscientific drivel. Apologies also to anyone offended by the tone of my article, however, I feel that attacks on evolution are attacks on science in general. They are motivated not by a desire to seek the truth, but to further religious ends. I will pay close attention to any response forethcoming from Philip and endeavor to show carefully why his arguments (if he even has any) are spurious. Evolution is a great theory and does not deserve this kind of abuse. (Of course, serious examinations of flaws in the theory would be most welcome -- see my recent articles in talk.origins as to how the the dogma of random mutations is being revised as the result of some careful experimental work.) ><\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/><\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\> >< Philip J. Stephens >< "Many views yield the truth." > >< Hons. student, Computer Science >< "Therefore, be not alone." > >< La Trobe University, Melbourne >< - Prime Song of the viggies, from > >< AUSTRALIA >< THE ENGIMA SCORE by Sheri S Tepper > > Chris Colby --- email: colby@bu-bio.bu.edu --- "'My boy,' he said, 'you are descended from a long line of determined, resourceful, microscopic tadpoles--champions every one.'" --Kurt Vonnegut from "Galapagos" Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!samsung!nstar!sara From: sara@nstar.rn.com (Sara Gordon) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Crop Circles in the UK Message-ID: Date: 11 Aug 91 18:59:25 GMT References: <1991Aug08.183352.32236@aixssc.ibm.co.uk> Sender: news@news.rn.com (Usenet News) Organization: NSTAR, Indiana's BBS 219-289-0287/317-251-7391 Lines: 12 Nntp-Posting-Host: zztop.rn.com Its not suprising that a dolphin would show up, really. After all, dolphins know things that people dont for the most part give them credit. Ive been in the water with dolphins :) -- Sara Gordon Northern Star 8 line BBS 219-289-0287/317-251-7391 internet: sara@nstar.rn.com uucp: ..!uunet!nstar.rn.com!sara -= newsfeeds available, contact robert@towers.rn.com =- Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!asuvax!anasaz!billy From: billy@anasaz.UUCP (Bill Moore) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Hanger 19 and Roswell incident Message-ID: <4697@anasaz.UUCP> Date: 11 Aug 91 18:13:04 GMT References: <1991Jul25.142225.32301@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu> Reply-To: billy@anasaz.UUCP (Bill Moore) Organization: Anasazi, Inc. Lines: 30 In article steve@ram.prpa.philips.com (Steven J. Kudlak) writes: .... stuff deleted .... ]>Speaking of weird things. Has anyone gone to Dulce or Lindreth(sp?) ]>New Mexico to look for the putative secret UFO bases under those ]>Mesas? Did anyone find anything interesting? Sounds like a fun trip. I'd be interested in going. Anyone else want to come along? > >E-mail Address: steve@olympus.prpa.philips.com > > Path: ns-mx!uunet!mcsun!ukc!warwick!csuxr From: csuxr@warwick.ac.uk (Andrew Shires) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Strieber Keywords: GO Whitley GO! Message-ID: Date: 11 Aug 91 21:39:44 GMT References: <73434.28A16DED@paranet.FIDONET.ORG> <1KR}6J+@warwick.ac.uk> <8877@vela.acs.oakland.edu> Sender: news@warwick.ac.uk (Network news) Organization: Computing Services, Warwick University, UK Lines: 27 Nntp-Posting-Host: lily In article <8877@vela.acs.oakland.edu> dlcogswe@vela.acs.oakland.edu (Dan Cogswell) writes: >I have a large amount of respect for Strieber mainly because he's >generally consistent, even though he admits he doesn't understand what's >going on. His theories are well thought-out and he's taken a fresher >approach to this thing than a lot of people. In my opinion, more people >involved in UFO research should be as thoughtful. I must agree with this -- having only read his two non-fiction (by his own accounts, at least) books it seems to me that he does not make any claims to know what it is all about. I don't claim to speak from a position of authority about Streiber, but the books have impressed me like no others, and they are the work of an extraordinarily clever man if they are entirely made up. At least in my experience of UFO literature (not inconsiderable, but not especially great), Streiber started something new. If anything, I would say that Streiber seems to have established a new thoughtfulness in UFO literature, and even if he is `making it all up' that contribution has to be a good thing. Please tell us why we are being led on, Mike! Andrew >Dan Cogswell dlcogswe@vela.acs.oakland.edu >Mostly H20 and whatever pizza and Diet Pepsi digest into Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!samsung!umich!gumby!kzoo!k080093 From: k080093@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Josh Vander Berg) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal Subject: Re: Answer to how life got started on Earth. Message-ID: <1991Aug11.230210.25497@hobbes.kzoo.edu> Date: 11 Aug 91 23:02:10 GMT References: <1991Aug6.120038.17853@ujocs.joensuu.fi> <1991Aug7.152430.17799@hobbes.kzoo.edu> <1991Aug10.084637.6647@latcs1.lat.oz.au> Organization: Kalamazoo College Lines: 38 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:1678 sci.skeptic:13687 alt.paranormal:2453 In article <1991Aug10.084637.6647@latcs1.lat.oz.au> stephens@ipc1.lat.oz.au (Philip J Stephens) writes: >Josh Vander Berg writes: > >>Strange, I am aware of many skeletons having been found which were definitely >>non-human and non-ape, but primates...looking at one gap in the fossil record >>does not disprove the large body of fossil evidence which shows human's >>evolution from lower primates. > > But Josh, whilst there are gaps in the fossil record you cannot say >uneqivocally that a species represented by an earlier fossil "evoluted" into >a species represented by a later fossil. Looking at the similarities >between skeletal structure is not enough; you must also compare the soft >biology of the species, or better still obtain an accurate picture of their >DNA. Then once you are reasonably convinced that the two species are part >of an evolutionary path, you must fill in the transitionary forms by >extrapolation and show that they are all viable. > It goes without saying that the task of unequivocally proving evolution, >like any other theory, is not possible. But you can disprove evolution by >presenting evidence that contradicts the theory. Many potential examples of >such evidence have been presented over the decades, and to my knowledge >there still remains some of these cases which cannot be accounted for by >evolutionists (I am willing to present these if the need arises). fire away... > The theory of evolution is not airtight, and the problem areas are by no >means trivial. To suggest otherwise is paramount to ignorance. Of course it is not airtight. No theory is, and no theory is ever 100% accurate. All theories are models only, models made to best fit evidence that we have observed. I NEVER suggested that it was airtight, but that lack of evidence does not disprove something (ask a christian about this one) There is postive evidence that suggests evolution is a viable theory, and yes, there are gaps, there HAVE to be gaps, but these gaps in themselves prove NOTHING, they are LACK of proof, not proof for or against. -- Josh Vander Berg (k080093@kzoo.edu) Path: ns-mx!uunet!decwrl!sgi!shinobu!odin!news From: Todd Born Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: OH Krill facts?? Message-ID: <1991Aug12.004124.1934@odin.corp.sgi.com> Date: 12 Aug 91 00:41:24 GMT References: <1991Aug10.064459.2450@colorado.edu> Sender: news@odin.corp.sgi.com (Net News) Reply-To: todd_born@msmail.corp.sgi.com Organization: sgi.com Lines: 73 In article <1991Aug10.064459.2450@colorado.edu> clarkbr@spot.Colorado.EDU (CLARK BRIAN R) writes: > > > I read the OH Krill file posted recently by Don Allen, and would > like to pose a question to all interested, in particular Mr. Allen. > How can we assess the credibility of UFO information? The OH Krill > ** point here, just take the info and run, read below..... file was posted with the caveat that it is held in low esteem by the > UFO community; for what reasons is this so? How can the would-be > investigator separate the possible truth from the probable bullshit? ***by coming up with a unique way to investigate, becoming an experiment ( maybe via net??) > Those with experience in separating the wheat from the chaff would > help the rest of us by sharing their experience. Or is there no way of > avoiding the dis-information? Don, you have the floor... > *** I beleive that the way to credit or discredit this file is to do what don says. First, do not believe it all, be a skeptic, and reserarch it yourself. For me, an avid sci-fi fan, I thought it was in part possible, although the nagging question is, how to go about proving various parts to create a more believable whole: 1. devise a route (plan) that will allow you to research without beening detected. (greys, dont read this...) 2. Decipher the information into its most basic parts: a. time , date b. witness (s) c. location b. event 3. utilize this info to drag out facts from other angles (these should work...) (crops).a. try locating all heavy eqiupment paperwork, owners, leasing?? (cities underground) b. utilize local county records for incoming gov. employees #1(how about all those who work on these projects??) c. figure out who could work on what, what skills are involved, and run a scan college to college of majors associated with your findings d. next, trace most probable (4.0 nerds, Alternative groupies alien friendly, social misfits, the weak and lonely, the agressive and outgoing, blackmailed, or blackmailing) e. now , trace the most probable to their present location and decipher whether or not they would fit into the mould of dissapearing, personality change, or relocation) this based upon info from d. above f. finally, trace all those who have or had questionable spots (ie. was nowhere for three years, showed up in new Jeresy not knowing who they were, new fingerprints, etc) the rest I'll leave to your imagination, but there are other ways of getting info besides driving thru the gates at Area 51, etc. *** just some bulls___ to feed on. If I had the time, these would be some of the ways, (but not all!!) to verify stories. ATTENTION -= IF YOU HAVE ANY OTHER SUGGESTIONS, PLEASE TO NET !! TODD Path: ns-mx!uunet!decwrl!sgi!shinobu!odin!news From: Todd Born Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Hanger 19 and Roswell incident Message-ID: <1991Aug12.004600.2036@odin.corp.sgi.com> Date: 12 Aug 91 00:46:00 GMT References: <1991Jul25.142225.32301@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu> Sender: news@odin.corp.sgi.com (Net News) Organization: sgi.com Lines: 18 In article < >Speaking of weird things. Has anyone gone to Dulce or Lindreth(sp?) >New Mexico to look for the putative secret UFO bases under those >Mesas? Did anyone find anything interesting? > > > Have Fun, > Sends Steve > >E-mail Address: steve@olympus.prpa.philips.com > > > *** Steve, read my post on 'OH Krill facts?? I think that even though my ideas are not profound, these types of fact-hunting might get you somewhere. always try the back door, they're just waiting for in dulce ,NM. to tell you to leave, then get your licience #. not for me, I'd rather get the 'up' on the Gov and Greys for once.....todd Path: ns-mx!uunet!cbmvax!amix!vanth!jms From: jms@vanth.UUCP (Jim Shaffer) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Question on significant dates Message-ID: Date: 11 Aug 91 03:53:37 GMT References: <1991Aug02.041752.10131@lynx.CS.ORST.EDU> <1991Aug2.223300.5918@rodan.acs.syr.edu> <91219.124511IO10081@MAINE.MAINE.EDU> <1991Aug08.062048.19792@ariel.unm.edu> Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence Lines: 13 In article <1991Aug08.062048.19792@ariel.unm.edu> christ@cie.uoregon.edu (Christian G. Smith) writes: > > "In '98 we _ALL_ rotate..." - INXS Being only a casual fan of the band, I've always wondered what the hell they meant by that. I'm aware of the 1998 date for (insert your belief here), but what do INXS mean by it? -- * From the disk of: |****** NOTE NEW ADDRESSES ******| We're only immortal Jim Shaffer, Jr. |* uunet!snark!vanth!jms *| for a limited time. 37 Brook Street |**jms%vanth@snark.thyrsus.com***| Montgomery, PA 17752 | 72750.2335@compuserve.com | (Rush, "Dreamline") Path: ns-mx!uunet!cbmvax!amix!vanth!jms From: jms@vanth.UUCP (Jim Shaffer) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Reading material Message-ID: Date: 11 Aug 91 04:05:31 GMT References: <1022@cronos.metaphor.com> Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence Lines: 22 In article <1022@cronos.metaphor.com> eherrera@zinfandel.metaphor.com (Eric Herrera) writes: >Over the last few days some posters have recommended reading material on >the subject of this group. Specifically mentioned were the Streiber books >(with which I am already familiar), something called _Aliens Among Us_ >(I think) and a few others. I would appreciate someone sending me a >*short* bibliography -- I'd particularly like the info on _Aliens..._ >and a few other "must reads." "Aliens Among Us", along with the rest of Ruth Montgomery's books, is extremely New Age-biased. If reading of Atlantis and channeled entities bothers you, avoid it. (I read it once just to see what that part of the UFO world was up to. Usually I stick to things that are a bit more material. [Though I don't rule out the possibility of psychic/magickal experiences, it's impossible to verify that they really happened as opposed to being purely human in origin, and some of the literature based upon them is absolute drivel.]) -- * From the disk of: |****** NOTE NEW ADDRESSES ******| We're only immortal Jim Shaffer, Jr. |* uunet!snark!vanth!jms *| for a limited time. 37 Brook Street |**jms%vanth@snark.thyrsus.com***| Montgomery, PA 17752 | 72750.2335@compuserve.com | (Rush, "Dreamline") Path: ns-mx!uunet!cbmvax!amix!vanth!jms From: jms@vanth.UUCP (Jim Shaffer) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: needles, implants, tissue samples Message-ID: Date: 11 Aug 91 04:20:37 GMT References: <9851@awdprime.UUCP> <862@carbon.crc.ac.uk> <1991Aug8.160450.21836@cadence.com> Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence Lines: 17 In article <1991Aug8.160450.21836@cadence.com> jdm@cadence.com (Joe Mastroianni) writes: > >I think Strieber also says in "Communion" that the same thing happens to >his son. When he takes his kid to a pediatrician, the doctor looks up the >kids nose and says he dosent see anything abnormal. Just some openings in >the upper part of the nasal cavity which seem to be common in kids. >You are then supposed to wonder, as a thinking reader, why the hell is it >common for kids to have needle holes in the top of their nasal cavity? I haven't read anything by Strieber, but in "Intruders" Budd Hopkins says that a doctor told him that a lot of kids have holes there. -- * From the disk of: |****** NOTE NEW ADDRESSES ******| We're only immortal Jim Shaffer, Jr. |* uunet!snark!vanth!jms *| for a limited time. 37 Brook Street |**jms%vanth@snark.thyrsus.com***| Montgomery, PA 17752 | 72750.2335@compuserve.com | (Rush, "Dreamline") Path: ns-mx!uunet!cis.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!csn!scicom!paranet!p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG!Michael.Corbin From: Michael.Corbin@p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Michael Corbin) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Oh Krill Message-ID: <73598.28A5F407@paranet.FIDONET.ORG> Date: 12 Aug 91 00:40:00 GMT Sender: ufgate@paranet.FIDONET.ORG (newsout1.26) Organization: FidoNet node 1:104/428.0 - ParaNet(sm) A, Arvada CO Lines: 67 > From: clarkbr@spot.Colorado.EDU (CLARK BRIAN R) > Date: 10 Aug 91 06:44:59 GMT > Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder > Message-ID: <1991Aug10.064459.2450@colorado.edu> > Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors > > > > I read the OH Krill file posted recently by Don Allen, and would > like to pose a question to all interested, in particular Mr. Allen. > How can we assess the credibility of UFO information? The OH Krill > file was posted with the caveat that it is held in low esteem by the > UFO community; for what reasons is this so? How can the would-be > investigator separate the possible truth from the probable bullshit? After a lengthy investigation into this matter, we determined that it was based upon a compilation of science fiction stories over the years, combined with a little rumor about aliens being held captive by the U.S. Government, and all blended into a very cheap piece of work called "The Matrix" by an author, John Grace, using a pseudonym of Val Valerian. Grace and John Lear are good friends living in Las Vegas, NV. After much controversy, Lear admitted publicly that the material was all without substance. The name "O.H. Krill" stood for the "Original Hostage Krill" allegedly captured by the Air Force in the 60s and held captive in the deserts of Nevada. During his stay with our government, he wrote a book called "Yellow Book" which was about their culture and how they "cloned" Jesus Christ to keep us naughty humans in line. It goes on and on ad nauseum. Bottom line: I tend to hold those deliberately asserting bull as truth in very low esteem, for whatever reason. Additionally, there is a common thread between the crap that these guys espouse and what William L. Moore fed Dr. Paul Bennewitz as disinformation under the direction of the AFOSI (Air Force Office of Special Intelligence) at Kirland AFB in New Mexico. Many interesting threads going all to the same place. John Lear wrote several text files concerning the "aliens-eating-humans-from-underground-bases-in-Dulce, NM" scenario. Again, this is very similar to the stuff that was being fed to Bennewitz. Bennewitz later took an extended vacation for a nervous breakdown to allow the paranoia to wear off. This crap that goes on tends to create the most effective damage control to keep serious UFO study from moving forward. Too many normal people take one look at this crap and write the whole subject off. That is truly unfortunate because there is a valid phenomenon which deserves better attention than it gets at "the home for unwed paranoids." > Those with experience in separating the wheat from the chaff > would > help the rest of us by sharing their experience. Or is there no way > of > avoiding the dis-information? Don, you have the floor... I hope you don't mind my two cents on this, Brian. Very good point. That is just what we do at ParaNet. We are interested in the serious research. Sometimes that includes investigating these clowns that make so much noise, and when we find something, we write about it. We also hold the Gulf Breeze fiasco in low esteem for similar reasons. It is not so much that Ed Walters might have hoaxed the photos, it is the shoddy so-called "scientific investigation" that was done by those under the guise of a scientific organization. The data is very poor, including the photographic evidence. There is a lot more to this, and it is very complex. Mike -- Michael Corbin - via FidoNet node 1:104/422 UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name INTERNET: Michael.Corbin@p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!csn!scicom!paranet!p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG!Michael.Corbin From: Michael.Corbin@p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Michael Corbin) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Question On Significant Dates Message-ID: <73599.28A5F40A@paranet.FIDONET.ORG> Date: 12 Aug 91 00:54:00 GMT Sender: ufgate@paranet.FIDONET.ORG (newsout1.26) Organization: FidoNet node 1:104/428.0 - ParaNet(sm) A, Arvada CO Lines: 35 > From: csuxr@warwick.ac.uk (Andrew Shires) > Date: 10 Aug 91 21:03:47 GMT > Organization: Computing Services, Warwick University, UK > Message-ID: <1KR}6J+@warwick.ac.uk> > Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors > I posted a month or so ago with pretty much the same opinion of Streiber > as > Dan has -- mine based on reading the books, perhaps Dan knows more -- > and you > said then, most emphatically, that Streiber is not considered `credible' > by > UFOlogists. You've re-iterated that you think he's making it up, but > you > still don't say why. Can you tell the net what you think he was up to? > And what he has done in recent times that consolidate your opinion? I can't speculate on what he is up to. However, his actions towards his following were very wrong, in my opinion. He makes his grand statement about getting out of the business because of the researchers in the business. I don't believe that this is his real motivation. I have always been a strong detractor of anyone in UFOlogy dealing with abductees unless they are qualified medically. There is just too much emotional damage as a result of the experience. These support groups don't seem to address the trauma effectively. Streiber had a large following and just dumped them high and dry. Mike -- Michael Corbin - via FidoNet node 1:104/422 UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name INTERNET: Michael.Corbin@p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!csn!scicom!paranet!p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG!Michael.Corbin From: Michael.Corbin@p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Michael Corbin) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Strieber Message-ID: <73601.28A5F40E@paranet.FIDONET.ORG> Date: 12 Aug 91 01:44:00 GMT Sender: ufgate@paranet.FIDONET.ORG (newsout1.26) Organization: FidoNet node 1:104/428.0 - ParaNet(sm) A, Arvada CO Lines: 60 > From: dlcogswe@vela.acs.oakland.edu (Dan Cogswell) > Date: 11 Aug 91 05:49:53 GMT > Organization: Oakland University, Rochester MI. > Message-ID: <8877@vela.acs.oakland.edu> > Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors > I second this! Mike, if you don't want to back your opinion with *some* > facts, I don't find you very reasonable. I'll *bet* your main objection > to Strieber is that he takes the position that perhaps the Greys really > AREN'T evil. At least that classification would be too simplistic > according to him. Most material I see you post, Mike, has to do with > aliens as beings who are out to eat us humans. I find that argument > very thin and simplistic. Before you go off half-cocked, be sure that you know who is saying what. I DO NOT assert that the aliens are eating humans. I find this to be ridiculous. I have already posted something to the net about Strieber. I have many stories that I could tell, but it is not something for public consumption. Just suffice it to say that there is a considerable amount of controversy, including allegations of deception made by some of Strieber's followers, that attest to his character. Some areas that you might find interesting to poke around in is Strieber's connection to the occult. I have a transcript of him appearing on Oprah Winfrey prior to his first book on the subject of abduction being published. In this, he is clearly involved in the occult. As I have said before, responsible investigators of the UFO phenomenon try to keep their personal beliefs out of the data. Strieber has not done this. Alleged abductee victims require professional help in dealing with their trauma, not some casual coffee clique. > Andrew, my opinion of Strieber is mainly from reading his three books > (and what I've heard from others to a lesser extent). I've heard it > said that he's working for the government and affiliated with deceptive > government agents (Moore? Can't remember). If this person is the > "Wilfred Stone" character in _Majestic_ I think I can forgive him. :-) > I have a large amount of respect for Strieber mainly because he's > generally consistent, even though he admits he doesn't understand what's > going on. His theories are well thought-out and he's taken a fresher > approach to this thing than a lot of people. In my opinion, more people > involved in UFO research should be as thoughtful. You are certainly entitled to your opinion, as I am mine. The problem is if you are living in the real world, Strieber's writing and so-called theories are not enough to cut it. The problem is that we are dealing with real people, with real problems, not someone who is a prolific science fiction writer writing about something that has no basis in actual fact. If Strieber is, in fact, an abductee, then that is one thing, but to stand out as an expert or authority on what the phenomenon represents is totally outrageous. The problem with abduction research is that there are too many self-styled "experts" out there leading people around by the nose without having any real idea of what they are dealing with. As for UFO researchers, serious researchers, are more thoughtful and spend their time on real investigation. Mike -- Michael Corbin - via FidoNet node 1:104/422 UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name INTERNET: Michael.Corbin@p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!csn!scicom!paranet!p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG!Michael.Corbin From: Michael.Corbin@p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Michael Corbin) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Hello? Hello-o! Message-ID: <73600.28A5F40C@paranet.FIDONET.ORG> Date: 12 Aug 91 01:29:00 GMT Sender: ufgate@paranet.FIDONET.ORG (newsout1.26) Organization: FidoNet node 1:104/428.0 - ParaNet(sm) A, Arvada CO Lines: 38 > From: eherrera@zinfandel.metaphor.com (Eric Herrera) > Date: 11 Aug 91 05:26:32 GMT > Organization: Metaphor Computer Systems, Mountain View, CA > Message-ID: <1052@cronos.metaphor.com> > Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Here is my suggested reading list: The Report on Unidentified Flying Objects Edward Ruppelt Ruppelt was the head of Project Blue Book in the 50s All books by Donald Keyhoe The UFO Controversy in America Dr. David Jacobs This book is an excellent reference work Clear Intent Barry Greenwood Above Top Secret Timothy Good UFO Crash at Roswell Kevin Randle/Don Schmitt Excellent read! Hope this gets you started. Mike -- Michael Corbin - via FidoNet node 1:104/422 UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name INTERNET: Michael.Corbin@p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG Path: ns-mx!uunet!wupost!m.cs.uiuc.edu!vela!dlcogswe From: dlcogswe@vela.acs.oakland.edu (Dan Cogswell) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Strieber Message-ID: <8911@vela.acs.oakland.edu> Date: 12 Aug 91 11:39:00 GMT References: <73601.28A5F40E@paranet.FIDONET.ORG> Organization: Oakland University, Rochester MI. Lines: 78 Michael.Corbin@p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Michael Corbin) writes: >Before you go off half-cocked, be sure that you know who is saying what. I DO >NOT assert that the aliens are eating humans. I find this to be ridiculous. Sorry about that. I stand corrected. >Some areas that you might find interesting to poke >around in is Strieber's connection to the occult. I have a transcript of him >appearing on Oprah Winfrey prior to his first book on the subject of abduction >being published. In this, he is clearly involved in the occult. So what? He's spoken of his experiences with Wiccan (?) religious organizations in one of his books. I don't see a New Age influence in his UFO writings other than that. You can be involved in occult and still be rational about being abducted. > As I have >said before, responsible investigators of the UFO phenomenon try to keep their >personal beliefs out of the data. Strieber has not done this. *What* data? All he *HAS* is personal beliefs. He's not a UFO investigator; he's someone who's supposedly had an abduction experience and has attempted to relate it AS HE SEES IT. I would assume that a good percentage of information would reside in his subconscious, so his personal beliefs would almost certainly have been shaped by visitor experiences that he can't consciously remember. In other words, if he says "X" happened and I think it means "Y" he may be right because this is what he feels about that (without immediately knowing why). > Alleged >abductee victims require professional help in dealing with their trauma, not >some casual coffee clique. Again, give me an example of his missdealings with abduction victims. I find it hard to believe that many people out there know more about what's going on (and are willing to share it). Certainly, he's not a doctor, but most doctors have never been abducted. I'd like to see an instance where he's over-stepped his bounds of authority. >You are certainly entitled to your opinion, as I am mine. The problem is if >you are living in the real world, Strieber's writing and so-called theories >are not enough to cut it. The problem is that we are dealing with real >people, with real problems, not someone who is a prolific science fiction >writer writing about something that has no basis in actual fact. Oh, come on! You sitting here telling me he has fabricated his whole story without giving me one lick of proof is *much* worse than the story he's presented: at least he's made significant attempts to substantiate things. He's taken lie detector tests, given dates and places, given information on how to contact him, etc. I still don't see an instance where he's tried to deceive people. >If Strieber >is, in fact, an abductee, then that is one thing, but to stand out as an >expert or authority on what the phenomenon represents is totally outrageous. >The problem with abduction research is that there are too many self-styled >"experts" out there leading people around by the nose without having any real >idea of what they are dealing with. Does anybody know more than anyone else? I'd say you're equally in the dark about this as he is (no offense :-). I don't think you're going to be succesful portraying Strieber as a blood-sucking cult leader. Up to this point, I see his work as an honest attempt to explain what is happening to him and others. I've seen no evidence to the contrary and *you don't present any*. To scoff at him and call him a phoney without backing it up with something other than opinion is far worse than anything he's done. >As for UFO researchers, serious >researchers, are more thoughtful and spend their time on real investigation. And serious researcher back things up with evidence. Please provide us with some regarding Strieber. >Michael Corbin - via FidoNet node 1:104/422 -- Dan Cogswell dlcogswe@vela.acs.oakland.edu Mostly H20 and whatever pizza and Diet Pepsi digest into Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!ego.uh.cwru.edu!manfredi From: manfredi@ego.uh.cwru.edu Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Project Majestic Question Message-ID: <1991Aug12.111120.1@ego.uh.cwru.edu> Date: 12 Aug 91 16:11:20 GMT References: <55210001@hpcupt1.cup.hp.com> Sender: news@usenet.ins.cwru.edu Organization: Image Analysis Center, Univ. Hospitals of Cleveland" Lines: 24 Nntp-Posting-Host: ego.uh.cwru.edu In article <55210001@hpcupt1.cup.hp.com>, trey@hpcupt1.cup.hp.com (Trey Wedge) writes: > Has anyone seen the MJ-12 or Project Majestic text from Cooper here, > or somewhere? A better question is... has anyone saved it? Q: Are you referring to Bill Cooper here? If so, the *best* authority on him (IMHO) is Mary Ann Hawk, co-director of the Cleveland UFOlogy Pro- ject in Cleveland, Ohio. She has attended conferences and seminars (on UFOs and psychotronics) all over the world, and as a consequence has come across Mr. Cooper and/or his material very often. She is always happy to share. If you would like further information on Ms. Hawk or C.U.P., please E-mail me. > A friend who is not on the net wants a copy of something that > I had seen on the net in alt.conspiracy about a year ago, about > the Project Majestic and links to the FBI CIA etc. > > Anyone have any info? Please reply by E-mail if possible. FYI: Majestic, by Whitley Streiber, is an excellent *reference* source on ^^^^^^^^ MJ-12. He wrote the book after interviewing many people involved with/ related to the project. No disclaimer. WE'RE ALL ONE. Path: ns-mx!uunet!mcsun!ukc!dcl-cs!gdt!aber!aberda!aro From: aro@cs.aber.ac.uk (Andy Ormsby) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal Subject: Re: Answer to how life got started on Earth. Message-ID: Date: 12 Aug 91 15:17:01 GMT References: <1991Aug3.170949.19919@hobbes.kzoo.edu> <1991Aug6.120038.17853@ujocs.joensuu.fi> <1991Aug7.152430.17799@hobbes.kzoo.edu> <1991Aug10.084637.6647@latcs1.lat.oz.au> Sender: news@aber.ac.uk (USENET news service) Reply-To: aro@cs.aber.ac.uk (Andrew Ormsby) Organization: Computer Science Dept. University College of Wales, Aberystwyth Lines: 11 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:1690 sci.skeptic:13698 alt.paranormal:2456 In-Reply-To: stephens@ipc1.lat.oz.au's message of 10 Aug 91 08: 46:37 GMT Nntp-Posting-Host: zeus In article <1991Aug10.084637.6647@latcs1.lat.oz.au> stephens@ipc1.lat.oz.au (Philip J Stephens) writes: > But you can disprove evolution by > presenting evidence that contradicts the theory. Many potential examples of > such evidence have been presented over the decades, and to my knowledge > there still remains some of these cases which cannot be accounted for by > evolutionists (I am willing to present these if the need arises). OK. Disprove evolution. Andy Ormsby, aro@cs.aber.ac.uk Path: ns-mx!uunet!cadence!jdm From: jdm@cadence.com (Joe Mastroianni) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: needles, implants, tissue samples Message-ID: <1991Aug12.165414.19073@cadence.com> Date: 12 Aug 91 16:54:14 GMT References: <862@carbon.crc.ac.uk> <1991Aug8.160450.21836@cadence.com> Organization: Cadence Design Systems, Inc. Lines: 30 In article jms@vanth.UUCP (Jim Shaffer) writes: >In article <1991Aug8.160450.21836@cadence.com> jdm@cadence.com (Joe Mastroianni) writes: >> >>I think Strieber also says in "Communion" that the same thing happens to >>his son. When he takes his kid to a pediatrician, the doctor looks up the >>kids nose and says he dosent see anything abnormal. Just some openings in >>the upper part of the nasal cavity which seem to be common in kids. >>You are then supposed to wonder, as a thinking reader, why the hell is it >>common for kids to have needle holes in the top of their nasal cavity? > >I haven't read anything by Strieber, but in "Intruders" Budd Hopkins says >that a doctor told him that a lot of kids have holes there. > >-- > * From the disk of: |****** NOTE NEW ADDRESSES ******| We're only immortal > Jim Shaffer, Jr. |* uunet!snark!vanth!jms *| for a limited time. > 37 Brook Street |**jms%vanth@snark.thyrsus.com***| > Montgomery, PA 17752 | 72750.2335@compuserve.com | (Rush, "Dreamline") Thanks Jim. Im misquoting again. I read the two books "Communion" and "Intruders" in rapid succession over a boring summer weekend last year. I sometimes get my references confused. Joe -- Joe Mastroianni AKA: AA6YD AA6YD @ N6LDL.#NOCAL.CA.USA.NA Cadence Design Systems Santa Clara Ca. "Up the airy mountain;down the rushy glen; we jdm@cadence.com daren't go a hunting; for fear of little men " Path: ns-mx!uunet!convex!swarren From: swarren@convex.com (Steve Warren) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal Subject: Re: Answer to how life got started on Earth. Message-ID: <1991Aug12.172111.10543@convex.com> Date: 12 Aug 91 17:21:11 GMT References: <1991Aug6.120038.17853@ujocs.joensuu.fi> <1991Aug7.152430.17799@hobbes.kzoo.edu> <1779@ether.UUCP> Sender: usenet@convex.com (news access account) Organization: CONVEX Computer Corporation, Richardson, Tx., USA Lines: 32 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:1692 sci.skeptic:13702 alt.paranormal:2459 Nntp-Posting-Host: neptune.convex.com In article <1779@ether.UUCP> kellym@ether.UUCP (Kelly M McArthur) writes: [... introductory statement deleted ...] >As I understand it, about 10,000 years ago, there were far fewer sorts >of dogs running around. Mostly wolves and dingo sorts of things. There >did not exist roving bands of vicisous Lhasa Apsos or Miniature Schnauzers >taking down running antelope or attacking tribes of hunter-gatherers. >Many breeds of dogs were "created" by man, through breeding for selected, >although often very peculiar traits (see Dauschund). These dogs are not only >highly evolved (unevolved?) from their anscestors, but this has taken place >in startlingly few generations. If 10^3 years will turn a wolf into a >poodle, imagine what can happen in 10^6 years? 10^8? No one seriously involved in this debate suggests that the mechanism of natural selection does not exist. Your argument is a strawman. The breeding of dogs is nothing more than refining and seperating existing genetic traits. No new species are created. By remixing all of the domesticated dogs in the correct proportions you would obtain the same mongrel wild dog that was the ancestor of all our domestic dogs of today. There has not been any transformation here. This is nothing but a shifting around of pre-existing sets of genes. This argument only demonstrates that selection among existing traits is possible. No one denies this fact. -- _. --Steve ._||__ Warren v\ *| V Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!samsung!munnari.oz.au!ariel!ucsvc.ucs.unimelb.edu.au!luga!latcs1!slc4.lat.oz.au!stephens From: stephens@slc4.lat.oz.au (Philip J Stephens) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,talk.origins Subject: Re: Answer to how life got started on Earth. Message-ID: <1991Aug12.055904.9163@latcs1.lat.oz.au> Date: 12 Aug 91 05:59:04 GMT References: <1991Aug7.152430.17799@hobbes.kzoo.edu> <1991Aug10.084637.6647@latcs1.lat.oz.au> <1991Aug11.075605.845@newcastle.ac.uk> Sender: news@latcs1.lat.oz.au Organization: Comp Sci, La Trobe Uni, Australia Lines: 32 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:1693 sci.skeptic:13704 alt.paranormal:2460 talk.origins:10461 Nntp-Posting-Host: slc4.lat.oz.au William Coyne writes: >It may not be airtight but its far better than the alternative scientific >theories. Apart from Lamarkianism (which is still a form of evolution >are they any other scientific theories which compete with neodarwinian >evolution. Just so you know, we've moved the discussion to talk.origins where it belongs. Also, in response to the energetic person who just had to try and bait me (no offense taken, by the way) I am not attempting to discredit evolution and replace it with another theory -- for starters, as William here points out, there is no theory that can compete with evolution, and I don't claim to have one!!! All I'm interested in is getting the evolutionists to put forward the solutions to problems that anti-evolutionists have raised. Virtually every book I've read for or against evolution fails to take every aspect of a problem into account. I have never seen a full treatment of a problem presented. Obviously I haven't read all the material available, and so I want those who are qualified to present that information on a public forum. If it's all being done before and people are sick of it, then so be it -- give it to me through e-mail. In summary then: my aim is not to push an anti-evolution line. Rather, I'm simply acting as a Devil's avocate so that I can get some solid answers, not wishy-washy ones. <\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/><\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\> < Philip J. Stephens >< "Many views yield the truth." > < Hons. student, Computer Science >< "Therefore, be not alone." > < La Trobe University, Melbourne >< - Prime Song of the viggies, from > < AUSTRALIA >< THE ENGIMA SCORE by Sheri S Tepper > Path: ns-mx!uunet!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!usc!samsung!munnari.oz.au!ariel!ucsvc.ucs.unimelb.edu.au!luga!latcs1!ipc1.lat.oz.au!stephens From: stephens@ipc1.lat.oz.au (Philip J Stephens) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Answer to how life got started on Earth. Message-ID: <1991Aug12.073239.11963@latcs1.lat.oz.au> Date: 12 Aug 91 07:32:39 GMT References: <1991Aug7.152430.17799@hobbes.kzoo.edu> <1991Aug10.084637.6647@latcs1.lat.oz.au> <20193@helios.TAMU.EDU> Sender: news@latcs1.lat.oz.au Organization: Comp Sci, La Trobe Uni, Australia Lines: 11 Nntp-Posting-Host: ipc1.lat.oz.au Richard, I am not a Christian. Please don't lump everyone who has doubts about evolution into the creationist box. It's an insult both to me and those who *are* Christians. <\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/><\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\> < Philip J. Stephens >< "Many views yield the truth." > < Hons. student, Computer Science >< "Therefore, be not alone." > < La Trobe University, Melbourne >< - Prime Song of the viggies, from > < AUSTRALIA >< THE ENGIMA SCORE by Sheri S Tepper > Path: ns-mx!uunet!timbuk!shamash!duke!jrd From: jrd@duke.cdc.com (john r douglas x6668) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal Subject: Re: Answer to how life got started on Earth. Summary: Here we go again! Keywords: Pseudo-scientific Christian Right Message-ID: <35766@shamash.cdc.com> Date: 12 Aug 91 18:11:13 GMT References: <1991Aug3.170949.19919@hobbes.kzoo.edu> <1991Aug6.120038.17853@ujocs.joensuu.fi> <1991Aug7.152430.17799@hobbes.kzoo.edu> <1991Aug10.084637.6647@latcs1.lat.oz.au> Sender: usenet@shamash.cdc.com Reply-To: jrd@mips.COM (john r douglas x6668) Followup-To: alt.alien.visitors Organization: CDC, Arden Hills, MN Lines: 45 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:1695 sci.skeptic:13706 alt.paranormal:2461 >In article <1991Aug10.084637.6647@latcs1.lat.oz.au> stephens@ipc1.lat.oz.au >(Philip J Stephens) writes: >> But you can disprove evolution by >> presenting evidence that contradicts the theory. Many potential examples of >> such evidence have been presented over the decades, and to my knowledge >> there still remains some of these cases which cannot be accounted for by >> evolutionists (I am willing to present these if the need arises). Andrew Responds.. >OK. Disprove evolution. Andrew, below is the usual response to your question. The most common argument, after the one of *faith*, is this simple demonstration: Critter A Critter B <------- Show us the intermediate critter --------> And upon critter AB being found the challenge becomes: Critter A Critter AB <------- Show us the intermediate critter --------> If indeed Philip has *proof* of his theories, I would appreciate quantitive proof of the existemce of *Creationism* and we can evaluate that. What usually happens is some vague attack on a minor point they extract from their reading of evolution. John to win by default. *--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--* * * A round man cannot be * * John Douglas * expected to fit in a * * Arden Hills, MN * square hole right away. * * Control Data Corp. * He must be given time * * * to adjust his shape. * * * - Mark Twain - * *--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--* * Note to resident net PC talk nazi: Please * * substitute critter for man in above reference.* *--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--* Path: ns-mx!uunet!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!usc!samsung!umich!yale!hsdndev!dartvax!mars.caps.maine.edu!maine.maine.edu!io10081 From: IO10081@MAINE.MAINE.EDU (The Xanadian) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: ExcuuUUuuse meee pleeease... I have a problem... Message-ID: <91224.181110IO10081@MAINE.MAINE.EDU> Date: 12 Aug 91 22:11:10 GMT Organization: University of Maine System Lines: 12 A while back (a looong while back), I received a letter from someone. I replied and was anxiously waiting a reply back. Well, needless to say, that account is now gone and all of the stuff in it. If the reply was there, I am going to be verry angry. Boy I love computers. >:-/ The old account was IO00671@maine.maine.edu (The Doctor). It had to do with the dangers (?) of meeting aliens. If the person with whom I was discussing this is reading this now, PLEASE IN THE NAME OF GOD respond. Thank you for your time. Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!samsung!umich!yale!hsdndev!dartvax!mars.caps.maine.edu!maine.maine.edu!io10081 From: IO10081@MAINE.MAINE.EDU (The Xanadian) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Hello? Hello-o! (answer to his last question, if u r interested) Message-ID: <91224.180750IO10081@MAINE.MAINE.EDU> Date: 12 Aug 91 22:07:50 GMT References: <1052@cronos.metaphor.com> Organization: University of Maine System Lines: 9 In article <1052@cronos.metaphor.com>, eherrera@zinfandel.metaphor.com (Eric Herrera) says: > >Oh yeah, what's a "Xian"? I believe a "Xian" is supposed to be an abbreviation for Christian. I don't really know what that has to do with aliens, tho... where did you see it here? Path: ns-mx!uunet!wupost!ukma!psuvax1!hsdndev!dartvax!mars.caps.maine.edu!maine.maine.edu!io10081 From: IO10081@MAINE.MAINE.EDU (The Xanadian) Newsgroups: misc.misc,alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal Subject: Re: SURVEY #2. Message-ID: <91224.190803IO10081@MAINE.MAINE.EDU> Date: 12 Aug 91 23:08:03 GMT Organization: University of Maine System Lines: 86 Supersedes: <91224.184557IO10081@MAINE.MAINE.EDU> Xref: ns-mx misc.misc:5040 alt.alien.visitors:1698 alt.paranormal:2465 Here's my responses to my own questions. Ain't that quaint????? :-E) In article <91219.152920IO10081@MAINE.MAINE.EDU>, The Xanadian says: > > >19. Name 5 of your favorite movies. Bill & Ted's Excellent Adventure (most triumphant dOOd) Back to the Future Star Trek 4 Robin Hood-- Prince of Thieves Terminator 2 (ya, mr shwartzenegger is no girlie-man) >19a. Name your most favorite RECENT movie. Robin Hood (duh!) >20. What political party (if any) do you belong to? Republican..... MAYBE! >:-| > >21. Name 5 _modern_ tunes (if any) (since 1988) that you like. > (followup to #5.) "The Promise" When in Rome "Enjoy the Silence" Depeche Mode <<<<<<====== all time favorite "Lovesong" The Cure "Dont Worry Be Happy" BoBby McFerrin :-) "Wind of Change" Scorpions > >22. Do you belong to any clubs/organizations? Sssoitannly! (yes) >22a. If YES, then name no more than five of them. Society for Creative Anachronisms Naval ROTC (blows 'em all away!) UMaine Blade Society > >23. Y/N/M Do you think, or, do you consider yourself creative? (*) How? > (clarify a Maybe) Yes > >24. Name your favorite _type_ or style of music, if any. If more than > one, name them. Pop rock--the underdogs mostly, Enya's stuff, classical, soul > >25. Name your favorite form(s) of entertainment. Frigging around on the computer, FENCING (ya), TV, books. >25a. What type of movie/TV show do you prefer the most? Comedy? Drama? Etc. Comedy, Adventure, Fantasy > >26* Assume you are on a planet with no name (followup to number 9). What > name would you give it-- >26a* ...if it was a desert planet? Sahara >26b* ...if it was a tropical planet? Tropica (I suppose...) >26c* ...if it was a frozen planet? Brrrr... (no really-- arctica) >26d* ...if it were just like Earth (except there are no people but you and > some others..no pollution, roads, buildings, etc.)? Heh heh. (i like this one) Xanadu. >26e* If a new civilization was to be established here, what would you do > to help it along? Or, rather, what part(s), if any, would you take > in the starting of this community? I would just like to lead the expedition there. Once there, I would only ask that its name be (you guessed it) and that I would have a decent place to live. If asked to lead the planet for a while I may. More than likely I would help to build houses for the people of this new planet. Other things but I am running out of time... > >27. Do you or have you ever held a position of leadership to any degree? > (have you ever led people) Absolutely! Many times, in fact > >28. What games do you like to play, if any? Nintendo, Canasta & other card games, chess (sometimes..havent for a whil > >29. Followup to number 8: If this person promoted over you was of EQUAL > competence and ability as you, would you be upset? Maybe >29a* If this person was of another sex or race? (remember that a * means > the question is optional!) Here, I'd rather not say... > >30* Truly one of the most debated moral(?) dilemmas in history-- What do > you think about abortion? (remember the *) I think abortion should be allowed if the mother is in danger of any type (especially of her father.. one of my anxieties!) Otherwise, I am relatively against it. But if someone wants to do it, it's a free country. I still think it's a bit disgusting. Have fun piddling around with my questions. Don't take 'em _too_ seriously, and don't take 'em _too_ jokingly either. Path: ns-mx!umaxc.weeg.uiowa.edu From: zharman@umaxc.weeg.uiowa.edu (Zachary Harman) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Reply to 'Web of Conspiracy'....ALIEN PLOT??!?!! Message-ID: <7589@ns-mx.uiowa.edu> Date: 13 Aug 91 01:47:55 GMT Sender: news@ns-mx.uiowa.edu Organization: U of Iowa, Iowa City, IA Lines: 14 There was a time in my life when I was convinced of this whole alien plot. Now however, I am very skeptical of it all. After reading Don Allen's four-part "Web of Conspiracy" posting, I am dissapointed. Can anyone possibly believe that something so fictional is really going on here? I'm not saying it's a lie. I wouldn't be overly suprised if it was true. But _ALOT_ of doubt exists in my mind and we all better hope it's a lie. If what I read WAS the truth..... Then GOD bless us all... (What does everyone else think about this???) Path: ns-mx!uunet!fernwood!cronos!zinfandel!eherrera From: eherrera@zinfandel.metaphor.com (Eric Herrera) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Hello? Hello-o! (answer to his last question, if u r interested) Message-ID: <1062@cronos.metaphor.com> Date: 13 Aug 91 02:30:28 GMT References: <1052@cronos.metaphor.com> <91224.180750IO10081@MAINE.MAINE.EDU> Sender: news@cronos.metaphor.com Organization: Metaphor Computer Systems, Mountain View, CA Lines: 21 In article <91224.180750IO10081@MAINE.MAINE.EDU> IO10081@MAINE.MAINE.EDU (The Xanadian) writes: >In article <1052@cronos.metaphor.com>, eherrera@zinfandel.metaphor.com (Eric >Herrera) says: >> >>Oh yeah, what's a "Xian"? > > I believe a "Xian" is supposed to be an abbreviation for Christian. > > I don't really know what that has to do with aliens, tho... where did >you see it here? I think I saw it in a post about all of that "How life began an Earth" stuff. The writer ended his article with "Anyway that's what the Xians say" or something to that effect. -- ...................................................................... ___ : Eric P. Herrera : My opinions only... (__ ' . : Metaphor Computer Systems : Don't blame Metaphor / ,_ , _ : Mountain View, CA :....................... (___)/ (_/(_(_, : eherrera@zinfandel.metaphor.com ...................................................................... Path: ns-mx!uunet!fernwood!cronos!zinfandel!eherrera From: eherrera@zinfandel.metaphor.com (Eric Herrera) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: I'm part Apache... Message-ID: <1063@cronos.metaphor.com> Date: 13 Aug 91 02:34:02 GMT Sender: news@cronos.metaphor.com Distribution: usa Organization: Metaphor Computer Systems, Mountain View, CA Lines: 9 Originator: eherrera@zinfandel ...so when is that New Mexico field trip taking place??? -- ...................................................................... ___ : Eric P. Herrera : My opinions only... (__ ' . : Metaphor Computer Systems : Don't blame Metaphor / ,_ , _ : Mountain View, CA :....................... (___)/ (_/(_(_, : eherrera@zinfandel.metaphor.com ...................................................................... Path: ns-mx!uunet!cbmvax!amix!vanth!jms From: jms@vanth.UUCP (Jim Shaffer) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: OH Krill intro/README Message-ID: Date: 12 Aug 91 16:54:29 GMT References: <1991Aug8.054517.24157@bilver.uucp> Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence Lines: 17 In article <1991Aug8.054517.24157@bilver.uucp> dona@bilver.uucp (Don Allen) writes: > >Aside from the William Milton Cooper material, these 4 files are >considered to be highly controversial in the field of UFOlogy. The >"author" of this work, "O. H. Krill" is believed to have been a joint >effort of John Grace and John Lear. As the story goes, this file was >put together (according to sources close to John Lear) to "smoke out >the dis-informants in the field". The way I heard it, it was put together to see if Cooper would incorporate it into his story as material he had allegedly seen himself. -- * From the disk of: |****** NOTE NEW ADDRESSES ******| We're only immortal Jim Shaffer, Jr. |* uunet!snark!vanth!jms *| for a limited time. 37 Brook Street |**jms%vanth@snark.thyrsus.com***| Montgomery, PA 17752 | 72750.2335@compuserve.com | (Rush, "Dreamline") Path: ns-mx!uunet!cbmvax!amix!vanth!jms From: jms@vanth.UUCP (Jim Shaffer) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy Subject: Re: FILE: OH Krill part 2 Message-ID: Date: 12 Aug 91 17:32:07 GMT References: <1991Aug8.055040.24308@bilver.uucp> Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence Lines: 74 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:1703 alt.conspiracy:6579 In article <1991Aug8.055040.24308@bilver.uucp> dona@bilver.uucp (Don Allen) writes: [Dulce papers summary] >of crystalline metal, pure gold crystal, and what looks like >either a genetic or metallurgical diagram or chart. Also attached >is what looks like an x-ray diffraction pattern and a diagram of >hexagonal crystals, with a comment that they are best for >electrical conduction. There was a report in the newspaper last week about attempts to produce a high-temperature superconductor by doping buckminsterfullerene, a carbon molecule which looks like a soccer ball -- hexagons and pentagons. > Let's change direction for a moment. One individual by the >name of Lew Tery has been working on some ideas regarding UFOs and >geomagnetic anomalies. I will go into what he has discovered >(although the concept of the relationship is not new) and let you >judge that for yourself. > After purchasing aeromagnetic and gravitational anomaly maps >from the United States Geological Survey, it becomes evident that >there was indeed a valid connection between these areas and UFOs. >Mr. Tery gave a lecture in Arizona about that relationship, and >was subsequently harassed by the FBI, and told that the >information is "sensitive." Mr. Tery took the hint and declined to >talk publicly about it to the degree that he had been doing. > Both the aeromagnetic and gravitational (Bougier Gravity) >maps indicate basic field strength, as well as areas of high and >low field strength. Interestingly enough, the areas of maximum and >minimum field strength have the following: > > o All have frequent UFO sightings. > o All are either on Indian Reservations, government > land, or the government is trying to buy up the land. > o Many of them, especially where several are clustered > together, are suspected bases areas and/or areas > where mutilations and abductions have historically > taken place. > > In these observations, Mr. Tery has gone far, but he has gone >a little farther in noting that there are times when the UFOs are >seen in these areas. Through painstaking research, Mr. Tery found >that the sightings, as well as many abductions and mutilations, >occur: > o On the new moon or within two days before the new > moon. > o On the full moon or within two days before the full > moon. > o At the perihelion (moon closest to earth) or within > two days before the perihelion. If it wouldn't be for the "weird" aspects, i.e. the abductions and mutilations, I'd be inclined to hypothesize that the gravitational anomalies represent geological formations which, when stressed by the moon's gravity, create lights by piezoelectric means. Refer to Michael Persinger's work on "earthquake lights." Persinger also believes that such emissions affect the mind, causing the hallucination of being abducted. Unfortunately it doesn't explain physical traces of abduction, but it could explain some cases. I'm not sure whether the moon's gravity is strong enough to create the necessary stress though. The Old Farmer's Almanac seems to think that the moon could cause earthquakes, but I haven't heard the claim from any other source. Tom Bearden also has a theory relating electromagnetism, gravity, and psychic phenomena that could (if true) apply here, but it's too complex to go into in this article. -- * From the disk of: |****** NOTE NEW ADDRESSES ******| We're only immortal Jim Shaffer, Jr. |* uunet!snark!vanth!jms *| for a limited time. 37 Brook Street |**jms%vanth@snark.thyrsus.com***| Montgomery, PA 17752 | 72750.2335@compuserve.com | (Rush, "Dreamline") Path: ns-mx!uunet!cbmvax!amix!vanth!jms From: jms@vanth.UUCP (Jim Shaffer) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy Subject: Re: FILE: OH Krill part 3 Message-ID: Date: 12 Aug 91 19:56:23 GMT References: <1991Aug8.055219.24384@bilver.uucp> Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence Lines: 139 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:1704 alt.conspiracy:6580 Part 3 contains several statements which have been extremely sensationalized. When distributing the file to people I don't know very well, I usually annotate them to prevent anyone with insufficient background (i.e., complete newcomers to the field) from getting excited about them. I also have a few comments on other parts of this section. In article <1991Aug8.055219.24384@bilver.uucp> dona@bilver.uucp (Don Allen) writes: > [attempts at psychically investigating mutilations] While these reports are fascinating, I wonder how much exposure to the field the psychics had before being asked to undertake this task. It would be most interesting to see what a psychic with a good record of success, but no exposure to UFOlogy in general or mutilations in specific, had to say about them. The names and places mentioned would also be interesting to check out. Unfortunately I'm too far from the center of all the action to do it. > At this point, I will put some references and excerpts from >some volumes that I believe are relevant to all the things we've >been talking about. Where I feel it is applicable, I will comment >on them. And I will comment on them further. :-) >"Extra-Terrestrials Among Us" > > (p8) JANAP-146 specifies up to 10 years in prison and $10,000 >in fines for anyone in government service who makes unauthorized >public statements about UFO phenomena. The British Official >Secrets Act makes similar provisions. Although I'm not familiar with the acts in question, I would feel reasonably safe guessing that they were intended to prevent the spread of panic if the idea that UFOs were hostile foreign (human) vehicles should arise. > (p16) On September 14, 1978, a UFO as big as an ocean liner >flew over Italy, and over Rome on the 15th and 16th. > Comment: This was two weeks before Pope John Paul I was found >dead under suspicious circumstances. He was killed between >September 28-29. Autopsy was refused. It was rumored he intended >to reveal the Fatima message of 1917. The suspiciousness (?) of the circumstances is open to interpretation. The statement "He was killed" is uncalled for in my opinion. > (p24) Dr. Brian T. Clifford (Pentagon) announces on October >5, 1982, that contact between U.S. citizens and extraterrestrials >on their vehicles is illegal. Title 14, Section 1211 of the Code >of Federal Regulations (adopted July 16, 1969, before the first >manned lunar landing) says that anyone guilty of this becomes a >wanted criminal to be jailed for one year and fined $5,000. The >NASA administrator is empowered to determine WITH OR WITHOUT A >HEARING that a person has been "ET-exposed" and impose >INDETERMINATE quarantine under armed guard, which cannot be broken >even by court order. I don't know what context Dr. Clifford's statement was made in, but the intent of the original law was to prevent contamination by lunar microbes while such things were still considered to be a possibility. (The original law said something like 'any vehicle exposed to an extraterrestrial environment', not 'extraterrestrials or their vehicles.') If anyone has the full text of Dr. Clifford's statement, please post it. This is precisely the sort of quoting-out-of-context that I was complaining about at the beginning of my article. > (p25) Records of the 687 B.C. battle between the Assyrians >and the Hebrews indicate that "a blast from heaven" reduced the >bodies of 185,000 Assyrians to ashes but left their clothes >intact. Microwaves? > (p145) Morris K. Jessup died under mysterious circumstances >after a copy of his book "Case for the UFO" was sent to the Chief >of the Office of Naval Research (ONR) in Washington. Ugh. More of this damned sensationalizing of well-known facts! Anyone interested in the full story of the life and death of Dr. Jessup should read "The Philadelphia Experiment" by Berlitz and Moore. To summarize, however, Dr. Jessup died *years* after the book was sent. Although the strange turn his life took after its publication probably contributed to his depression, there were much more immediate mundane factors as well. There are unanswered questions, such as why did he call someone hours earlier and say he was coming to visit him to discuss what he thought was the solution to the Philadelphia Experiment mystery, and how did he drive his car out to the park when he was so drunk, but that's not my point here. The statement quoted above makes it sound like the government immediately sent out a hit squad or something. Completely untrue. > (p150) Alleged alien comment in annotated edition of "Case >for the UFO": "Men frozen helpless make good prey." I haven't read the book, but given the fact that the annotator was Carlos Allende, the above statement probably refers to the frozen-in-spacetime phenomenon resulting from bungled dematerializations. However, Bill Cooper also says something about the aliens giving a cryogenics demonstration using some government officials as test subjects, then refusing to unfreeze them unless the government cooperated with the aliens. > (p151) Dr. James E. McDonald thought that the Federal Power >Commission was evading the evidence concerning UFO involvement in >the total power failure that paralyzed New York on July 13, 1965, >and dared to say so in front of a Congressional committee. > > (p152) On June 13, 1971, James E. McDonald was found dead >under mysterious circumstances, shot through the head with a >pistol by his side. I'm not sure what's being implied here, since there's nearly six years between events! The only UFO involvement in the great blackout that I'm aware of was a ball of light spotted over a substation. Does anyone know anything else about the "mysterious" circumstances of McDonald's death? > (p159) George Adamski, contactee in the 1950s had a special >government passport. Possible CIA disinformation agent. Interesting, but can anyone verify? (I've also heard that Wendelle Stevens is trying to resurrect the Adamski scenario. Very weird!) > (p208) It is odd that among the viruses there are some that >look like UFOs, like T. Bacteriophage. Do some UFO have the >ability to operate in the micro-dimension of viruses? Comment: In >the discipline of Yoga is noted the ability to become large or >small. What on Earth was the point in making this speculation? -- * From the disk of: |****** NOTE NEW ADDRESSES ******| We're only immortal Jim Shaffer, Jr. |* uunet!snark!vanth!jms *| for a limited time. 37 Brook Street |**jms%vanth@snark.thyrsus.com***| Montgomery, PA 17752 | 72750.2335@compuserve.com | (Rush, "Dreamline") Path: ns-mx!uunet!cbmvax!amix!vanth!jms From: jms@vanth.UUCP (Jim Shaffer) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy Subject: Re: FILE: OH Krill part 4 (Conclusion) Message-ID: Date: 12 Aug 91 20:10:09 GMT References: <1991Aug8.055411.24453@bilver.uucp> Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence Lines: 11 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:1705 alt.conspiracy:6581 Although the Searle device bears a resemblance to other free-energy devices, particularly those of Bruce DePalma (though Searle's is *much* more powerful), a British alternative-technology researcher who recently tracked down Mr. Searle found that he could produce neither the device nor any first-hand witnesses to its operation. -- * From the disk of: |****** NOTE NEW ADDRESSES ******| We're only immortal Jim Shaffer, Jr. |* uunet!snark!vanth!jms *| for a limited time. 37 Brook Street |**jms%vanth@snark.thyrsus.com***| Montgomery, PA 17752 | 72750.2335@compuserve.com | (Rush, "Dreamline") Path: ns-mx!uunet!cbmvax!amix!vanth!jms From: jms@vanth.UUCP (Jim Shaffer) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy Subject: Re: FILE: OH Krill part 3 Message-ID: Date: 12 Aug 91 20:13:18 GMT References: <1991Aug8.055219.24384@bilver.uucp> Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence Lines: 8 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:1706 alt.conspiracy:6582 I forgot to mention on my first commentary that Sirius isn't located in Orion, but I hope you all knew that. -- * From the disk of: |****** NOTE NEW ADDRESSES ******| We're only immortal Jim Shaffer, Jr. |* uunet!snark!vanth!jms *| for a limited time. 37 Brook Street |**jms%vanth@snark.thyrsus.com***| Montgomery, PA 17752 | 72750.2335@compuserve.com | (Rush, "Dreamline") Path: ns-mx!uunet!cbmvax!amix!vanth!jms From: jms@vanth.UUCP (Jim Shaffer) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy Subject: Re: Web of Conspiracy intro/README Message-ID: Date: 13 Aug 91 03:39:19 GMT Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence Lines: 11 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:1707 alt.conspiracy:6583 Thanks for posting that. I hadn't heard of it before. Although I dislike channeled information, and the "underground base" theories, it will no doubt prove interesting reading. I'm sure I'll have comments on it as I did on the Krill files, but since I haven't read it before I'll need time to think it over. -- * From the disk of: |****** NOTE NEW ADDRESSES ******| We're only immortal Jim Shaffer, Jr. |* uunet!snark!vanth!jms *| for a limited time. 37 Brook Street |**jms%vanth@snark.thyrsus.com***| Montgomery, PA 17752 | 72750.2335@compuserve.com | (Rush, "Dreamline") Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!asuvax!noao!rutgers!aramis.rutgers.edu!porthos.rutgers.edu!mcgrew From: mcgrew@porthos.rutgers.edu (Charles Mcgrew) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Roswell Message-ID: Date: 13 Aug 91 04:22:13 GMT References: <1991Aug9.154724.20033@linus.mitre.org> Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J. Lines: 28 But if you tell me the Earth is being visited by beings from another world, I'm going to require good proof before I'll believe that beause it is very remarkable, and the consequences of believing it if it's untrue are large... ...But for me, I'm going to withhold my belief until I see some evidence other than anecdotes and wishful thinking. ... no offense, M14494 (your name didn't make it on the article), but the testimony of witnesses is admissible. Clearly, the testimony of a *single* witness is shaky, but the testimony of many witnesses - who at least appear not to be connected with one another - must at least be listened to, not discarded out-of-hand. (Indeed, in criminal cases, a witness is often *required*.) BTW, wasn't the Carl Sagan you quoted the same one who dusted off his nuclear-winter theory, substituted "oil fires" for "a-bomb fires", and went on national TV to peddle it again this spring? I guess this warm summer is all in our imaginations.... I think *nothing* happened at Roswell. ... curious; even the government says something happened at Roswell -- though they say it was a weather baloon. (I guess you haven't held the weather balloon in your hand either, so I suppose you don't even believe that! :-) Charles Path: ns-mx!uunet!wupost!usc!apple!portal!cup.portal.com!sgraziano From: sgraziano@cup.portal.com (Steve - Graziano) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Movie "Communion" Message-ID: <45560@cup.portal.com> Date: 13 Aug 91 06:59:46 GMT References: <91220.010659JKC3@psuvm.psu.edu> Distribution: usa Organization: The Portal System (TM) Lines: 33 I saw the movie like a year ago when it came out, and IMHO, it didn't live up to the book...(But isn't it always that way?) What was the major cause of this disappointment was that it felt more like a Horror/Suspense flick than a documentary. I came into the theatre expecting to see an intelligent documentary/story. I was shocked when they used the cliched 'creature cam' effect and what topped it off is they first used this when the kid entered his room while it was dark and said something to the effect of "Dad, I feel something strange here"...HES A KID! ITS A DARK ROOM! OF COURSE YOUR GONNA BE FREAKED! I always felt something was going to pop out and grab me from the dark. It's a kid thing. Anyway, the rest of the movie I thought was fine until they turned it into a horror movie at the haloween (sp?) scene. Yes it was creepy at most points that Strieber hallucinated at certain points in his life about the aliens. That was fine and believable. What took away from that believability is the scene where the praying mantis popped out of the box...How convenient that a creature you so rarely see (if ever) during haloween as a monster pop up and scare the living daylights out of Strieber. The argument that it is just a movie does not stand since this is supposedly a true story... These are my opinions, and if you want to flame me, fine. As long as its an valid point, I don't mind being corrected, in fact I welcome any constructive critisicm... /****************************************************************************\ Steve Graziano > Ayumma yumma.... sgraziano@cup.portal.com >you can say it too! \****************************************************************************/ Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!unix.cis.pitt.edu!gvlf3.gvl.unisys.com!tredysvr!cellar!revpk From: revpk@cellar.UUCP (Brian 'Rev P-K' Siano) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal Subject: Re: Answer to how life got started on Earth. Message-ID: Date: 13 Aug 91 04:31:17 GMT References: Sender: bbs@cellar.UUCP (The Cellar BBS) Organization: The Cellar BBS and public access system Lines: 27 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:1710 sci.skeptic:13716 alt.paranormal:2466 aro@cs.aber.ac.uk (Andy Ormsby) writes: > In article <1991Aug10.084637.6647@latcs1.lat.oz.au> stephens@ipc1.lat.oz.au ( > > > But you can disprove evolution by > > presenting evidence that contradicts the theory. Many potential examples o > > such evidence have been presented over the decades, and to my knowledge > > there still remains some of these cases which cannot be accounted for by > > evolutionists (I am willing to present these if the need arises). > > OK. Disprove evolution. > > Andy Ormsby, aro@cs.aber.ac.uk This should be interesting-- will Philip cite classic Creationist examples that really _confirm_ Evolutionary theory? Will he point to anomalous examples and claim that these are the death knell for natural selection? Will he point to an unresolved question and claim that, because it's unresolved, it's unresolvable? And what alternative will he propose in its place? """""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" Brian Siano, Delaware Valley Skeptics Rev. Philosopher-King of The First Church of the Divine Otis Redding revpk@Cellar.UUCP "Ecrasez l'enfame!" - Voltaire """""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!bernie!gaudi!nic.csu.net!usc!cs.utexas.edu!bcm!rice!uw-beaver!milton!sumax!polari!rwing!eskimo!alpinist From: alpinist@eskimo.celestial.com (David Butler) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal Subject: Re: Answer to how life got started on Earth. Message-ID: <1112@eskimo.celestial.com> Date: 11 Aug 91 22:40:13 GMT References: <1991Aug6.120038.17853@ujocs.joensuu.fi> <1991Aug7.152430.17799@hobbes.kzoo.edu> <1991Aug10.084637.6647@latcs1.lat.oz.au> Reply-To: alpinist@eskimo (David Butler) Organization: =>ESKIMO NORTH (206) 367-3837 SEATTLE, WA.<= Lines: 38 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:1711 sci.skeptic:13718 alt.paranormal:2467 In article <1991Aug10.084637.6647@latcs1.lat.oz.au> stephens@ipc1.lat.oz.au (Philip J Stephens) writes: >Looking at the similarities >between skeletal structure is not enough; you must also compare the soft >biology of the species, or better still obtain an accurate picture of their >DNA. > It goes without saying that the task of unequivocally proving evolution, >like any other theory, is not possible. This is a handy argument. Make the definition of proof so hard that you can say that evolution cannot be proved thus it doesn't exist. I suppose that nothing short of living samples of every species that has ever lived so that you can definitely show a biological chain back to single celled organisms is enough to convince a skeptic of evolution. Too bad the fossil record (which isn't bad) is the best we can do. >But you can disprove evolution by >presenting evidence that contradicts the theory. Many potential examples of >such evidence have been presented over the decades, and to my knowledge >there still remains some of these cases which cannot be accounted for by >evolutionists (I am willing to present these if the need arises). I would very much like to see this evidence. I have followed some of the debates on the net and read some creationist literature and have yet to see EVEN ONE example of proof against evolution. Though, I have heard more than once that such proof exists. (Gaps in the fossil record is not proof - or even a very good argument) > The theory of evolution is not airtight, and the problem areas are by no >means trivial. To suggest otherwise is paramount to ignorance. I agree. But so far there is not one other explanation that makes any sense or fits any of the data. -- **************************************************************************** * Dave * The Alpinist * * alpinist@eskimo.celestial.com * DARE to be stoopid! * **************************************************************************** Path: ns-mx!uunet!munnari.oz.au!ariel!ucsvc.ucs.unimelb.edu.au!luga!latcs1!ipc1.lat.oz.au!stephens From: stephens@ipc1.lat.oz.au (Philip J Stephens) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Answer to how life got started on Earth. Keywords: Pseudo-scientific Christian Right Message-ID: <1991Aug13.065629.8537@latcs1.lat.oz.au> Date: 13 Aug 91 06:56:29 GMT References: <1991Aug10.084637.6647@latcs1.lat.oz.au> <35766@shamash.cdc.com> Sender: news@latcs1.lat.oz.au Organization: Comp Sci, La Trobe Uni, Australia Lines: 28 Nntp-Posting-Host: ipc1.lat.oz.au John Douglas writes: >If indeed Philip has *proof* of his theories, I would >appreciate quantitive proof of the existemce of >*Creationism* and we can evaluate that. What usually happens >is some vague attack on a minor point they extract from their >reading of evolution. Aiiieee. Why does everyone assume that I am a Creationist? I'm not assuming that the anti-evolution arguments I've heard about are actually correct disproofs of the theory. Unfortunately my first article does make it sound like I do, mainly because my emotions got the better of me at that point. Ah well. I'm beginning to feel that it's a waste of time attempting to bring up points raised in anti-evolution books; presumably you've got responses to the all, even though I haven't seen them all yet. If I'm just going to get the standard attitude "it's been done" without any actual elaboration, then I might as well not bother using the network as a means to gain answers. Of course, there is one simple way of evaluating evolution once and for all. Give me a very detailed mathematical model, I'll implement it as a computer program, and we'll see how good it is at generating life-forms. <\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/><\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\> < Philip J. Stephens >< "Many views yield the truth." > < Hons. student, Computer Science >< "Therefore, be not alone." > < La Trobe University, Melbourne >< - Prime Song of the viggies, from > < AUSTRALIA >< THE ENGIMA SCORE by Sheri S Tepper > Path: ns-mx!uunet!cadence!jdm From: jdm@cadence.com (Joe Mastroianni) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Question on significant dates Message-ID: <1991Aug13.164205.11614@cadence.com> Date: 13 Aug 91 16:42:05 GMT References: <1991Aug5.155345.9075@cadence.com> <1991Aug5.190220.16288@auc.trw.com> <9934@awdprime.UUCP> Organization: Cadence Design Systems, Inc. Lines: 108 In article <9934@awdprime.UUCP> craigb@awdprime.austin.ibm.com writes: >In article <1991Aug6.142130.3540@cadence.com>, jdm@cadence.com (Joe >Mastroianni) writes: >> In article <1991Aug5.190220.16288@auc.trw.com> etuggle@dora.UUCP >(Eddie Tuggle) writes: >> >Is Whitley Strieber generaly considered to be an athority, reliable? >I have read Communion >> >and found it quite interesting. >... >> I wouldn't personally consider Mr. Strieber to be an authority. He is >> simply the highest paid. Im not sure what "reliable" means. If it >> means, "should we believe what he says", then , certainly not. >... >> Joe > >Personally, I've taken everything Strieber says or writes with a largish >grain of salt ever since I saw him interviewed CBS Nightwatch. He was >plugging one of his books (might have been _Communion_) and talking about >how his editor ran into a couple of the "little people" checking out his >latest volume in a New York City bookstore. Gimme a break! > >Craig I dont know what to make of the "Editor runs into aliens at the bookstore" story. Strieber mentions it in Transformation. A follow-on book by a friend of Strieber also recounts that story in more detail through an interview with that editor. The editor also says that he came home one day to find the manuscript for "Communion" scattered all around his bedroom. Truly weird stuff. If any of this is true Im packing my bags and moving to Tibet. I think one of the big problems with all of these stories is that they are all extremely outlandish. These are not stories that jive with "normal" life. People tell you they have bad dreams. Under hypnosis they tell you more details about the bad dreams. So? Does hypnosis validate the dream as real? What is real? If you were there would you have seen the same weird event, or, would you just see somebody dreaming? Belief in any of this stuff requires an attitude shift that some of us are more willing to make than others. The all-too-willing are gullible. They will be tricked by any ruse designed by man or beast. PT Barnum made a good living off these people. The not-willing are closed-minded bigots. They would rather nothing exist that dosent fit into their pre-constructed model of the universe. They are inflexible. These people start wars and always get beaten. The in-between people are adaptable. They are skeptics. They are open-minded. They are not ready to give up their internal models of reality without a fight, but will yield to thorough explanation and "proof". Some of these people will be tricked by hoax-ters. Some will remain skeptical. Some will become believers -- but only after a lot of pain. I think many of the abductees fall into the last category. They are unwilling to say what has happened to them for fear of rebuke. The are afraid of the incidents because they cant reconcile the weirdness in their life with watching Johnny Carson and buying doughnuts from the grocery store. If you believe the abduction event happens to people, it seems easy to believe the casual abductee would assume he/she was hallucinating. How many times have you heard people say, "It was like a dream...everything moved in slow motion, I saw the oncoming car and steered away at the last minute..." Really bad things become hallucinations. War veterans know this. Victims of violent crimes know this. Ask your Dad, or your uncle, or your brother who has been in combat. Ask anyone who has ever said, "It was like a bad dream" and meant it. Hallucinations are not acceptable to us. We dont tell people in business meetings we are having hallucinations. You'd better shut up about having hallucinations before you get sent to Bellevue in a straight jacket. We dont walk into a room full of people we dont know and say, "Hi, Im Bob and Im having weird dreams about little orange people putting needles into my brain how are you?" Hallucinations about aliens raping you and making you see visions of the whole world dying are acceptable in one place only. Here. Here in the company of this narrow group of weirdos who speculate that something in this strangeness means something. If you dont want to believe you are losing your ability to reason, you hang out with these people. Some of them are truly gullible and are here because they believe in mutant hamsters who steal human souls. Some are here because they want to see the gullible people fry in chicken fat. Some are here because they have a genuine desire to not lose the comfort of standard human existance. I think Whitley Strieber has explained, to the best of his ability as a writer, how he is going to keep a grip on his life. He may be going over the "edge". He may be buying his own story a little too much. If anything, his struggle to maintain a grip on his sanity is interesting. To cast him as a spokesman for anyone who claims to have an abduction experience is wrong. I have never seen him do this on TV or in his books. Like I said, he is lucky to be able to make a really great living off of his mental health exercizes. I really dont think he speaks for anyone but himself. You can speak for you. Strieber speaks for Strieber. I speak for me. Joe -- Joe Mastroianni AKA: AA6YD AA6YD @ N6LDL.#NOCAL.CA.USA.NA Cadence Design Systems Santa Clara Ca. "Up the airy mountain;down the rushy glen; we jdm@cadence.com daren't go a hunting; for fear of little men " Path: ns-mx!uunet!cadence!jdm From: jdm@cadence.com (Joe Mastroianni) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: needles, implants, tissue samples Message-ID: <1991Aug13.170451.15552@cadence.com> Date: 13 Aug 91 17:04:51 GMT References: <9851@awdprime.UUCP> Organization: Cadence Design Systems, Inc. Lines: 33 In article jms@vanth.UUCP (Jim Shaffer) writes: >In article <9851@awdprime.UUCP> craigb@woofer.austin.ibm.com (Craig Becker) writes: >>I'm familiar with abductee claims about having needles stuck into their >>brain and/or having small BB-like implants; what I'm curious about is >>has anyone who claims to have gone through this submitted to a CAT scan >>or exploratory surgery to verify this? Or has any abductee ever died and >>had a thorough autopsy done? Would be interested in the findings. > >Whitley Strieber has had some sort of scan done and some sort of objects >appeared on it. I don't know if any abductees have died yet, but it would >be extremely interesting to check for implants when they do. (Unless the >aliens dematerialize them or something.) I haven't heard about any >exploratory surgery either. Some sources (Cooper et. al.) say that the >implants are located such that it would be extremely difficult to get to >them. > >-- > * From the disk of: | jms@vanth.uucp | "Let's become > Jim Shaffer, Jr. | amix.commodore.com!vanth!jms | alive again." > 37 Brook Street | uunet!cbmvax!amix!vanth!jms | > Montgomery, PA 17752 | 72750.2335@compuserve.com | --Yes I wonder how many people there are in the world who have had one of these encounter experiences? Joe -- Joe Mastroianni AKA: AA6YD AA6YD @ N6LDL.#NOCAL.CA.USA.NA Cadence Design Systems Santa Clara Ca. "Up the airy mountain;down the rushy glen; we jdm@cadence.com daren't go a hunting; for fear of little men " Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!samsung!munnari.oz.au!ariel!ucsvc.ucs.unimelb.edu.au!luga!latcs1!stephens From: stephens@latcs1.lat.oz.au (Philip J Stephens) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal Subject: Re: Answer to how life got started on Earth. Message-ID: <1991Aug13.153440.19861@latcs1.lat.oz.au> Date: 13 Aug 91 15:34:40 GMT References: Organization: Comp Sci, La Trobe Uni, Australia Lines: 53 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:1715 sci.skeptic:13723 alt.paranormal:2476 Brian 'Rev P-K' Siano writes: > This should be interesting-- will Philip cite classic Creationist >examples that really _confirm_ Evolutionary theory? Will he point to >anomalous examples and claim that these are the death knell for natural >selection? Will he point to an unresolved question and claim that, because >it's unresolved, it's unresolvable? And what alternative will he propose in >its place? Hello Brian, we've tended to run headlong into each other on various topics, haven't we? If you have been keeping abreast with talk.origin you will learn that I have fallen prey to the age old problem of misinformation. Seems that you can't trust every author to provide an accurate set of facts, and being a layman on the subject of evolution I was wooed over by an argument that doesn't stand up to close scrutity. That's ok, we all learn from our mistakes. Not that I'm suddenly a convert to the theory of evolution, but I think I'll stick to arguments that I feel comfortable with. I find it odd that everyone is trying to label me as a Creationist, since I don't believe I even used a Creationist argument. Never mind, labels mean nothing to me anyhow. You want to know what my *personal* position is on evolution? Shame on your Brian, surely you can guess. Have you forgotten all the lovely arguments we were having in regards to consciousness a few months back? Like every other scientific theory in this world of ours, Evolution makes the assumption that consciousness is a physical phenomena. I have already made my thoughts clear on what I think about that matter. I may not be qualified to put forward knowledgable arguments against evolution, but I can sure as hell put up a fight when it comes to discussing consciousness. So far nobody has managed to knock down the possibility that consciousness is a non-physical phenomena, and I see no reason to presume that random mutations + natural selection is the best explanation for how life arose on the earth. This is *not* a Creationist viewpoint, because I do not believe in the Christian God. And despite what you might believe, I do not like to skip over facts that are clearly well verified. I accept Quantum Mechanics because it has never failed to this day, to name one obvious example. The only reason why I've hestitated with evolution is because I'm waiting for scientists to present a model that can be verified through some sort of mathematical/computer simulation. Likewise for models of the brain. Of course, with my views on consciousness I tend to think that models for both evolution and the brain will ultimately fail through simulation. But the truth of the matter won't be known for a few years yet (probably not for another decade or so). <\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/><\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\> < Philip J. Stephens >< "Many views yield the truth." > < Hons. student, Computer Science >< "Therefore, be not alone." > < La Trobe University, Melbourne >< - Prime Song of the viggies, from > < AUSTRALIA >< THE ENGIMA SCORE by Sheri S Tepper > Path: ns-mx!uunet!pmafire!reiser From: reiser@pmafire.inel.gov (Steve Reiser) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal Subject: Move this topic --> Re: Answer to how life got started on Earth. Message-ID: <1991Aug13.181820.19527@pmafire.inel.gov> Date: 13 Aug 91 18:18:20 GMT References: <1991Aug13.153440.19861@latcs1.lat.oz.au> Organization: Winco Process Development, Idaho Lines: 11 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:1716 sci.skeptic:13724 alt.paranormal:2477 Please delete future discussion from ALT.PARANORMAL and add: TALK.ORIGINS <----- newsgroup to discuss evolution vs. creation, etc. -- Steve Reiser (reiser@pmafire.inel.gov or !uunet!pmafire!reiser) Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!bronze!anachem From: anachem@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu (mark s gilstrap) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: MCORBIN address Message-ID: <1991Aug13.215012.26860@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu> Date: 13 Aug 91 21:50:12 GMT Organization: Indiana University, Bloomington Lines: 13 Sorry to post this here. I acan't get a reply to MCORBIN via the SMTP path that came attached to original message. I need an address that works. Thanks Mark gilstrap@IUBACS.BITNET Path: ns-mx!uunet!wupost!micro-heart-of-gold.mit.edu!uw-beaver!ubc-cs!unixg.ubc.ca!mesmer.ucs.ubc.ca!westfall From: westfall@mesmer.ucs.ubc.ca Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal Subject: Re: Answer to how life got started on Earth. Message-ID: <1991Aug13.215118.25096@unixg.ubc.ca> Date: 13 Aug 91 21:51:18 GMT References: <1991Aug3.170949.19919@hobbes.kzoo.edu> <1991Aug6.120038.17853@ujocs.joensuu.fi> <1991Aug7.152430.17799@hobbes.kzoo.edu> <1991Aug10.084637.6647@latcs1.lat.oz.au> Sender: news@unixg.ubc.ca (Usenet News Maintenance) Reply-To: westfall@mesmer.ucs.ubc.ca Organization: University Computing Services Lines: 33 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:1718 sci.skeptic:13731 alt.paranormal:2481 Nntp-Posting-Host: mesmer.ucs.ubc.ca SIn article <1991Aug10.084637.6647@latcs1.lat.oz.au>, stephens@ipc1.lat.oz.au (Philip J Stephens) writes: |> Josh Vander Berg writes: |> |> >Strange, I am aware of many skeletons having been found which were definitely |> >non-human and non-ape, but primates...looking at one gap in the fossil record |> >does not disprove the large body of fossil evidence which shows human's |> >evolution from lower primates. |> |> But Josh, whilst there are gaps in the fossil record you cannot say |> uneqivocally that a species represented by an earlier fossil "evoluted" into |> a species represented by a later fossil. Looking at the similarities |> between skeletal structure is not enough; you must also compare the soft |> biology of the species, or better still obtain an accurate picture of their |> DNA. Then once you are reasonably convinced that the two species are part |> of an evolutionary path, you must fill in the transitionary forms by |> extrapolation and show that they are all viable. |> It goes without saying that the task of unequivocally proving evolution, |> like any other theory, is not possible. But you can disprove evolution by |> presenting evidence that contradicts the theory. Many potential examples of |> such evidence have been presented over the decades, and to my knowledge |> there still remains some of these cases which cannot be accounted for by |> evolutionists (I am willing to present these if the need arises). |> The theory of evolution is not airtight, and the problem areas are by no |> means trivial. To suggest otherwise is paramount to ignorance. |> |> <\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/><\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\> |> < Philip J. Stephens >< "Many views yield the truth." > |> < Hons. student, Computer Science >< "Therefore, be not alone." > |> < La Trobe University, Melbourne >< - Prime Song of the viggies, from > |> < AUSTRALIA >< THE ENGIMA SCORE by Sheri S Tepper > |> So let's hear it - what are some of these cases..... Path: ns-mx!uunet!convex!flosdorf From: flosdorf@convex.com (Stephen Flosdorf) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal Subject: Re: Answer to how life got started on Earth. Message-ID: <1991Aug13.232311.654@convex.com> Date: 13 Aug 91 23:23:11 GMT References: <1991Aug7.152430.17799@hobbes.kzoo.edu> <1779@ether.UUCP> <1991Aug12.172111.10543@convex.com> Sender: usenet@convex.com (news access account) Organization: CONVEX Computer Corporation, Richardson, Tx., USA Lines: 104 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:1719 sci.skeptic:13734 alt.paranormal:2483 Nntp-Posting-Host: starman.convex.com In article <1991Aug12.172111.10543@convex.com> swarren@convex.com (Steve Warren) writes: >In article <1779@ether.UUCP> kellym@ether.UUCP (Kelly M McArthur) writes: > > [... introductory statement deleted ...] > >>As I understand it, about 10,000 years ago, there were far fewer sorts >>of dogs running around. Mostly wolves and dingo sorts of things. There >>did not exist roving bands of vicisous Lhasa Apsos or Miniature Schnauzers >>taking down running antelope or attacking tribes of hunter-gatherers. >>Many breeds of dogs were "created" by man, through breeding for selected, >>although often very peculiar traits (see Dauschund). These dogs are not only >>highly evolved (unevolved?) from their anscestors, but this has taken place >>in startlingly few generations. If 10^3 years will turn a wolf into a >>poodle, imagine what can happen in 10^6 years? 10^8? Steve Warren answers: >No one seriously involved in this debate suggests that the mechanism of >natural selection does not exist. Your argument is a strawman. > >The breeding of dogs is nothing more than refining and seperating existing >genetic traits. No new species are created. By remixing all of the >domesticated dogs in the correct proportions you would obtain the same mongrel >wild dog that was the ancestor of all our domestic dogs of today. There has >not been any transformation here. This is nothing but a shifting around of >pre-existing sets of genes. > >This argument only demonstrates that selection among existing traits is >possible. No one denies this fact. > Well Steve, I thought I would respond to your posting even though we work in the same area. Just in case you are suggesting that no new species have ever been directly observed to arise, I thought that I would present a couple of examples. (I am not a *Biologist* and would love to see other examples of speciation that have been recently documented, expecially for animals. Any regular posters out there who can contribute?) 1) There are many experimentally documented cases of new species of plants arising through the process of allopolyploidy. This process can occur when two diploid species differ by some number of of chromosomal rearrangements. If their genome makeup is written as AA and BB, where A and B represent the structurally differentiated haploid sets, then an interspecific hybrid AB will encounter problems during meiosis, rendering it chromosomally sterile. All is not lost, however. Chromosome-number doubling is a process which occurs spontaneously in the somatic cells of plants. If this occurs in the AB hybrid, it can give rise to a tetraploid branch with reproductive flowers having a genomic makeup of AABB. Another possibility is for the diploid hybrid to produce unreduced diploid gametes. The combination of 2 unreduced diploid gametes yields a tetraploid zygote of AABB. The resulting allotetraploid is fertile, and has its own morphological, chemical and ecological properties different from either diploid parent species. Furthermore, the new allotetraploid is sterile with respect to even its closest diploid species. It therefore represents a new biological species which can continue to diverge further from its parental species. 2) A six year experiment was performed with Drosaphila melanogaster in which a base population multiplied and then was separated into 2 populations. These 2 separated populations were subjected to environments with different temperatures and humidity. At the end of the 6 years it was found that a significant amount of reproductive isolation had occurred between the 2 populations. The basis for the reproductive isolation was found to be both ethological(meaning that their courting/mating behaviors had changed as a result of chromosomal changes), and also cytoplasmic. Reproductive isolation is the basis for determining biological species. It is the link which connects micro-evolution to macro-evolution. Once the gene pool is split, the 2 populations are able to diverge to a much greater degree because no remixing of genes can occur. Mutations that occur in one population will not enter the gene pool of the other population. If the mutation is not harmful, then the frequency of the occurrence of the new gene can increase. This process, over longer periods of time explains the lack of *smooth* transitions between the different species observed today. *Does anybody else out there have some good examples of directly *observed speciation that they would like to share? I believe that *some examples have been posted in the past before I started reading *talk.o. Please post them if you have them... *I would appreciate it. Thanks. reference to 2) Kilias, G. and S. N. Alahiotis. 1982. Genetic studies on sexual isolation and hybrid sterility in long-term cage populations of Drosaphila melanogaster. Evolution 36:121-131. -Stephen Flosdorf Path: ns-mx!umaxc.weeg.uiowa.edu From: zharman@umaxc.weeg.uiowa.edu (Zachary Harman) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy Subject: ALIENS: THE BIG _LIE_ !!! Summary: Greys are genetic productions of man. Keywords: Conspiracy, Aliens, Dulce, Illuminati Message-ID: <7608@ns-mx.uiowa.edu> Date: 14 Aug 91 01:05:54 GMT Sender: news@ns-mx.uiowa.edu Followup-To: Web of Conspiracy Organization: U of Iowa, Iowa City, IA Lines: 64 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:1720 alt.conspiracy:6598 It's about time that the UFO community wakes up and realizes that the whole Aliens thing is a big LIE. It all goes like this (Listen up, you government agents!) ALIENS: THE BIG _LIE_ !!! ------------------------- After the war (WW II), Russia and England were the first to "dig around" in Germany for its secrets. Well, our good friends the British picked up Hitler's FOO-FIGHTER technology. YES, UFO's are man made. So, England built a special base up in Canada to test its new found technology. Well, they crash one of the FOO-FIGHTERS in Roswell, NW. Eisenhower went to Muroc Air Force Base (Now Edwards Air Force Base) and made a deal with the British , NOT THE ALIENS in 1952. The deal was Nazi FOO-FIGHTER technology for the H-Bomb plans. So, we see that UFO sightings over the US really pick up starting in 1952. Our own government has been flying these saucers around. THAT'S WHY THEY CRASH! Do you really think an alien would crash one of its own ships? GET REAL. Dulce, NM is our genetics lab. That is where we, NOT THE ALIENS have been "Creating" the Greys. So, we let these Greys pilot the ships. So they land and everybody, including Whitley Streiber thinks they are from Zeta Reticuli or some other bullshit place. Streiber was "min controlled" by our good old government, as bunches of other people have. This all leads up to the big finale..... Council for Foreign Relations/Illuminati They goverment is going to stage a mock "ALIEN INVASION" so that they can establish the NEW WORLD ORDER controlled by the Illuminati. Remember at Malta when Reagan told Gorbechov that if there was ever an alien invasion, the two countries would have to unite tro defeat it? WELL, IT'S COMING, BUT BY HUMANS AND NOT BY ANY STRANGE ALIENS FROM OUTER SPACE, EITHER. Sure, there are aliens but they are peaceful. Any race that is that advanced technologically is also advanced spiritually. There are no evil green lizards from outer space. Don't listen to what these misinformants are feeding you. It's all a bunch of lies. The truth is our government is using modified Nazi FOO-FIGHTER technology and is genetically creating the "Greys" in Dulce. THERE.....ARE.....NO.....ALIENS....... I Repeat... THERE.....ARE.....NO.....ALIENS....... It's time to get the truth out in the open. Get ready for something big really soon, folks. Just remember what I told you. IT'S THE GOVERNMENT.....NOT THE ALIENS... -Zachary Harman Path: ns-mx!uunet!wupost!m.cs.uiuc.edu!vela!dlcogswe From: dlcogswe@vela.acs.oakland.edu (Dan Cogswell) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal Subject: Re: Move this topic --> Re: Answer to how life got started on Earth. Message-ID: <8958@vela.acs.oakland.edu> Date: 14 Aug 91 01:48:22 GMT References: <1991Aug13.153440.19861@latcs1.lat.oz.au> <1991Aug13.181820.19527@pmafire.inel.gov> Organization: Oakland University, Rochester MI. Lines: 11 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:1721 sci.skeptic:13735 alt.paranormal:2485 reiser@pmafire.inel.gov (Steve Reiser) writes: >Please delete future discussion from ALT.PARANORMAL and add: >TALK.ORIGINS <----- newsgroup to discuss evolution vs. creation, etc. I agree! This is the wrong newsgroup(s) for this topic and it doesn't seem to be dieing. Move it. -- Dan Cogswell dlcogswe@vela.acs.oakland.edu Mostly H20 and whatever pizza and Diet Pepsi digest into Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!usc!apple!fernwood!portal!cup.portal.com!Don_A_Showen From: Don_A_Showen@cup.portal.com Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal,sci.skeptic Subject: Greeting Message-ID: <45587@cup.portal.com> Date: 14 Aug 91 02:04:08 GMT Organization: The Portal System (TM) Lines: 5 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:1722 alt.paranormal:2486 sci.skeptic:13737 I will not be permitted to post from my old account but will hope to return on this or another computer in less than 15 days. I'll leave you with this saying; Don't give up the ship. Standard Disclaimer. John. Path: ns-mx!uunet!munnari.oz.au!metro!cluster!swift!peg!mcollinson From: mcollinson@peg.UUCP Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: 2/3 Crop Circles or Hieroglyphics! Message-ID: <422800004@peg> Date: 13 Aug 91 12:52:00 GMT Lines: 93 Nf-ID: #N:peg:422800004:000:5077 Nf-From: peg.UUCP!mcollinson Aug 13 08:52:00 1991 /* Written 11:06 pm May 18, 1991 by nexus in peg:nexus.newtimes */ /* ---------- "2/3 Crop Circles or Hieroglyphics!" ---------- */ One of the most intriguing mysteries of the decade has to be the phenomena known as "crop circles". They are known as "crop circles" because the first reported cases, starting in 1976 in the UK, were literally that - circles of flattened corn, or other crops. Since 1976, both the number and complexity of these 'circles', has increased dramatically. No one knows exactly when the first 'circle' appeared, but we do know that since serious research first began in 1980, circles have literally popped up all over the place. For example, in 1987, 75 formations were discovered; 110 in 1988; 305 in 1989; and over 600 last year (1990). Not only that, but what were originally circles 'evolved' into complicated 'pictograms' as illustrated below. Listed below are some notes I made after sifting through masses of information now becoming available on the subject. I think the pictures of the "crop circles' however, speak for themselves. * The 'circles' range in size from 1 or 2m up to 70m in diameter. * they 'appear' most often during mid-summer and are most commonly found in southern England. Other circles have been found in the USSR, Italy, USA, Australia, Canada and Japan. Most however, are not as complex as those found in the UK last summer. * It has been discovered that the heaviest concentration of these 'circles' falls within the famous "Wessex Triangle", a well known area rich in mystical associations, containing ancient stone circles such as Avebury, Silbury Hill and Stonehenge. This area also has a history of abnormally high UFO sightings. * Several circles have been reported under high-voltage electricity wires, leading to much discussion of electromagnetic fields being the cause of the phenomena * Several "circles" have been found to be in a straight "line", observable only from the air. Many have speculated on the involvement of 'ley-lines' and changes in the Earth's magnetic fields. * Many people have seen "strange glowing lights" often orange in colour, and other UFO phenomena over fields prior to appearances of circles. Sometimes these sightings were days or weeks prior to an appearance of a 'circle'. INSIDE THE CIRCLES . . . There is a large amount of information emerging that deals with the "circles" themselves. I have listed below some of the effects of circles, as discussed by researchers. a) strange high frequency "twittering" sounds. These have been recorded and analysed but are unexplainable b) "jelly-like" substances have been recovered from several circles c) many researchers report feeling ill effects, such as headaches, nausea upon entering some circles. Dogs also are noticeably affected by the circles, with several illnesses reported. d) some dowsing society people report the 'dematerialising' and 'rematerialising' of certain objects, such as dowsing rods, wooden pegs etc. e) some researchers report "missing time" lapses during solo investigations f) there are many reports of blinding white "flashes" and what appear to be electro-static 'crackling noises". Many of these occurred on cloudless days with multiple witnesses present. g) analysis of plant samples taken from some circles shows dramatic molecular change has occurred. h) electro-magnetic effects have been experienced in many cases, and some quite dramatically. For example on Thursday, August 10, 1989 at 3.30pm when a BBC television crew were filming two researchers in a 100 foot diameter circle near Avebury, Wiltshire. The camera refused to function properly each time it entered the circle, and several smaller circles nearby. Even when elevated on a crane over the edge of the circles, it would not work. The crew tried holding the camera outside the circle while the sound engineer went inside. As the camera rolled, and sound began taping, a loud, shrill, warbling noise blasted into the sound engineer's headset. Upon leaving the circle the noise stopped etc. The noise was recorded and sent to the BBC sound experts for analysis. All the BBC experts were baffled by the strange sounds. The camera was found to be completely defunct and had to be rebuilt. The event was shown on the BBC's "Daytime Live" program. As the transmission went to air, the electric supply into the whole studio complex was momentarily lost, and all telephones ceased functioning. Despite many varied and determined efforts to solve this baffling puzzle, the mystery remains. No doubt time will tell! Written by Duncan Roads REFERENCES: "Crop Circles - The Latest Evidence" by Pat Delgado & Colin Andrews. (Publ Bloomsbury UK) "Crop Circles 1990" by Michael Chorost & Colin Andrews, Mufon UFO Journal #272, Dec 1990 "A Crop of Circles" by Derek Elsom, New Scientist. 29 July 1989 "More Circular Evidence" by Richard Beaumont. Kindred Spirit. Vol.1.,No.8 pp25-28. "Around and Around in Circles" from Time, Sept 18,1989. "Corn Circles" by John Haddington. Fountain International News, #27.1990. Path: ns-mx!uunet!iggy.GW.Vitalink.COM!widener!ukma!asuvax!anasaz!billy From: billy@anasaz.UUCP (Bill Moore) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: I'm part Apache... Message-ID: <4705@anasaz.UUCP> Date: 13 Aug 91 15:17:28 GMT References: <1063@cronos.metaphor.com> Reply-To: billy@anasaz.UUCP (Bill Moore) Distribution: usa Organization: Anasazi, Inc. Lines: 15 In article <1063@cronos.metaphor.com> eherrera@zinfandel.metaphor.com (Eric Herrera) writes: >....so when is that New Mexico field trip taking place??? I'm ready anytime. It looks like a 3-4 hour drive around the perimeter and we'd probably want at least one all night watch so its probably a weekend project. How about Labor Day? Obviously we need to get this thing done before football season starts because there are _some_ things more important than alien invasions. Seriously, I'm open. All we need is some group of people to agree on a time and place to meet. I'll co-ordinate. My E-mail is billy@anasaz.UUCP and my office phone is (602) 395-1732. --Bill-- Path: ns-mx!uunet!wang!news From: warren@worlds.com (Warren Burstein) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal,sci.skeptic Subject: Re: A Solar Tour Part #1 Message-ID: Date: 13 Aug 91 07:55:07 GMT References: <91212.162216JOHNFW@SLACVM.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> Sender: news@wang.com Organization: WorldWide Software Lines: 17 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:1725 alt.paranormal:2487 sci.skeptic:13742 JOHNFW@SLACVM.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU writes: >That's all the time it have, I'll leave you with this saying; A person >who is raped up in himself makes a very small package. A person raped (as oppossed to wrapped) up in himself must be exceedingly agile, no? Perhaps this refers to a way that lonely space travellers (who are built somewhat differently from humans) amuse themselves? Maybe it has something to do with the frequency of your vibrator? I'll leave you with this saying: "I'll leave you with this saying." -- /|/-\/-\ The entire world Jerusalem |__/__/_/ is a very strange carrot |warren@ But the farmer / worlds.COM is not worried at all. Path: ns-mx!uunet!wang!news From: warren@worlds.com (Warren Burstein) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal,sci.skeptic Subject: Re: Answers to questains. Message-ID: Date: 13 Aug 91 08:28:58 GMT References: <91218.074352JOHNFW@SLACVM.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> Sender: news@wang.com Organization: WorldWide Software Lines: 17 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:1726 alt.paranormal:2488 sci.skeptic:13743 JOHNFW@SLACVM.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU writes: > A space tape is an audio recording on a message from a > space person. Perhaps you mean a message on an audio recording? An audio recording concerning a message? Where are they made, and whose voice appears on them? And have you been smoking them after listening? What is our vibrational frequency in Hz, anyhow? I will leave you with this saying C-x C-c y RET -- /|/-\/-\ The entire world Jerusalem |__/__/_/ is a very strange carrot |warren@ But the farmer / worlds.COM is not worried at all. Path: ns-mx!uunet!cis.ohio-state.edu!ucbvax!bloom-beacon!eru!hagbard!sunic!kullmar!compuram!pgd From: pgd@compuram.bbt.se Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal Subject: Re: Answer to how life got started on Earth. Message-ID: <1991Aug12.153136.478@compuram.bbt.se> Date: 12 Aug 91 15:31:36 GMT References: <1779@ether.UUCP> <2772@anaxagoras.ils.nwu.edu> Lines: 29 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:1727 sci.skeptic:13744 alt.paranormal:2490 X-Comment-To: shafto@ils.nwu.edu In article <2772@anaxagoras.ils.nwu.edu> shafto@ils.nwu.edu (Eric Shafto) writes: >One final point: We turned a wolf into a toy poodle, and Bob >Bales still thinks there is a God. God would have struck us >dead in a minute for having done something like that. And >done the same for the poodle as an act of mercy. :-) You can breed dogs to a certain point, but after that point it is not possible to breed any more. It is like the breeding already had built-in limits. Breeding does not prove anything in general, and in particular not evolution. Even if you could cross-breed cats and dogs, it would still not prove evolution. It would only show that you could cross-breed cats and dogs, but it would say nothing about the origin of them. I just wonder why pro-evolutionists so fanatically is against some other explanation. What is wrong with considering other alternatives? Even a theory that humans did not evolve from monkeys, but monkeys from humans (this one is well within the evolution boundarylines) Isn't progress made by persons who allowed themselves not to be constrained by the current teachings, but dared to question it? Dared to think in other ways, and by that brought the human knowledge forward. -- -- Per Lindqvist Internet: pgd@compuram.bbt.se Fidonet: Per Lindqvist @ 2:201/332 Path: ns-mx!uunet!iggy.GW.Vitalink.COM!widener!dsinc!bagate!cbmvax!amix!vanth!jms From: jms@vanth.UUCP (Jim Shaffer) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy Subject: Re: FILE: OH Krill part 4 (Conclusion) Message-ID: Date: 13 Aug 91 04:13:44 GMT References: <1991Aug8.055411.24453@bilver.uucp> <1991Aug9.201944.5348@cadence.com> <19296@darkstar.ucsc.edu> Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence Lines: 25 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:1728 alt.conspiracy:6604 In article <19296@darkstar.ucsc.edu> beeboy@cats.ucsc.edu (Rev. D.P. Rubin) writes: > >Very intereesting reading there...does this have any connection with the >artifacts/ruins found on Mars (of which the 'face' is the most famous) or >with theories of life on Titan? The identity of the species who built the Martian monuments (assuming you believe that that's what they are) is a matter of who you talk to. I suspect everyone will integrate them into his or her pet theory. (Of course, there are those who seem to be trying to put everything together in one big theory...) I hadn't heard anything about life on Titan FROM A UFOLOGICAL VIEWPOINT, just as scientific speculation. Has someone actually brought that into the grand unification theory of Life, the Aliens, and Everything? >Whether it's true or not, it's fascinating! I agree. -- * From the disk of: |****** NOTE NEW ADDRESSES ******| We're only immortal Jim Shaffer, Jr. |* uunet!snark!vanth!jms *| for a limited time. 37 Brook Street |**jms%vanth@snark.thyrsus.com***| Montgomery, PA 17752 | 72750.2335@compuserve.com | (Rush, "Dreamline") Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!csn!scicom!paranet!p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG!Michael.Corbin From: Michael.Corbin@p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Michael Corbin) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Bentwaters Update Message-ID: <73717.28A87CBB@paranet.FIDONET.ORG> Date: 13 Aug 91 23:56:00 GMT Sender: ufgate@paranet.FIDONET.ORG (newsout1.26) Organization: FidoNet node 1:104/428.0 - ParaNet(sm) A, Arvada CO Lines: 41 * Forwarded from "ParaNet UFO Echo" * Originally from Jim Speiser * Originally dated 08-11-91 22:52 Mark your calendars for Sept. 18th: On that Wednesday evening at 8PM EDT, NBC will broadcast the season premier of "Unsolved Mysteries", which will include a splashy recreation of the Bentwaters Incident. As you may know, just after Christmas of 1980, several security police and officers attached to Bentwaters AFB in England saw a series of baffling UFOs that came very close to the ground, possibly leaving traces of radiation. A portion of one sighting was recorded by Lt. Col. Charles I. Halt, the deputy base commander, who wrote up the entire incident in an official memorandum. Halt will be among others featured on the broadcast, and will be speaking openly for the first time. Another witness, John Burroughs, will also be featured. Burroughs lay low for many years after the sighting, but came forward to me back in 1989. He has since spoken to several researchers, and together we are spearheading an effort to re-focus public attention to the case, which I feel ranks up with Roswell as one of our best contenders. There are some very compelling suggestions of high-level cover-up; there is at the very least a palpable shyness on the part of both governments (US and UK) to be forthright about information pertaining to the case. Burroughs has agreed to be interviewed for an exclusive ParaNet release, and is seeking the help of any reputable UFO group to bring this case to the attention of the public and ideally, the Congress. Incidentally, the special effects for the UM broadcast were done by Industrial Light & Magic. The recreation promises to be pretty spectacular. Jim Speiser Subscribe to ParaNet's list at infopara-request@scicom.alphacdc.com -- Michael Corbin - via FidoNet node 1:104/422 UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name INTERNET: Michael.Corbin@p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!csn!scicom!paranet!p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG!Michael.Corbin From: Michael.Corbin@p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Michael Corbin) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Project Majestic Question Message-ID: <73725.28A8BCB1@paranet.FIDONET.ORG> Date: 14 Aug 91 03:39:00 GMT Sender: ufgate@paranet.FIDONET.ORG (newsout1.26) Organization: FidoNet node 1:104/428.0 - ParaNet(sm) A, Arvada CO Lines: 31 > From: manfredi@ego.uh.cwru.edu > Date: 12 Aug 91 16:11:20 GMT > Organization: Image Analysis Center, Univ. Hospitals of Cleveland" > Message-ID: <1991Aug12.111120.1@ego.uh.cwru.edu> > Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors > FYI: Majestic, by Whitley Streiber, is an excellent *reference* > source on > ^^^^^^^^ > MJ-12. He wrote the book after interviewing many people > involved with/ > related to the project. I know that this will turn on the flame mode, but here goes: It is generally known throughout the UFO community that Strieber did not do any investigation on that book. He paid William L. Moore to use some of his research work on the subject. The problem with this is that Moore's work is extremely questionable as to validity since MJ-12 has never been proven to exist. Unfortunately, this makes Strieber's work non-original and tells us nothing new or more than Moore has been spewing about for quite sometime now. Just my two cents. Mike -- Michael Corbin - via FidoNet node 1:104/422 UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name INTERNET: Michael.Corbin@p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!csn!scicom!paranet!p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG!Michael.Corbin From: Michael.Corbin@p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Michael Corbin) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Strieber Message-ID: <73726.28A8BCB3@paranet.FIDONET.ORG> Date: 14 Aug 91 03:50:00 GMT Sender: ufgate@paranet.FIDONET.ORG (newsout1.26) Organization: FidoNet node 1:104/428.0 - ParaNet(sm) A, Arvada CO Lines: 72 > From: csuxr@warwick.ac.uk (Andrew Shires) > Date: 11 Aug 91 21:39:44 GMT > Organization: Computing Services, Warwick University, UK > Message-ID: > Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors > I must agree with this -- having only read his two non-fiction (by his > own > accounts, at least) books it seems to me that he does not make any > claims to > know what it is all about. I don't claim to speak from a position of > authority about Streiber, but the books have impressed me like no > others, and > they are the work of an extraordinarily clever man if they are entirely > made > up. Well at least we know why and how Strieber got to be a well-known science fiction writer. He has a way of taking something fictional and making it seem real. > At least in my experience of UFO literature (not inconsiderable, but not > especially great), Streiber started something new. If anything, I would > say that Streiber seems to have established a new thoughtfulness in UFO > literature, and even if he is `making it all up' that contribution has > to be a > good thing. Please elaborate. How could taking people who are suffering from Post Traumatic Stress Disorder, allegedly being abducted by so-called aliens, and capitalizing on this experience be "a good thing"? > Please tell us why we are being led on, Mike! First of all, the abduction phenomenon is very complex. It is not as simple as most people think, nor is it pleasant. The literature is full of people who are unable to deal with whatever experience they feel that they have. This whole subject has been reduced to a level of commercialism, thanks to Whitley, and as a result of it, the real victims go unassisted to deal with their emotional problems. No one knows what the abduction phenomenon represents. Even if someone appears to know, the truth is that no one does. This problem, unknown to most people preoccupied with science fiction accounts of this nature, has a potential for being extremely serious and should get professional treatment. It is truly unfortunate that Whitley has polluted the real world with his writings, holding them out to be a true experience. All this has served to do is to further hamper the work of serious researchers having to deal with what appears to be a fad. It is next to impossible to determine how many people have experienced an alleged abduction since there are so many people who seem to like the attention that they get by claiming abduction, ala Whitley. There is absolutely nothing wrong with an author writing about science fiction, but to hold it out as true and to mislead people into thinking that it may be benevolent is foolish. Mike > > Andrew > > > >Dan Cogswell dlcogswe@vela.acs.oakland.edu > >Mostly H20 and whatever pizza and Diet Pepsi digest into > > --- ConfMail V4.00 > * Origin: Paranet(sm) - The world's leading UFO Investigative News > Network (1:30163/150) -- Michael Corbin - via FidoNet node 1:104/422 UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name INTERNET: Michael.Corbin@p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!csn!scicom!paranet!p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG!Michael.Corbin From: Michael.Corbin@p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Michael Corbin) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Strieber Message-ID: <73727.28A8BCB6@paranet.FIDONET.ORG> Date: 14 Aug 91 04:03:00 GMT Sender: ufgate@paranet.FIDONET.ORG (newsout1.26) Organization: FidoNet node 1:104/428.0 - ParaNet(sm) A, Arvada CO Lines: 77 > From: dlcogswe@vela.acs.oakland.edu (Dan Cogswell) > Date: 12 Aug 91 11:39:00 GMT > Organization: Oakland University, Rochester MI. > Message-ID: <8911@vela.acs.oakland.edu> > Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors > Sorry about that. I stand corrected. Thanks for checking this out. > So what? He's spoken of his experiences with Wiccan (?) religious > organizations in one of his books. I don't see a New Age influence in > his UFO writings other than that. You can be involved in occult and > still be rational about being abducted. Perhaps. However, this is not the issue. I was just tossing this in as an aside. > Again, give me an example of his missdealings with abduction victims. I > find it hard to believe that many people out there know more about > what's going on (and are willing to share it). Certainly, he's not a > doctor, but most doctors have never been abducted. I'd like to see an > instance where he's over-stepped his bounds of authority. That is my point. He is not a doctor as most of the so-called abduction investigators are not. These people are weekend "hypnotherapists" attempting to force the victim to fit a memory of something into their perception of reality. However, these memories do not belong in reality since they are completely misunderstood by any of our standards. It would seem more beneficial to treat the problem professionally and attempt to work through the experience under the supervision of qualified people. An abuction club is not the way to deal with this. It is like the blind leading the blind since the victims are as stressed as they were when they started. > Oh, come on! You sitting here telling me he has fabricated his whole > story without giving me one lick of proof is *much* worse than the story > he's > presented: at least he's made significant attempts to substantiate > things. He's taken lie detector tests, given dates and places, given > information on how to contact him, etc. I still don't see an instance > where he's tried to deceive people. The burden of proof is on him. He has produced nothing more than a fantastic story about something that happened to him. Lie detector tests tell nothing. They are virtually worthless since someone can tell a lie unknown to them. You are beginning to prove my point with Strieber as with a lot of the abductees. I should clarify that I believe that something may have happened to Whitley, but he does not even know. Thus, he cannot call himself an expert and self-styled support group leader. The deception has come about with things that are public knowledge. For example, the allegations that came from Budd Hopkins about his involvement with one of Budd's abuctee clients. It is no secret that Strieber has been very controversial among a lot of people. His latest move to dump the abductee support group only further proves that he was not as committed to the truth and finding the answers as he previously claimed. As a result, he has left a lot of his followers high and dry. > Does anybody know more than anyone else? I'd say you're equally in the > dark about this as he is (no offense :-). I don't think you're going to > be succesful portraying Strieber as a blood-sucking cult leader. Up to > this point, I see his work as an honest attempt to explain what is > happening to him and others. I've seen no evidence to the contrary and > *you don't present any*. To scoff at him and call him a phoney without > backing it up with something other than opinion is far worse than > anything he's done. I never portrayed him to be a "blood-sucking cult leader." I merely point out that there are a good number of problems with his background to make him an authority on the subject of abductions. Mike -- Michael Corbin - via FidoNet node 1:104/422 UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name INTERNET: Michael.Corbin@p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG Path: ns-mx!uunet!mcsun!news.funet.fi!cc.tut.fi!js From: js@ee.tut.fi (Salmela Jarmo) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal Subject: Re: Answer to how life got started on Earth. Message-ID: <1991Aug13.124955.27639@cc.tut.fi> Date: 13 Aug 91 12:49:55 GMT References: <1991Jul12.205856.26896@bony1.bony.com> <1991Aug3.170949.19919@hobbes.kzoo.edu> <1991Aug6.120038.17853@ujocs.joensuu.fi> Sender: news@cc.tut.fi (USENET News System) Organization: Tampere University of Technology Lines: 20 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:1733 sci.skeptic:13746 alt.paranormal:2493 The Watchtower society produces their standard pro-creationism stuff... if you have not heard it before you might found it quite funny... otherwise, just skip. asiivo@ujocs.joensuu.fi (Antti Siivonen) writes: > The reason why the missing links are so hard to find is that there are > no such links at all. > Andreas Naturally, that was the tought about one hundred years ago... the links have been found... Antti, tell us *how* you calculated the day-of-doom date (it was 1914 + some years... but actually it was not the year 1975 accoring to the Watchtower society, as it used to be.) Antti is very good in producing random number read from Bible... - jarmo salmela Path: ns-mx!uunet!bu.edu!bu-bio!colby From: colby@bu-bio.bu.edu (Chris Colby) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal Subject: Re: Answer to how life got started on Earth. Message-ID: <87824@bu.edu> Date: 14 Aug 91 15:31:23 GMT References: <1779@ether.UUCP> <2772@anaxagoras.ils.nwu.edu> <1991Aug12.153136.478@compuram.bbt.se> Sender: news@bu.edu Reply-To: colby@bu-bio.UUCP (Chris Colby) Followup-To: talk.origins Organization: Biology Dept., Bost Lines: 60 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:1734 sci.skeptic:13750 alt.paranormal:2495 In article <1991Aug12.153136.478@compuram.bbt.se> pgd@compuram.bbt.se writes: >You can breed dogs to a certain point, but after that point it is not >possible to breed any more. It is like the breeding already had >built-in limits. Breeding for a specific trait (for example weight gain in pigs) reduces the genetic variation present so breeders do indeed run into a "wall" where no further change is possible. If the breeders were patient enough to wait for mutation and recombination to replenish the variation, they could go right on breeding. This, however, would take hundreds of thousands to millions of years. Humans beings are not that patient, evolution is. >Breeding does not prove anything in general, and in particular not >evolution. Breeding demonstrates that gene frequencies can be changed via selection. Selection is one of the major mechanisms of evolution. >Even if you could cross-breed cats and dogs, it would still not prove >evolution. Who said it would? >I just wonder why pro-evolutionists so fanatically is against some >other explanation. What is wrong with considering other alternatives? Evolutionists have no problems considering other alternatives, in fact the theory is substantially changed from when Darwin first proposed natural selection as an explanation of it. Details of the theory are constantly being tweeked to fit new data. Evolutionists do not want to junk a powerful explanatory theory like evolution for speculation, however. >Even a theory that humans did not evolve from monkeys, but monkeys >from humans (this one is well within the evolution boundarylines) Wrong, _niether_ is an alternative. Humans did not evolve from monkeys, or vice versa. Humans and monkeys share a common ancestor. Perhaps if you understood the bare basics of the theory you would understand why evolutionists are so adamant about defending it from creationism. >Isn't progress made by persons who allowed themselves not to be >constrained by the current teachings, but dared to question it? Dared >to think in other ways, and by that brought the human knowledge forward. Very definately. Name one time when loopy speculation from pure ignorance resulted in progress. There is a vast difference between not being constrained by current teachings, and not knowing a single thing about current teachings. >-- Per Lindqvist >Internet: pgd@compuram.bbt.se Fidonet: Per Lindqvist @ 2:201/332 Chris Colby --- email: colby@bu-bio.bu.edu --- "'My boy,' he said, 'you are descended from a long line of determined, resourceful, microscopic tadpoles--champions every one.'" --Kurt Vonnegut from "Galapagos" Path: ns-mx!uunet!mcsun!ukc!dcl-cs!gdt!aber!aberda!aro From: aro@cs.aber.ac.uk (Andy Ormsby) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal Subject: Re: Answer to how life got started on Earth. Message-ID: Date: 14 Aug 91 13:02:43 GMT References: <1991Aug13.153440.19861@latcs1.lat.oz.au> Sender: news@aber.ac.uk (USENET news service) Reply-To: aro@cs.aber.ac.uk (Andrew Ormsby) Organization: Computer Science Dept. University College of Wales, Aberystwyth Lines: 37 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:1735 sci.skeptic:13751 alt.paranormal:2496 In-Reply-To: stephens@latcs1.lat.oz.au's message of 13 Aug 91 15: 34:40 GMT Nntp-Posting-Host: zeus In article <1991Aug13.153440.19861@latcs1.lat.oz.au> stephens@latcs1.lat.oz.au (Philip J Stephens) writes: > Like every other scientific theory in this world of ours, Evolution makes > the assumption that consciousness is a physical phenomena. I have already > made my thoughts clear on what I think about that matter. I fail to see the connection. You were asked to provide some good evidence discrediting evolution, having claimed there was plenty of this. You failed abjectly. You now produce a smokescreen about conciousness. Please explain why evolution requires conciousness to be a physical phenomenon. Once you've done this, I'd be interested in discovering what a "non-physical" phenomenon is. > I may not be qualified to put forward knowledgable arguments against > evolution, but I can sure as hell put up a fight when it comes to discussing > consciousness. So far nobody has managed to knock down the possibility that > consciousness is a non-physical phenomena, and I see no reason to presume > that random mutations + natural selection is the best explanation for how > life arose on the earth. If random mutations + natural selection is not the best explanation, please provide us with a better one with superior evidence and better explanatory power. If you (by your own admission) cannot come up with any decent argument against evolution, then why do you choose not to believe it? > This is *not* a Creationist viewpoint, because I do not believe in the > Christian God. Pah! Plenty of Christians believe in evolution, or so they say. Plenty of non-Christians believe "something" "created" the universe/earth/life/humans. Whether you are a Christian is irrelevant. Andy Ormsby, aro@cs.aber.ac.uk Path: ns-mx!uunet!mcsun!ukc!edcastle!helium!cam From: cam@aifh.ed.ac.uk (Chris Malcolm) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Answer to how life got started on Earth. Keywords: Pseudo-scientific Christian Right Message-ID: <1991Aug14.144502.8748@aifh.ed.ac.uk> Date: 14 Aug 91 14:45:02 GMT References: <1991Aug10.084637.6647@latcs1.lat.oz.au> <35766@shamash.cdc.com> <1991Aug13.065629.8537@latcs1.lat.oz.au> Reply-To: cam@aifh.ed.ac.uk (Chris Malcolm) Organization: Dept AI, Edinburgh University, Scotland Lines: 33 In article <1991Aug13.065629.8537@latcs1.lat.oz.au> stephens@ipc1.lat.oz.au (Philip J Stephens) writes: > I'm beginning to feel that it's a waste of time attempting to bring up >points raised in anti-evolution books; presumably you've got responses to >the all, even though I haven't seen them all yet. If I'm just going to >get the standard attitude "it's been done" without any actual elaboration, >then I might as well not bother using the network as a means to gain answers. Got it right at last!! Why are you bothering hundreds of computers and thousands of people asking questions which have been answered very specifically and carefully by experts, such as Gould and Dawkins, in widely available books which are currently in print, and which *many* posters have already referred you to? There are plenty of people on this net who *could* answer your questions; but they usually get *paid* a lot of money for answering queries from much better educated and motivated enquirers than you. The net is not a free information source, it's a complex and subtle information marketplace. Nobody will answer you unless they think it is worthwhile. So what is *your* contribution to the net? > Of course, there is one simple way of evaluating evolution once and for >all. Give me a very detailed mathematical model, I'll implement it as a >computer program, and we'll see how good it is at generating life-forms. Sigh! Dawkins has already tried this in prototype form, *and* written a popular book about it. It's also a hot research topic, if you can handle scientific papers. Go visit a bookstore or library and give us all a rest. You've already been given the references. -- Chris Malcolm cam@uk.ac.ed.aipna +44 (0)31 667 1011 x2550 Department of Artificial Intelligence, Edinburgh University 5 Forrest Hill, Edinburgh, EH1 2QL, UK DoD #205 Path: ns-mx!uunet!convex!swarren From: swarren@convex.com (Steve Warren) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal Subject: Re: Answer to how life got started on Earth. Message-ID: <1991Aug14.162545.24599@convex.com> Date: 14 Aug 91 16:25:45 GMT References: <1779@ether.UUCP> <1991Aug12.172111.10543@convex.com> <1991Aug13.232311.654@convex.com> Sender: usenet@convex.com (news access account) Followup-To: sci.skeptic Organization: CONVEX Computer Corporation, Richardson, Tx., USA Lines: 68 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:1737 sci.skeptic:13755 alt.paranormal:2498 Nntp-Posting-Host: neptune.convex.com In article <1991Aug13.232311.654@convex.com> flosdorf@convex.com (Stephen Flosdorf) writes: >In article <1991Aug12.172111.10543@convex.com> swarren@convex.com (Steve Warren) writes: >>In article <1779@ether.UUCP> kellym@ether.UUCP (Kelly M McArthur) writes: >> >> [... introductory statement deleted ...] >> >>>As I understand it, about 10,000 years ago, there were far fewer sorts >>>of dogs running around. Mostly wolves and dingo sorts of things. There [...details deleted...] >Steve Warren answers: > >>No one seriously involved in this debate suggests that the mechanism of >>natural selection does not exist. Your argument is a strawman. [...details deleted...] >Well Steve, I thought I would respond to your posting even though >we work in the same area. > >Just in case you are suggesting that no new species have ever >been directly observed to arise, I thought that I would present [...detailed examples of speciation deleted...] Well, you did a good job of quoting from your sources. It was unnecessary, however. Natural selection is a real mechanism that allows offshoots from the "mongrel" gene pool of a population to adapt to specific niches in their environment. These offshoots necessarily contain a restrictive subset of genetic material compared to the major population group they departed from. If, through mutation, they loose the ability to interbreed with the parent population, then this trip into adaptation has become a trap-door. As a result of the reduced set of genetic material, any defects have much more serious consequences in relation to the long-term survivability of the isolated population. An exaggerated example would be the cheetah. The vast majority of mutations are harmful rather than helpful. As mutations collect in a population with limited "helpful" genetic diversity (that is, the set of "known-good" genes - inherited from the parent population - in their accessible gene pool is significantly reduced), the chance that truly harmful mutations will begin to be expressed in ways that may threaten the continued survival of the "species" begins to increase rapidly. My contention is that the genetically diverse parent population remains static over time, but the offshoots come and go - and are not genetically diverse enough to form a new parent group. By spinning off niche-oriented child-populations, the parent group preserves its genetic material in many places simultaneously, sort of like a diversified stock portfolio. ;^) Mutations serve to degenerate the genetic strength of the population group that suffers from them, not to increase it. The very occasional helpful mutation is not sufficient to overcome the damage done by harmful mutations. And this last point is the place where the debate rages. Arguments about natural selection and speciation are a waste of time. I think that everyone recognizes that these mechanisms are real. Of course I don't expect you to buy my final point. I was just clarifying the issue, because the original poster seemed so proud of himself for proving that natural selection is real, -> therefore the debate is over. -- _. --Steve ._||__ Warren v\ *| V Path: ns-mx!uunet!wupost!m.cs.uiuc.edu!vela!dlcogswe From: dlcogswe@vela.acs.oakland.edu (Dan Cogswell) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Strieber Message-ID: <8969@vela.acs.oakland.edu> Date: 14 Aug 91 16:40:09 GMT References: <73726.28A8BCB3@paranet.FIDONET.ORG> Organization: Oakland University, Rochester MI. Lines: 24 Michael.Corbin@p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Michael Corbin) writes: >There is absolutely nothing wrong with an author >writing about science fiction, but to hold it out as true and to mislead >people into thinking that it may be benevolent is foolish. What is it that has you so convinced that he made the whole story up? I realize the burden of proof is on Whitley, but it seems to me he's done everything he can to prove that it really did happen and he's not lying. Please tell us which part indicates to you that this experience is not real. If it's not, then I agree with you. If it is real, then I see no problems with the man telling his story. >Mike > > >Dan Cogswell dlcogswe@vela.acs.oakland.edu > > >Mostly H20 and whatever pizza and Diet Pepsi digest into Why my name is quoted on this, I don't know. >-- >Michael Corbin - via FidoNet node 1:104/422 -- Dan Cogswell dlcogswe@vela.acs.oakland.edu Mostly H20 and whatever pizza and Diet Pepsi digest into Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!asuvax!noao!rutgers!aramis.rutgers.edu!porthos.rutgers.edu!mcgrew From: mcgrew@porthos.rutgers.edu (Charles Mcgrew) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: OH Krill facts?? Message-ID: Date: 14 Aug 91 16:14:28 GMT References: <1991Aug10.064459.2450@colorado.edu> <1991Aug12.004124.1934@odin.corp.sgi.com> Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J. Lines: 47 todd_born@msmail.corp.sgi.com writes: 1. devise a route (plan) that will allow you to research without beening detected. ...plainly impossible, as the authors intended. (crops).a. try locating all heavy eqiupment paperwork, owners, leasing?? ... since this stuff is (if you believe "Krill" (I've heard that "OH Krill" is actually a joke based on "PJ Klass", anybody else hear that?)) secret, the procurement documents would be themselves classified. (cities underground) b. utilize local county records for incoming gov. employees ... again, classified project. Any employees would have 'cover' employment that wouldn't jump out at you. d. next, trace most probable (4.0 nerds, Alternative groupies alien friendly, social misfits, the weak and lonely, the agressive and outgoing, blackmailed, or blackmailing) ... WRONG! Government employees (especially those with high-technical skills) generally are top-flight, and model citizens. High-security personell are generally checked out six ways from Sunday (ever seen the first, non-classified-employee applications for employment for the NSA or CIA?), then given security checks, etc. They are motivated, intelligent people. (Sorry, but there *are* smart people working in these agencies. If that doesn't fit your world-view, then that's probably exactly what they want.) Further, the government is perfectly willing to lie like hell about where people are and what they're doing. Its makes things very tough-- as the Krill authors are undoubtedly aware (gives 'em a certain license if their story can't be checked out.) That being said, I wish you good luck! You might also try to "reverse engineer" the document itself, to see where it drew its various threads -- knowing who first promulgated the story will tell you a lot about its veracity. Charles Path: ns-mx!uunet!cadence!jdm From: jdm@cadence.com (Joe Mastroianni) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: One more thought on Strieber Message-ID: <1991Aug14.162012.731@cadence.com> Date: 14 Aug 91 16:20:12 GMT References: <9851@awdprime.UUCP> <1991Aug13.170451.15552@cadence.com> Organization: Cadence Design Systems, Inc. Lines: 47 This has occurred to me as well. If Strieber wasn't a professional writer, would he be more credible as a close encounter participant? As a writer telling a strange story, we dont bother to question his motives. He obviously writes for a living. He obviously intended to make money by writing a book about his encounter experience. If he didnt intend to make money from his book, he wouldn't have bothered to accept the millions he made from it. Making money was the motive for the book "Communion". No one is going to convince me otherwise. On the other hand, is "Communion" a true story? Whether Strieber believes his story is true or not is completely orthogonal to his motive. We know he writes for a living. So, if he writes fiction or if he writes a "true" story, the outcome is the same for him. The "truth" of "Communion" is not effected by his motive. You may argue that he will make more money by stating the book is "true". But, I bet the delta in dollars would not be that great. There is a market for books of "true" stories about aliens who stick BBs up peoples noses. There is a market for fiction books about aliens who stick BBs up peoples' noses. Saying "Communion" is true just changes the target audience. The main point is: Whitley Strieber is a writer. Writers write books about things. The existance of "Communion" on our grocery store bookshelf is not in question. It is not "unusual" that Whitley Strieber has written another book. If Strieber were a Computer Programmer, or a Stock Broker, or a Lawyer, we would question his motive for writing his book. We would say that he did it strictly for the money, and that his motivation to concoct a weird "true" story was simply to get the extra bucks for that Ferrari F40. There would be tremendous doubt about the veracity of the subject matter and the integrity of the author. A writer who tells you aliens are messing up his telephone is one thing. A lawyer who tells you that aliens are taking tissue samples from his thigh is a danger to society. From whom are you more likely to accept a weird story -- a writer/artist, or your gynecologist? Just a thought. Joe -- Joe Mastroianni AKA: AA6YD AA6YD @ N6LDL.#NOCAL.CA.USA.NA Cadence Design Systems Santa Clara Ca. "Up the airy mountain;down the rushy glen; we jdm@cadence.com daren't go a hunting; for fear of little men " Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!news.iastate.edu!sharkey!tygra!dave From: dave@tygra.Michigan.COM (David Conrad) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal,sci.skeptic Subject: Re: Gnones and things. Message-ID: <1991Aug14.121440.10666@tygra.Michigan.COM> Date: 14 Aug 91 12:14:40 GMT References: <91219.073242JOHNFW@SLACVM.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> Organization: CAT-TALK Conferencing System, Detroit, MI Lines: 30 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:1741 alt.paranormal:2501 sci.skeptic:13757 In article <91219.073242JOHNFW@SLACVM.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> JOHNFW@SLACVM.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU writes: >... please let me tell your about a incident >that was talked about among people who believe in Flying Saucers. >Quite a few years back there was a earth person who was given a >ride aboard a scout craft and was then taken to a mother ship. He >started talking to the space person in English and remarked that he >was surprised that the space person could talk in his language. The >SP then told him that they had been observing the earth for many >thousands of year and they had been written up in many of our holy >book. He also stated that they were the pillar of cloud by day and >pillar of fire by night that went with the children of Israel, they >opened the Red Sea and knock down the walls of Jericho. Then the aliens dropped the humans off and had a good laugh. "Can you believe those primitives bought that line of shit. Ha!" > That's all for now I'll leave you with this this thought; A person who >does't stand for something, will fall for anything. >Standard Disclaimer. >John. Illiterate as usual, John. Keep it comin', it's hilarious. You might want to add rec.humor to the newsgroups line. David R. Conrad, dave@michigan.com -- = CAT-TALK Conferencing Network, Computer Conferencing and File Archive = - 1-313-343-0800, 300/1200/2400/9600 baud, 8/N/1. New users use 'new' - = as a login id. AVAILABLE VIA PC-PURSUIT!!! (City code "MIDET") = E-MAIL Address: dave@Michigan.COM Path: ns-mx!uunet!wupost!usc!apple!uuwest!max From: max@darkside.com (Max Pandaemonium) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy Subject: Re: FILE: OH Krill part 2 Message-ID: Date: 14 Aug 91 20:14:46 GMT References: Organization: The Dark Side of the Moon +1 408 245 SPAM Lines: 34 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:1742 alt.conspiracy:6612 jms@vanth.UUCP (Jim Shaffer) writes: > There was a report in the newspaper last week about attempts to produce a > high-temperature superconductor by doping buckminsterfullerene, a carbon > molecule which looks like a soccer ball -- hexagons and pentagons. "Matthew J. Rosseinsky and his colleagues at AT&T Bell Laboratories in Murray Hill, NJ, made a thin film of buckyball-rubidium and found it conducted electricity with no resistance at 28 kelvins. This broke a record set at the same lab in April, when researchers made a buckyball-potassium superconductor that worked at 18 kelvins (_Science News_: 4/20/981, p. 244). While tehse materials do not work at as high a temperature as ceramic superconductors, they do function at temperatures much higher than expected, Rosseinsky's group reports in the May 27 _Physical Review Letters._ "In the may 24 _Science,_ Karoly Holczer and co-workers at the University of Cailfornia, Los Angeles, describe making fully superconducting samples of potassium-doped buckyballs and producing rubidium-based superconductors that work at 30 kelvins. . . . "Taken together, the recent studies indicate that adding relatively large metal atoms, such as cesium, should result in higher superconducting temperatures. So far, no one has reported getting the cesium-fullerene combination to work, although many are trying." _Science News,_ Vol. 139, No. 23 In summary: fullerene combinations can make superconductors, but they aren't at anywhere near room temperatures presently. Newspapers and the general media tend to confuse scientific findings considerably . . . ----- Max Pandaemonium _ | _ Coming soon: PARADIGM, to be located on the future max@darkside.com _>|<_ site of the beautiful San Andreas Canyon. San Jose, CA | "Omnia quia sunt, lumina sunt." Fnord. Path: ns-mx!uunet!midway!msuinfo!eecae.ee.msu.edu!grimm From: grimm@eecae.ee.msu.edu (Jerry Michael Grimm) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Bentwaters Update Message-ID: <1991Aug14.222608.11842@msuinfo.cl.msu.edu> Date: 14 Aug 91 22:26:08 GMT References: <73717.28A87CBB@paranet.FIDONET.ORG> Sender: news@msuinfo.cl.msu.edu Organization: Michigan State University Lines: 10 Michael.Corbin@p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Michael Corbin) writes: >Incidentally, the special effects for the UM broadcast were done by >Industrial Light & Magic. The recreation promises to be pretty >spectacular. With Lucasfilm's ILM, the re-creation should be more spectactular than the original ;-). Mike Grimm Path: ns-mx!uunet!mcsun!ukc!warwick!csuxr From: csuxr@warwick.ac.uk (Andrew Shires) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Strieber Message-ID: <~RV}C3{@warwick.ac.uk> Date: 15 Aug 91 01:49:03 GMT References: <73727.28A8BCB6@paranet.FIDONET.ORG> Sender: news@warwick.ac.uk (Network news) Organization: Computing Services, Warwick University, UK Lines: 42 Nntp-Posting-Host: lily First, I realise you have gone on to explain a little more in this post than you had in your previous post, so I hope I haven't given you too hard a time just now. In article <73727.28A8BCB6@paranet.FIDONET.ORG> Michael.Corbin@p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Michael Corbin) writes: [about treating abductees when you're a `weekend hypnotherapist'] > An abuction club is not the way to deal with this. Agreed. Do abductees have any success in getting treatment from the everyday psychological specialist? >It is like the blind leading the blind since the victims are as stressed >as they were when they started. Fair enough, but isn't the `support group' then something that has to be questioned throughout society? Surely people get something out of just knowing they are not alone in their experiences? >The burden of proof is on him. Of course it is, but that's really no grounds for rejection of his story. The scientific status of hypnotic regression and subsequent questioning is undoubtedly shaky. I would agree that Streiber may have done harm in giving this sort of thing a positive image in his work. It certainly makes for an exciting story, of course. (Maybe I'm beginning to agree with you!) >The deception has come about with things that are public knowledge. For >example, the allegations that came from Budd Hopkins about his >involvement with one of Budd's abuctee clients. Could you expound on this, please? >His latest move to dump the abductee support group only further proves that >he was not as committed to the truth and finding the answers as he previously >claimed. As a result, he has left a lot of his followers high and dry. In what way has he dumped them? Has he removed financial support, or what? >Mike Andrew Path: ns-mx!uunet!mcsun!ukc!warwick!csuxr From: csuxr@warwick.ac.uk (Andrew Shires) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Strieber Message-ID: Date: 15 Aug 91 01:29:09 GMT References: <73726.28A8BCB3@paranet.FIDONET.ORG> Sender: news@warwick.ac.uk (Network news) Organization: Computing Services, Warwick University, UK Lines: 95 Nntp-Posting-Host: lily Michael.Corbin@p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Michael Corbin) writes: > >Well at least we know why and how Strieber got to be a well-known science >fiction writer. He has a way of taking something fictional and making it >seem real. You have to confess that he does not hide from this in the books. Of course, he may be contriving the `what-I-write-about-seems-now-to-reflect-my- experiences-but-I-didn't-know-that-when-I-was-writing-it' line. > > At least in my experience of UFO literature (not inconsiderable, but not > > especially great), Streiber started something new. If anything, I would > > say that Streiber seems to have established a new thoughtfulness in UFO > > literature, and even if he is `making it all up' that contribution has > > to be a good thing. >Please elaborate. How could taking people who are suffering from Post >Traumatic Stress Disorder, allegedly being abducted by so-called aliens, and >capitalizing on this experience be "a good thing"? You haven't really reacted to quite what I meant there. I should elaborate. I have no knowledge of the extent to which he has exploited `fellow' abduction-claimants. This is an entirely different point, and if indeed what you are saying is the case, I would condemn Streiber absolutely for this (then again, it would not necessarily invalidate his own claims). But as I have said, I am not speaking from a position of great authority as regards the man, and I can't claim to know what he has been doing in the real world. My point is that he is sensible (or perhaps businesslike, from your perspective) enough to draw no definite conclusions from his claimed experiences. This is a much more commendable attitude than is often taken, with people rushing to conclusions as to the origin of what they have encountered. When I read `Transformation' it was the first time I had seen a sensible treatment of the UFO phenomenon as part of a cultural tradition (fairies, goblins etc, now UFOs and aliens given our obsession with technology). (Von Daniken excluded, because I don't find it sensible.) The strength of those books, for me, was that they had a personal perspective. Do think that the abduction phenomenon would be as recognised if it hadn't had an articulate `spokesman' like Streiber? (This is not a rhetorical question with a veiled assertion -- I don't claim to have an answer and am wondering what you think?) >First of all, the abduction phenomenon is very complex. It is not as simple >as most people think, nor is it pleasant. The literature is full of people >who are unable to deal with whatever experience they feel that they have. I have got this impression too... >This whole subject has been reduced to a level of commercialism, thanks to >Whitley, and as a result of it, the real victims go unassisted to deal with >their emotional problems. Why has it become a commercial issue? And why should that stop real victims being helped? Surely that would only come if Streiber came out and said he was lying? >No one knows what the abduction phenomenon >represents. Even if someone appears to know, the truth is that no one does. >This problem, unknown to most people preoccupied with science fiction >accounts of this nature, has a potential for being extremely serious and >should get professional treatment. It is truly unfortunate that Whitley >has polluted the real world with his writings, holding them out to be a >true experience. Everything you say is true regarding the seriousness of the problem. I get the impression you don't think Dan and I have a grip on that. You clearly don't trust Streiber's writings, but you still don't say _why_ you know he is lying. >There is absolutely nothing wrong with an author writing about science >fiction, but to hold it out as true and to mislead people into thinking that >it may be benevolent is foolish. > >Mike Fair point, but why should we now be convinced that he is making it up? You still have not presented even casual evidence that Streiber is a liar. It is in all our interests to establish why it is so. If you have information, but for some reason cannot expose it, then please tell us, and I'm sure we'll respect that. But at the moment, all you have told us is that Whitley is a Bad Boy, without giving any real explanation. Abuse, neglect, or whatever, of other `abductees' is one thing; his having lied about it all is another. I see a lot of circumstantial, suspicious signs, such as his being an author of science fiction and horror stories, but he attempts to account for it in the only way he reasonably could, and I'm prepared to accept that. Finally, (I am a gullible soul perhaps :-) what he says at times seems too fantastic to have been made up by someone who wanted to be taken seriously so he could rake in the cash. Perhaps this is where I fall for his game. What do you think? >Michael Corbin - via FidoNet node 1:104/422 Andrew Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!samsung!uunet!cbmvax!amix!vanth!jms From: jms@vanth.UUCP (Jim Shaffer) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Hanger 19 and Roswell incident Message-ID: Date: 14 Aug 91 04:36:19 GMT References: <1991Jul25.142225.32301@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu> Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence Lines: 15 In article steve@ram.prpa.philips.com (Steven J. Kudlak) writes: > >Speaking of weird things. Has anyone gone to Dulce or Lindreth(sp?) >New Mexico to look for the putative secret UFO bases under those >Mesas? Did anyone find anything interesting? A guy named T. S. Bennett went to Dulce, but I don't know if he found anything. Dr. Bennewitz says it got trashed by the Delta Force two years ago anyway :-) -- * From the disk of: |****** NOTE NEW ADDRESSES ******| We're only immortal Jim Shaffer, Jr. |* uunet!snark!vanth!jms *| for a limited time. 37 Brook Street |**jms%vanth@snark.thyrsus.com***| Montgomery, PA 17752 | 72750.2335@compuserve.com | (Rush, "Dreamline") Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!samsung!uunet!cbmvax!amix!vanth!jms From: jms@vanth.UUCP (Jim Shaffer) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Hello? Hello-o! Message-ID: Date: 14 Aug 91 04:39:44 GMT References: <1052@cronos.metaphor.com> Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence Lines: 16 In article <1052@cronos.metaphor.com> eherrera@zinfandel.metaphor.com (Eric Herrera) writes: >I humbly ask that some one post a *short* list of the "must reads" on this >subject. I've posted this request a couple of times and haven't received >a response; e-mail or post. I'm not avoiding you, I've just got a stupendous time delay in getting news, and it's beyond my control. (I'm working on changing newsfeeds though...) I did send a reply to your e-mail tonight. Mail isn't delayed, just news. -- * From the disk of: |****** NOTE NEW ADDRESSES ******| We're only immortal Jim Shaffer, Jr. |* uunet!snark!vanth!jms *| for a limited time. 37 Brook Street |**jms%vanth@snark.thyrsus.com***| Montgomery, PA 17752 | 72750.2335@compuserve.com | (Rush, "Dreamline") Path: ns-mx!uunet!fernwood!cronos!zinfandel!eherrera From: eherrera@zinfandel.metaphor.com (Eric Herrera) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: ALIENS: THE BIG _LIE_ !!! Summary: Why? Keywords: Conspiracy, Aliens, Dulce, Illuminati Message-ID: <1094@cronos.metaphor.com> Date: 15 Aug 91 07:59:35 GMT References: <7608@ns-mx.uiowa.edu> Sender: news@cronos.metaphor.com Organization: Metaphor Computer Systems, Mountain View, CA Lines: 28 I edited out some of Zachary's post. My question is, "Why?" Why would the govt. produce the greys? To pilot experimental spacecraft? Don't we have capable military test pilots and NASA people who do this for a living? I really can't see a "test tube grey man" having superior flying/piloting skills to those guys (but I'm not a geneticist, either). Also, that doesn't explain the cattle mutilations and BB probes up folks' noses. I don't see the govt. finding a need for steer pituitaries and deciding that cloned humanoids are the way to go. I suppose the govt. *might* have some reason to stick BBs in people's brains via nose-pokers, but once again, why the "artificial greys?" Zachary's post brings up a point that has been puzzling me, however. Perhaps one of you Biology-philes can set me straight. Presuming the greys are truly ETs (or EBEs, or whatever is polically correct), is there some rule that says intelligent life *must* develop into a human- like form? (2 arms, 2 eyes, etc.) And oxygen-breathing to boot? Why can't our ETs be ammonia-absorbing jellyfish, or non-corporeal even? Does this make sense to anybody? Thank you, good-night, and pleasant dreams... -- ...................................................................... ___ : Eric P. Herrera : My opinions only... (__ ' . : Metaphor Computer Systems : Don't blame Metaphor / ,_ , _ : Mountain View, CA :....................... (___)/ (_/(_(_, : eherrera@zinfandel.metaphor.com ...................................................................... Path: ns-mx!uunet!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!sdd.hp.com!hplabs!hpfcso!hpgrla!kelvinf From: kelvinf@hpgrla.gr.hp.com (Kelvin Fedrick) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Yo! Needles/Communion & Shit Message-ID: <15230004@hpgrla.gr.hp.com> Date: 14 Aug 91 20:58:52 GMT References: Organization: Hewlett-Packard, Greeley, CO Lines: 7 In alt.alien.visitors, cs49+@andrew.cmu.edu (Christopher J. Shields) writes: >Bud Hopkins was quoted as saying in the issue of Omni >that it would be virtually impossible to remove the 2mm implant that >Strieber claims to have. Without permanently damaging or killing Strieber to get it at least :-) Path: ns-mx!uunet!stanford.edu!rutgers!netnews.upenn.edu!slack.med.upenn.edu!rescorla From: rescorla@slack.med.upenn.edu (Rescorla) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal Subject: Re: Answer to how life got started on Earth. Message-ID: <48337@netnews.upenn.edu> Date: 15 Aug 91 14:44:34 GMT References: <1779@ether.UUCP> <2772@anaxagoras.ils.nwu.edu> <1991Aug12.153136.478@compuram.bbt.se> Sender: news@netnews.upenn.edu Followup-To: alt.alien.visitors Organization: The Temples of Syrinx Lines: 31 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:1751 sci.skeptic:13771 alt.paranormal:2506 Nntp-Posting-Host: slack.med.upenn.edu In article <1991Aug12.153136.478@compuram.bbt.se> pgd@compuram.bbt.se writes: ]In article <2772@anaxagoras.ils.nwu.edu> shafto@ils.nwu.edu (Eric Shafto) writes: ]You can breed dogs to a certain point, but after that point it is not ]possible to breed any more. It is like the breeding already had ]built-in limits. I'm not sure this is true. Evidence? ]Breeding does not prove anything in general, and in particular not ]evolution. No, but it proves that evolution is theoretically possible. ]I just wonder why pro-evolutionists so fanatically is against some ]other explanation. What is wrong with considering other alternatives? ]Even a theory that humans did not evolve from monkeys, but monkeys Humans did not evolve from monkeys. ]from humans (this one is well within the evolution boundarylines) This would conflict with the fossil record--just as much as the idea that humans evolved from monkeys does. ]Isn't progress made by persons who allowed themselves not to be ]constrained by the current teachings, but dared to question it? Dared Not in face of the EVIDENCE. -Ekr -- ______________________________________________________________________________ Eric Rescorla rescorla@slack.med.upenn.edu "No his mind is not for rent;to any God or government"-Peart/Dubois Path: ns-mx!uunet!cadence!jdm From: jdm@cadence.com (Joe Mastroianni) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: ALIENS: THE BIG _LIE_ !!! Keywords: Conspiracy, Aliens, Dulce, Illuminati Message-ID: <1991Aug15.133759.3673@cadence.com> Date: 15 Aug 91 13:37:59 GMT References: <7608@ns-mx.uiowa.edu> Sender: Joe Mastroianni Organization: Cadence Design Systems, Inc. Lines: 31 In article <7608@ns-mx.uiowa.edu> zharman@umaxc.weeg.uiowa.edu (Zachary Harman) writes: >It's about time that the UFO community wakes up and realizes that the >whole Aliens thing is a big LIE. > >It all goes like this (Listen up, you government agents!) > > >ALIENS: THE BIG _LIE_ !!! >------------------------- This is the story line for one of my favorite installments of "The Outer Limits". Robert Culp is turned into an "alien" by some biologists/scientists/ geneticists. The purpose of this is to stage an alien invasion. When the governments of the world are confronted by this alien, the world will galvanize into a new order against the common threat. Only, his space ship crashes and he chickens out at the list minute. He sloggs back to the lab where he was converted to an alien and dies unceremoniously on the floor. Great show. How come they dont make them like that anymore? Joe -- Joe Mastroianni AKA: AA6YD AA6YD @ N6LDL.#NOCAL.CA.USA.NA Cadence Design Systems Santa Clara Ca. "Up the airy mountain;down the rushy glen; we jdm@cadence.com daren't go a hunting; for fear of little men " Path: ns-mx!uunet!vicorp!mc From: mc@vicorp.com (Mark Charalambous) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Web n' Krill Message-ID: <1991Aug15.152108.7686@vicorp.com> Date: 15 Aug 91 15:21:08 GMT Reply-To: mc@vicorp.UUCP (Mark Charalambous) Organization: V. I. Corporation, Amherst, Massachusetts Lines: 25 Some thoughts after carefully reading "Web" and "O.H. Krill": Either: 1. At least some of this is partially true; consequently WE ARE IN DEEP DOO-DOO. - or - 2. There must now be many government disinformation specialists pounding the pavement looking for work, as having executed their task of discrediting UFOology *so well*, they have effectively removed the need for their services. The resulting confusion and paranoia within the UFO 'cult' community is now sufficient to ensure that the subject will never get serious consideration from society at large. ...I tend to think (2) is closer to the truth. Mark -- #################### All relevant disclaimers apply ##################### Mark Charalambous mc@vicorp.com VI Corporation uunet!vicorp!mc (413) 586-4144 Path: ns-mx!uunet!pmafire!reiser From: reiser@pmafire.inel.gov (Steve Reiser) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal Subject: Re: MOVE THIS TOPIC --> Re: Answer to how life got started on Earth. Message-ID: <1991Aug15.145358.26200@pmafire.inel.gov> Date: 15 Aug 91 14:53:58 GMT References: <1991Aug13.153440.19861@latcs1.lat.oz.au> <1991Aug13.181820.19527@pmafire.inel.gov> <8958@vela.acs.oakland.edu> Organization: Winco Process Development, Idaho Lines: 16 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:1754 sci.skeptic:13772 alt.paranormal:2508 ERASE ALT.PARANORMAL FROM THE NEWSGROUP LINE BEFORE POSTING , PLEASE!!!! -- Steve Reiser (reiser@pmafire.inel.gov or !uunet!pmafire!reiser) Path: ns-mx!uunet!mcsun!ukc!icdoc!ibmassc!rob From: rob@aixssc.ibm.co.uk (Robert Trevelyan) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: UK Crop Circles on Bitmaps Message-ID: <1991Aug15.150059.34408@aixssc.ibm.co.uk> Date: 15 Aug 91 15:00:59 GMT Sender: rob@aixssc.ibm.co.uk (Robert Trevelyan) Organization: IBM AIX Systems Support Centre, UK. Lines: 191 Has anyone access to a image scanner. I would like to scan in images of Crop Circles to bitmap files for distribution across the net, by tacking onto the end of mail messages. I will be able to supply the photos if someone can scan them (sounds like a good way to see crop circles to me.) If anyone has this facility and does not mind doing the scanning I would appreciate hearing back. below is a bitmap representation of four of last years crop circles all from Winchester. To view you will need to "cut" where indicated and use a bitmap tool to view. Regards, Robert ---------------------cut here------------------------------------- #define circe_width 128 #define circe_height 128 #define circe_x_hot -1 #define circe_y_hot -1 static char circe_bits[] = { 0x00, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00, 0xf0, 0x7f, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00, 0xf0, 0x01, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00, 0x0e, 0x80, 0x03, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00, 0x0c, 0x06, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00, 0xc0, 0x01, 0x00, 0x1c, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00, 0x02, 0x08, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00, 0x20, 0xe0, 0x3f, 0x20, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00, 0x01, 0x10, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00, 0x18, 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0x40, 0x00, 0x01, 0x00, 0x00, 0xfe, 0x0f, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00, 0x40, 0x00, 0x01, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00, 0x80, 0xc1, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00, 0x3e, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00}; ------------------------------cut here--------------------------------- Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!usc!apple!uokmax!occrsh!fang!tarpit!bilver!dona From: dona@bilver.uucp (Don Allen) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy Subject: Re: FILE: OH Krill part 4 (Conclusion) Message-ID: <1991Aug13.014457.9608@bilver.uucp> Date: 13 Aug 91 01:44:57 GMT References: <1991Aug8.055411.24453@bilver.uucp> <1991Aug9.201944.5348@cadence.com> Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL Lines: 108 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:1756 alt.conspiracy:6620 In article <1991Aug9.201944.5348@cadence.com> jdm@cadence.com (Joe Mastroianni) writes: > > This is a wonderful story. This should be published in a much longer >book form with better character development. It is probably best read >on an airplane speeding across the pacific ocean on the way to some >exotic Asian destination. > > Seriously, though, I think you could get some money for this. There >was obviously a lot of work and research that went into it. You may >even want to try to make a screen or teleplay version. > > If it were well enought written, there could be a Hugo in it for you. > > Joe > Naw...now why would you think that :-) I would be *remiss* if I didn't include something here that I just spotted on the BBS echo called "Fido UFO" direct from Bill English. Bill knows John Lear directly...so I would say this is pretty much from the "horses mouth" -----Include message-------------------------------------------------- Message #8038 - UFO Date : 12-Aug-91 13:49 From : John Hicks To : Dali Moyzes Subject : Three Star General? Replies : #7808 <- > You can download the KRILL.ZIP from this bbs, which discuss the > abductions, but the best is the UFO!.ZIP ... (7245) Thu 21 Mar 91 10:55p By: Bill English To: All Re: Krill files St: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- During the past several weeks there have been a number of questions concerning the infamous "Krill Papers". At the advise of John Hicks (363/29) I am posting this information concerning the documents in question. 1) The "Krill Papers" were and are a fraud. John Lear and John Grace of Nevada authored these papers and uploaded them to a Paranet Board originally to see just how guliable the UFO investigative community really was. Much to the credit of Paranet and Mike Corbin, it was quickly determined that the documents were in fact fraudulent. As a result of this both John Lear and John Grace were barred from Paranet and several other UFO related Echos. While I don't agree with the methods employed by John, I do understand his reasoning for this. 2) In one respect the fraud perpetrated by John Lear and John Grace had the effect of proving that at least one so called researcher of of some renoun was in fact a fraud himself. I am of course refering to William Cooper. John was listening to Cooper give and interview to one of the local news media when he over heard Cooper state that while serving in the Navy he in fact viewed the Krill Papers. John approached and questioned Cooper about this knowing that the Krill Papers and the information in them was faked. Cooper stuck to his story and decided that John was his enemy. Especially after John pointed out to him that the Krill Papers were faked. As a result of this Cooper went on a rampage and did everything that he could to discredit Lear and several others. 3) For those of you just coming onto the UFO scene, it is imparitive that you understand that one of the many problems that are inherent to UFO research field is that information sometimes get spread out so quickly without proper disemination. As a result of this it becomes factual without basis. PLEASE...PLEASE...don't take everything you read on these databases as being the absolute truth without first checking with others and most importantly checking your sources...We all get burned from time to time...including myself as evidenced by the SS433 fiasco. But we are the ones who some day may be looked upon as the true heros of our time. At least I hope so..A lot of us have lost so much because of what we do here... Bill English --- FD 1.99c * Origin: Moderation? What's that? -*- Fidonet UFO Moderator (1:363/29) ------End of included message----------------------------------------------- Note: you can tell this is an _authentic_ message from Bill English by all his typos :-) :-) I'm going to be seeing Bill this upcoming weekend at a MUFON function,so I will have the opportunity to "grill" him more on this directly. I'm sure that Michael Corbin can recall when this infamous "Krill" file hit Paranet and how fast it was recognized as bogus. John Lear is _not_ known to be at all credible. And as for Bill Cooper...(heheh)...welll...that's another story altogether. Don -- -* Don Allen *- InterNet: dona@bilver.UUCP // Amiga..for the best of us. USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-) UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!vicstoy!dona 0110 0110 0110 Just say NO! Illuminati < MJ-12|Greys|TLC|CFR|FED|Bilderbergs > UN = "New World Order" Path: ns-mx!uunet!bonnie.concordia.ca!ccu.umanitoba.ca!herald.usask.ca!alberta!brazeau.ucs.ualberta.ca!unixg.ubc.ca!ubc-cs!mprgate.mpr.ca!mprgate.mpr.ca!spani From: spani@mprgate.mpr.ca (Leonard Spani) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Alien imagery in advertising Message-ID: <1991Aug15.203800.24289@mprgate.mpr.ca> Date: 15 Aug 91 20:38:00 GMT Sender: news@mprgate.mpr.ca Followup-To: alt.alien.visitors Organization: MPR Teltech Ltd., Burnaby, B.C., Canada Lines: 49 I think it was Don Allen who mentioned an increase in alien imagery in commercials lately. I had been noticing this myself, and a couple of commercials I've seen lately have really pressed the point. One was for a convenience market's "Wild Wheels" promotional campaign on TV. Something about drinking Coke and maybe winning wheeled transport (bicycles, roller skates, etc...) Anyway... They kept showing quick clips of a "bad sci-fi movie" UFO landed in the desert, and someone in a large-headed green alien costume. At the end they had the person in the alien costume being helped by a couple people to try and ride a bicycle. The other one that really caught my attention was for a Pearle Vision Optical store. The TV spot had an small rectangular optical store/lab(?) flying around a city at night with lights beaming out like something out of a Stephen Speilberg movie. The newspaper version of the ad is even more interesting. It has a graphic with 3 people gawking up at a floating, glowing optics lab complete with 25 or so beams of light shining from it. Above the UFO-lab was writen "THERE HERE!" So what does it all mean? 1. It is all part of a grand conspiricy to ease the public into accepting an alien presence on the earth in preparation for the upcoming government release of all UFO information currently kept secret (including 45 years of secret contact with aliens, recovered disks/corpses, the works!). Government propaganda agents have infiltrated corporations and are influencing their advertising for these purposes. :-) 2. Marketing weasels have noticed that UFOs are trendy again and are cashing in. I favour the second meaning. Has anyone else noticed this increase in alien imagery lately, or have I just been reading too many books about UFOs lately? Leonard Spani Path: ns-mx!uunet!bonnie.concordia.ca!ccu.umanitoba.ca!herald.usask.ca!alberta!brazeau.ucs.ualberta.ca!unixg.ubc.ca!ubc-cs!mprgate.mpr.ca!mprgate.mpr.ca!spani From: spani@mprgate.mpr.ca (Leonard Spani) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Web n' Krill Message-ID: <1991Aug16.002051.26521@mprgate.mpr.ca> Date: 16 Aug 91 00:20:51 GMT References: <1991Aug15.152108.7686@vicorp.com> Sender: news@mprgate.mpr.ca Followup-To: alt.alien.visitors Organization: MPR Teltech Ltd., Burnaby, B.C., Canada Lines: 48 In article <1991Aug15.152108.7686@vicorp.com>, mc@vicorp.com (Mark Charalambous) writes: |> Some thoughts after carefully reading "Web" and "O.H. Krill": |> |> Either: |> |> 1. At least some of this is partially true; consequently |> WE ARE IN DEEP DOO-DOO. |> |> - or - |> |> 2. There must now be many government disinformation specialists pounding |> the pavement looking for work, as having executed their task of |> discrediting UFOology *so well*, they have effectively removed the need |> for their services. |> The resulting confusion and paranoia within the UFO 'cult' community |> is now sufficient to ensure that the subject will never get serious |> consideration from society at large. |> |> ...I tend to think (2) is closer to the truth. |> |> Mark |> -- |> #################### All relevant disclaimers apply ##################### |> Mark Charalambous mc@vicorp.com |> VI Corporation uunet!vicorp!mc |> (413) 586-4144 I'd go for (2) as well... but In Don Allen's recent posting <1991Aug15.152108.7686@vicorp.com> "Re: FILE: OH Krill part 4 (Conclusion)" he included a statement by Bill English that said in part: |> 1) The "Krill Papers" were and are a fraud. John Lear and John Grace of Nevada |> authored these papers and uploaded them to a Paranet Board originally to see |> just how guliable the UFO investigative community really was. It would seem that you will have to update number 2 to include UFO 'researchers' and UFO 'cultists' spreading disinformation to discredit each other so that any attention (or $$) given by society doesn't have to be spread around as much. :^) Leonard. Path: ns-mx!uunet!wupost!m.cs.uiuc.edu!vela!dlcogswe From: dlcogswe@vela.acs.oakland.edu (Dan Cogswell) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy Subject: Re: FILE: OH Krill part 4 (Conclusion) Message-ID: <9015@vela.acs.oakland.edu> Date: 16 Aug 91 01:55:50 GMT References: <1991Aug8.055411.24453@bilver.uucp> <1991Aug9.201944.5348@cadence.com> <1991Aug13.014457.9608@bilver.uucp> Organization: Oakland University, Rochester MI. Lines: 13 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:1759 alt.conspiracy:6621 dona@bilver.uucp (Don Allen) writes: >And as for Bill Cooper...(heheh)...welll...that's another story altogether. Don, Can you speculate on Cooper's motives in presenting such wild information? Is it strictly money? I mean, some things he says are just simply ridiculous! >-* Don Allen *- InterNet: dona@bilver.UUCP // Amiga..for the best of us. -- Dan Cogswell dlcogswe@vela.acs.oakland.edu Mostly H20 and whatever pizza and Diet Pepsi digest into Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!usc!apple!portal!cup.portal.com!sgraziano From: sgraziano@cup.portal.com (Steve - Graziano) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: ALIENS: THE BIG _LIE_ !!! Message-ID: <45679@cup.portal.com> Date: 16 Aug 91 03:55:00 GMT References: <7608@ns-mx.uiowa.edu> <1094@cronos.metaphor.com> Distribution: usa Organization: The Portal System (TM) Lines: 31 To answer the question about why we are seeing aliens that look like us, I think it ultimately comes down to a psychological factor... People respond well to what they are familiar with, thats why we have cartoons of people with animal heads *Never the other way around :) * To take a recent example, take the movie, The Terminator. You had two robots, one a true machine (gears, servos, etc...) Another a liquid metal prototype... Funny how the machine is very human looking and the liquid metal terrors primary form is human...(Ok..Ok..not to freak out people to finish its mission but what about the last fight scene?) I am beginning to digress, so I will finish this example by stating that both machines are still "human" And so it goes with Alien beings... Since the fifties, we have had Molemen, Space Lizards, Big Brainy guys, and recently the small grey forms... Now I have something for all of you people to think about...Ready? here goes! Its funny how the greys have a similar look to the aliens of the movie CLOSE ENCOUNTERS OF THE THIRD KIND. Why have we not heard anything about greys prior to this movie? hmmm? Steve Graziano sgraziano@cup.portal.com (BLUES BROS! The ORIGINAL MOB's!) Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!unix.cis.pitt.edu!dsinc!bagate!cbmvax!amix!vanth!jms From: jms@vanth.UUCP (Jim Shaffer) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Oh Krill Message-ID: Date: 15 Aug 91 03:29:39 GMT References: <73598.28A5F407@paranet.FIDONET.ORG> Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence Lines: 18 In article <73598.28A5F407@paranet.FIDONET.ORG> Michael.Corbin@p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Michael Corbin) writes: > >"aliens-eating-humans-from-underground-bases-in-Dulce, NM" scenario. Again, >this is very similar to the stuff that was being fed to Bennewitz. Bennewitz >later took an extended vacation for a nervous breakdown to allow the paranoia >to wear off. Don Allen recently posted something from the Fido UFO echo indicating that Bennewitz was still involved with the Dulce scenario and was still saying much the same thing as he did before his breakdown. Do you know anything about this? I had previously assumed that he wasn't involved in UFOlogy any more. -- * From the disk of: |****** NOTE NEW ADDRESSES ******| We're only immortal Jim Shaffer, Jr. |* uunet!snark!vanth!jms *| for a limited time. 37 Brook Street |**jms%vanth@snark.thyrsus.com***| Montgomery, PA 17752 | 72750.2335@compuserve.com | (Rush, "Dreamline") Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!hellgate.utah.edu!csn!scicom!paranet!p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG!Michael.Corbin From: Michael.Corbin@p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Michael Corbin) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Mcorbin Address Message-ID: <73844.28AB1B73@paranet.FIDONET.ORG> Date: 15 Aug 91 23:32:00 GMT Sender: ufgate@paranet.FIDONET.ORG (newsout1.26) Organization: FidoNet node 1:104/428.0 - ParaNet(sm) A, Arvada CO Lines: 28 > From: anachem@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu (mark s gilstrap) > Date: 13 Aug 91 21:50:12 GMT > Organization: Indiana University, Bloomington > Message-ID: <1991Aug13.215012.26860@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu> > Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors > > > Sorry to post this here. > > I acan't get a reply to MCORBIN via the SMTP path > that came attached to original message. > > I need an address that works. There are three addresses that work reliably, although please don't send anything to me at the fidonet.org address. It is not reliable. mcorbin@scicom.alphacdc.com mcorbin@paranet.org mcorbin@csn.org Mike -- Michael Corbin - via FidoNet node 1:104/422 UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name INTERNET: Michael.Corbin@p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!hellgate.utah.edu!csn!scicom!paranet!p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG!Michael.Corbin From: Michael.Corbin@p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Michael Corbin) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Strieber Message-ID: <73845.28AB1B75@paranet.FIDONET.ORG> Date: 15 Aug 91 23:41:00 GMT Sender: ufgate@paranet.FIDONET.ORG (newsout1.26) Organization: FidoNet node 1:104/428.0 - ParaNet(sm) A, Arvada CO Lines: 29 > From: dlcogswe@vela.acs.oakland.edu (Dan Cogswell) > Date: 14 Aug 91 16:40:09 GMT > Organization: Oakland University, Rochester MI. > Message-ID: <8969@vela.acs.oakland.edu> > Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors > What is it that has you so convinced that he made the whole story up? I > realize the burden of proof is on Whitley, but it seems to me he's done > everything he can to prove that it really did happen and he's not lying. > Please tell us which part indicates to you that this experience is not > real. If it's not, then I agree with you. If it is real, then I see no > problems with the man telling his story. Let's just say that giving his experience, his background, and the fact that Whitley can't prove his experience, I am very skeptical that it even happened to him. My objection is not with Whitley writing about such things, or anyone for that matter. What my objection is comes from those who read this stuff immediately jumping on the bandwagon and assuming that it is true, cut-and-dried, without any proof. This must be taken with a large block of salt. Mike -- Michael Corbin - via FidoNet node 1:104/422 UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name INTERNET: Michael.Corbin@p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!hellgate.utah.edu!csn!scicom!paranet!p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG!Michael.Corbin From: Michael.Corbin@p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Michael Corbin) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: One More Thought On Strieber Message-ID: <73846.28AB1B77@paranet.FIDONET.ORG> Date: 15 Aug 91 23:49:00 GMT Sender: ufgate@paranet.FIDONET.ORG (newsout1.26) Organization: FidoNet node 1:104/428.0 - ParaNet(sm) A, Arvada CO Lines: 35 > From: jdm@cadence.com (Joe Mastroianni) > Date: 14 Aug 91 16:20:12 GMT > Organization: Cadence Design Systems, Inc. > Message-ID: <1991Aug14.162012.731@cadence.com> > Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors > This has occurred to me as well. I have found that most people who have a traumatic *personal* experience with this subject are more inclined not to publicize it. If they do, it is usually done through the writing of the impersonal investigator who has thoroughly documented his case. In Whitley's case, it was not thoroughly investigated by an impersonal investigator, nor has he been medically examined with the report made publicly available. Second, Whitley admits involvement with the occult, which generally tends to only muddy the water where abduction is concerned. As for the issue of who writes the book, and for what motive: I would say that Communion was sensationalized to a high degree. Most abduction experiences are dramatic, but limited in scope of what Strieber has expounded on for media requirements. You can extract a book out of one's experience, however Whitley's story has been embellished and diluted to the point where you can't sift what really happened from what Whitley has decided to add to it for shock value. You will find that many people who read the book experience a wide range of emotions. This is the work of a professional author with a very vivid imagination. In real life, abduction experiences are interesting, but they are all basically the same. Although they invoke some emotion, they don't to the degree that Whitley's do. Mike -- Michael Corbin - via FidoNet node 1:104/422 UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name INTERNET: Michael.Corbin@p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!hellgate.utah.edu!csn!scicom!paranet!p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG!Michael.Corbin From: Michael.Corbin@p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Michael Corbin) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Strieber Message-ID: <73847.28AB1B79@paranet.FIDONET.ORG> Date: 15 Aug 91 23:56:00 GMT Sender: ufgate@paranet.FIDONET.ORG (newsout1.26) Organization: FidoNet node 1:104/428.0 - ParaNet(sm) A, Arvada CO Lines: 44 > From: csuxr@warwick.ac.uk (Andrew Shires) > Date: 15 Aug 91 01:49:03 GMT > Organization: Computing Services, Warwick University, UK > Message-ID: <~RV}C3{@warwick.ac.uk> > Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors > Agreed. Do abductees have any success in getting treatment from the > everyday > psychological specialist? That would be purely subjective. However, I would say that the symptoms of trauma could be successfully treated by a professional. The experience should not be treated as the highlight of therapy, since there are no precedents established for this sort of thing. However, with enough study, a treatment could be found. The professional psychological community has been dealing with this problem, although nothing solid has been arrived at. > Fair enough, but isn't the `support group' then something that has to be > questioned throughout society? Surely people get something out of just > knowing they are not alone in their experiences? I agree. However, I would say that the support group should be directed by a professional. > Of course it is, but that's really no grounds for rejection of his > story. > The scientific status of hypnotic regression and subsequent questioning > is > undoubtedly shaky. I would agree that Streiber may have done harm in > giving > this sort of thing a positive image in his work. It certainly makes for > an > exciting story, of course. (Maybe I'm beginning to agree with you!) See my remarks to Dan Cogswell. Mike -- Michael Corbin - via FidoNet node 1:104/422 UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name INTERNET: Michael.Corbin@p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!hellgate.utah.edu!csn!scicom!paranet!p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG!Michael.Corbin From: Michael.Corbin@p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Michael Corbin) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Hanger 19 And Roswell Incident Message-ID: <73848.28AB1B7B@paranet.FIDONET.ORG> Date: 15 Aug 91 23:57:00 GMT Sender: ufgate@paranet.FIDONET.ORG (newsout1.26) Organization: FidoNet node 1:104/428.0 - ParaNet(sm) A, Arvada CO Lines: 22 > From: jms@vanth.UUCP (Jim Shaffer) > Date: 14 Aug 91 04:36:19 GMT > Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence > Message-ID: > Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors > A guy named T. S. Bennett went to Dulce, but I don't know if he found > anything. Dr. Bennewitz says it got trashed by the Delta Force two > years > ago anyway :-) The only thing Bennett found there were a few rattlesnakes. Allen Benz also went and found nothing. Mike -- Michael Corbin - via FidoNet node 1:104/422 UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name INTERNET: Michael.Corbin@p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!hellgate.utah.edu!csn!scicom!paranet!p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG!Michael.Corbin From: Michael.Corbin@p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Michael Corbin) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Aliens: The Big _lie_ !!! Message-ID: <73849.28AB1B7D@paranet.FIDONET.ORG> Date: 16 Aug 91 00:02:00 GMT Sender: ufgate@paranet.FIDONET.ORG (newsout1.26) Organization: FidoNet node 1:104/428.0 - ParaNet(sm) A, Arvada CO Lines: 45 > From: eherrera@zinfandel.metaphor.com (Eric Herrera) > Date: 15 Aug 91 07:59:35 GMT > Organization: Metaphor Computer Systems, Mountain View, CA > Message-ID: <1094@cronos.metaphor.com> > Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors > Also, that doesn't explain the cattle mutilations and BB probes up > folks' > noses. I don't see the govt. finding a need for steer pituitaries and > deciding that cloned humanoids are the way to go. I suppose the govt. > *might* have some reason to stick BBs in people's brains via nose- > pokers, > but once again, why the "artificial greys?" There have never been any documented cases of implants found up people's noses. However, I have heard that there was an implant recovered recently and is being studied by an undisclosed medical university on the east coast somewhere. We were to have heard a report, but that is overdue about three months now. Although cattle mutilations remain a paramount mystery, have you ever considered the "psych" angle as the reason for the cattle mutilations? This could be government-based, although I would not say that using the term government is an accurate term. That provides too broad a brush stroke to what might be a clandestine group with its own agenda. > Zachary's post brings up a point that has been puzzling me, however. > Perhaps one of you Biology-philes can set me straight. Presuming the > greys are truly ETs (or EBEs, or whatever is polically correct), is > there some rule that says intelligent life *must* develop into a human- > like form? (2 arms, 2 eyes, etc.) And oxygen-breathing to boot? Why > can't our ETs be ammonia-absorbing jellyfish, or non-corporeal even? > Does this make sense to anybody? Very good point. The late Dr. J. Allen Hynek used to say that we must perceive the possibilities as we know them and the possibilities as we do not know them. Mike -- Michael Corbin - via FidoNet node 1:104/422 UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name INTERNET: Michael.Corbin@p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!hellgate.utah.edu!csn!scicom!paranet!p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG!Michael.Corbin From: Michael.Corbin@p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Michael Corbin) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Yo! Needles/communion & Shit Message-ID: <73850.28AB1B7F@paranet.FIDONET.ORG> Date: 16 Aug 91 00:03:00 GMT Sender: ufgate@paranet.FIDONET.ORG (newsout1.26) Organization: FidoNet node 1:104/428.0 - ParaNet(sm) A, Arvada CO Lines: 19 > From: kelvinf@hpgrla.gr.hp.com (Kelvin Fedrick) > Date: 14 Aug 91 20:58:52 GMT > Organization: Hewlett-Packard, Greeley, CO > Message-ID: <15230004@hpgrla.gr.hp.com> > Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors > Without permanently damaging or killing Strieber to get it at least :-) That is assuming that the implant even exists. Unless I am wrong, I don't think this fact has ever been substantiated. Mike -- Michael Corbin - via FidoNet node 1:104/422 UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name INTERNET: Michael.Corbin@p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG Path: ns-mx!uunet!wupost!sdd.hp.com!news.cs.indiana.edu!nstn.ns.ca!pony.acadiau.ca!aucs!881102r From: 881102r@aucs.acadiau.ca (Joe) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: test Message-ID: <881102r.682347565@aucs> Date: 16 Aug 91 12:59:25 GMT Sender: news@pony.acadiau.ca (USENet News) Organization: Acadia University Lines: 6 Nntp-Posting-Host: aucs.acadiau.ca test -- I don't want no nifty pad, I want a house just like Mom & Dad I wanna be stereo-typed, I wanna be classified +------------------------ I wanna be masochistic, I wanna be sadistic | Joe Raaymakers .. I want a suburban home -- The Descendents | 881102r@aucs.AcadiaU.ca Path: ns-mx!uunet!decwrl!deccrl!news.crl.dec.com!nntpd.lkg.dec.com!willee.enet.dec.com!fretts From: fretts@willee.enet.dec.com (Carole Fretts) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: ALIENS: THE BIG _LIE_ !!! Message-ID: <26297@shlump.lkg.dec.com> Date: 16 Aug 91 14:35:28 GMT Sender: newsdaemon@shlump.lkg.dec.com Distribution: usa Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation Lines: 12 In article <45679@cup.portal.com>, sgraziano@cup.portal.com (Steve - Graziano) writes... >To answer the question about why we are seeing aliens that look like us, >I think it ultimately comes down to a psychological factor... ....maybe the 'aliens' are not really alien to us....maybe they are part of our lineage. Just speculation. Carole Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!rpi!crdgw1!ge-dab!tarpit!bilver!dona From: dona@bilver.uucp (Don Allen) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Project Majestic Question Message-ID: <1991Aug14.034741.1561@bilver.uucp> Date: 14 Aug 91 03:47:41 GMT References: <55210001@hpcupt1.cup.hp.com> <1991Aug12.111120.1@ego.uh.cwru.edu> Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL Lines: 47 In article <1991Aug12.111120.1@ego.uh.cwru.edu> manfredi@ego.uh.cwru.edu writes: >In article <55210001@hpcupt1.cup.hp.com>, trey@hpcupt1.cup.hp.com (Trey Wedge) writes: >> Has anyone seen the MJ-12 or Project Majestic text from Cooper here, >> or somewhere? A better question is... has anyone saved it? > > Q: Are you referring to Bill Cooper here? If so, the *best* authority on > him (IMHO) is Mary Ann Hawk, co-director of the Cleveland UFOlogy Pro- > ject in Cleveland, Ohio. She has attended conferences and seminars > (on UFOs and psychotronics) all over the world, and as a consequence has > come across Mr. Cooper and/or his material very often. She is always > happy to share. If you would like further information on Ms. Hawk or > C.U.P., please E-mail me. > Gee..and I though Timmy Bennett was the best authority on Bill Cooper..darn.. looks like I was _wrong_ (Inside joke folks :-) > A friend who is not on the net wants a copy of something that >> I had seen on the net in alt.conspiracy about a year ago, about >> the Project Majestic and links to the FBI CIA etc. >> >> Anyone have any info? Please reply by E-mail if possible. > > FYI: Majestic, by Whitley Streiber, is an excellent *reference* source on > ^^^^^^^^ > MJ-12. He wrote the book after interviewing many people involved with/ > related to the project. > >No disclaimer. WE'RE ALL ONE. I'm sorry to have to break this to you....but if you are regarding Whitley Strieber as an "excellent source of information on MJ-12" than you are sadly mis-informed. Whitley Strieber is NOT a UFO investigator..if Whitley got his background on Majestic (his FICTIONAL book), then it was from a Govt DIS-INFO agent, William L. Moore. Please do your research more thoroughly! Don -- -* Don Allen *- InterNet: dona@bilver.UUCP // Amiga..for the best of us. USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-) UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!vicstoy!dona 0110 0110 0110 Just say NO! Illuminati < MJ-12|Greys|TLC|CFR|FED|Bilderbergs > UN = "New World Order" Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!rpi!crdgw1!ge-dab!tarpit!bilver!dona From: dona@bilver.uucp (Don Allen) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Reading material Message-ID: <1991Aug14.035138.1666@bilver.uucp> Date: 14 Aug 91 03:51:38 GMT References: <1022@cronos.metaphor.com> Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL Lines: 32 >"Aliens Among Us", along with the rest of Ruth Montgomery's books, is >extremely New Age-biased. If reading of Atlantis and channeled entities >bothers you, avoid it. (I read it once just to see what that part of the >UFO world was up to. Usually I stick to things that are a bit more >material. [Though I don't rule out the possibility of psychic/magickal >experiences, it's impossible to verify that they really happened as opposed >to being purely human in origin, and some of the literature based upon >them is absolute drivel.]) Yea..I got this book..it's very LONG on declarations and SHORT on fact. I put her book in the same category as Adamski's "Inside the Flying Suacers" Don > >-- > * From the disk of: |****** NOTE NEW ADDRESSES ******| We're only immortal > Jim Shaffer, Jr. |* uunet!snark!vanth!jms *| for a limited time. > 37 Brook Street |**jms%vanth@snark.thyrsus.com***| > Montgomery, PA 17752 | 72750.2335@compuserve.com | (Rush, "Dreamline") -- -* Don Allen *- InterNet: dona@bilver.UUCP // Amiga..for the best of us. USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-) UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!vicstoy!dona 0110 0110 0110 Just say NO! Illuminati < MJ-12|Greys|TLC|CFR|FED|Bilderbergs > UN = "New World Order" Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!rpi!crdgw1!ge-dab!tarpit!bilver!dona From: dona@bilver.uucp (Don Allen) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: whitley Strieber/reliability Message-ID: <1991Aug14.040221.1802@bilver.uucp> Date: 14 Aug 91 04:02:21 GMT References: <1991Aug11.003214.25098@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu> Distribution: na Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL Lines: 187 In article <1991Aug11.003214.25098@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu> graham@venus.iucf.indiana.edu writes: >In article , steve@ram.prpa.philips.com (Steven J. Kudlak) writes... >>Well when I read Strieber's fiction books I almost fainted. The things >>he posits in his fiction books, such as >Wolfen< and the >Night Chruch< >>resonate very clearly with his visitor experiences. It is almost as if >>some version of his dreams sprung to life. This is a very clear. He also > I have something here that you guys should be aware of..it's Whit's last Newsletter (in part) and a response from a friend of mind on the BBS side of the UFO echoes..his comments, I thought were quite lucid. I will leave it up to you to persue it a bit further., Bear in mind than not everything is what it seems to be and (in my opinion) Strieber is a rather strange and un-reliable character: ------Begin included text ------------------------------------------------ "The Communion Letter" - cover letter from the Spring Issue, 1991; Volume 3, No. 1. Copyright 1991, Wilson and Neff, Inc. Dora Ruffner, Editor, PO Box 10235, San Antonio, TX 78210-0235. Anne Strieber, Executive Editor, 496 La Guardia Place, New Yo rk, NY 10012 ============================================================================= Dear Reader: I would like to thank you for your patronage of the Communion Letter. Your subscription ends with this issue, and we are not taking new subscriptions or renewals. A list of available back issues is printed on the reverse of this letter for those who may be interested in collecting. I had always intended to run the newsletter about two years, and that amount of time has now passed. During this period the Communion Letter has gained a large circulation and, I believe, published some remarkable articles. But all good things must come to an end. I am not a UFO researcher and do not wish to endure the continued media attack that is associated with being involved in this field. In addition, the so-called "UFO-ologists" are probably the cruellest, nastiest and craziest people I have ever encountered. Their interpretation of the visitor experience is rubbish from beginning to end. The "abduction reports" that they generate are not real. They are artifacts of hypnosis and cultural conditioning. What we are experiencing is a perceptual anomaly that is sufficiently ambiguous and intense that it demands explanation. It is something that human beings have been experiencing for a long time. It is the cause of religion, of mythology, of folklore. Presently it is the cause of the "alien abduction" belief. What is *really* behind our experiences? We are. This is a human thing. However, I would also say that it indicates that we--and our world--are vastly different, and far more strange, than we have ever dreamed, or dared imagine. With that I leave you. Whitley Strieber ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 07-22-91 21:19 From: John Powell Subj: Communion Letter, Bye Bye Strieber sure had a lot to say about a lot of topics in the Farewell issue of The Communion Letter. ("The Communion Letter" from the Spring Issue, 1991; Volume 3, No. 1. Copyright 1991, Wilson and Neff, Inc. Dora Ruffner, Editor, PO Box 10235, San Antonio, TX 78210-0235. Anne Strieber, Executive Editor, 496 La Guardia Place, New York, NY 10012) The most important points that Strieber is apparently trying very hard to make are also the most difficult ones to decipher and understand. I suppose that shouldn't be a surprise since Strieber, given his training and profession, deals with a version of reality that at best is highly exaggerated and at worst is completely artificial. (I also found it unnecessarily tedious to have to read "between the lines", a practice not generally required when examining genuine expository writing. In what follows I have tried to avoid writing "between the lines" unless Strieber provided no other reasonable alternative.) Please note that my questions are mostly rhetorical or at least not directly at you personally... First, some of Whit's more easily extractable comments. Here's what he has to say about... UFOlogists: -+--------- "...are probably the cruellest, nastiest and craziest people I have ever encountered. Their interpretation of the visitor experience is rubbish from beginning to end. The "abduction reports" that they generate are not real. They are artifacts of hypnosis and cultural conditioning." "...looney certitudes offered by UFO fanatics." "Jealousy is an illness, and it is highly contagious, and the UFO community is sick to death with it." "...the so-called "typical abduction experience" that has been concocted by the UFO community." "...the [Communion] groups were operating as an alternative to a very nasty little cult run by people so startlingly ignorant of what they are doing that they do not even understand that they are brainwashing their victims." I was rather disappointed to see Strieber take such a wide brush to what is actually a very large and highly varied group of people who mostly have in commom a genuine desire to find out what is going on. Why would Strieber try to turn tens of thousands of people away from ufologists and ufology? Especially when these people are at the core of the phenomenon... UFOlogy: -+------ "...the UFO community, whom they [Strieber's scientist friends] regard as a kooky backwater plagued by the fuzzy thinking of losers with poor academic credentials, who are motivated by superstition and insane jealousies." "Until organizations like MUFON and CUFOS disintegrate or become discredited, and the press is allowed to discover that there are people with strong and respected credentials working on the subject, further progress is unlikely." "...the UFO junk, with the attendant risk of being made into a hypnotized zombie." "I do not accept most UFO doctrine, at least not as it is expressed by American believers." These and other similar statements were equally disappointing. Strieber effectively trashes the people involved in trying to find out what is going on, the organizations they are associated with in trying to find out what is going on, the media, and the government. Aside from Strieber himself what's left? Are we suppossed to think that _everybody_ sucks except Whitley? Strieber's whining is incessant, I don't know how he defines "poor academic credentials", nor do I know who his scientist friends are, but it seems to me that _someone_ is unfamiliar with the rosters of MUFON and CUFOS. Furthermore, I find the idea of Strieber sitting in judgement over all of these people and their collective contributions to be something best suited to what Strieber does best - fiction. UFOs: -+--- "The presence of UFO's, at least, has already been proven. The problem is not one of whether or not they exist, but rather, what they are." Strieber says that he is "not a UFO researcher" yet he comments on Roswell: "I was able to do some research into this affair which must remain confidential, but it convinced me that the Air Force obtained, without a doubt, some material from the desert north of Roswell, New Mexico, that it could not explain at the time." Mildly stated and cloaked in confidentiality his opinion is more interesting in light of his feelings on CUFOS and the recent work Randle & Schmitt have done. Yes, the presence of UFOs _is_ clearly established, to my knowledge without help from Strieber, and a large amount of congratulation is due the very people and organizations that Strieber wishes to see discredited or destroyed outright - strange sentiments coming from someone who claims to also want the truth found. Strieber's contends that the visitors and the visitor experience are a natural part of the evolution of humankind and he makes fairly clear a significant part of his understanding of that process saying that it "begins, always, with destruction." However, according to Strieber, we should welcome this destruction and the destructors and not fear them. "What is the secret of the lamb lying down with the lion? The lamb sees that the full expression of his life requires him to surrender to the lion. To fully express himself he must serve nature, and so also the lion." "The lion is not evil because he eats the lamb. Rather, he is simply hungry, and he has a right to his hunger." "Earth is fat with flesh: she is aching for the days of harvest." Personally, I'd like a wee bit more choice in the matter... He suggests that we can contribute to, perhaps hasten, this process if we "abandon myth, abandon folklore, abandon culture, abandon all the engines of deceit..." He flatly states that the "only way to proceed is to accept that the soul has an objective reality and - at the present moment - we haven't got the faintest idea what that means." We also don't have any evidence... Strieber treats his friends about as well as he seems to treat everyone else: "Why would it be that one journalist came to my cabin and had an encounter, and another did not? Why would a weak, hysterical fool have elaborate contact, while a well-educated, competent scientist would not?" Strieber concludes the final issue of the Communion Letter with: "Will we meet again?" I hope not. I do not give him special credit for popularizing the Abduction phenomenon since Hopkins and Fowler, among others, were doing that long before Strieber got reamed. Strieber, and the Communion Letter, have clearly (IMHO) helped to create and spread disinformation and I cannot help but think that this might have been intentional. His fictionalization of the Roswell event in Majestic was more adolescent and humorous than it was accurate or informative and their support of Moore, an admitted gov't agent, is more than indictment enough. My only concern is for all those people who are now not only cutoff from his minor information but who may also be, if they obey Strieber's directives, essentially isolated from the serious prospect of help and recovery. Thanks, take care. John. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don -- -* Don Allen *- InterNet: dona@bilver.UUCP // Amiga..for the best of us. USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-) UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!vicstoy!dona 0110 0110 0110 Just say NO! Illuminati < MJ-12|Greys|TLC|CFR|FED|Bilderbergs > UN = "New World Order" Path: ns-mx!uunet!crdgw1!ge-dab!tarpit!bilver!dona From: dona@bilver.uucp (Don Allen) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: FILE: OH Krill part 4 (Conclusion) Message-ID: <1991Aug13.014758.9829@bilver.uucp> Date: 13 Aug 91 01:47:58 GMT References: <1991Aug8.055411.24453@bilver.uucp> <1991Aug9.201944.5348@cadence.com> <19296@darkstar.ucsc.edu> Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL Lines: 29 In article <19296@darkstar.ucsc.edu> beeboy@cats.ucsc.edu (Rev. D.P. Rubin) writes: > >Very intereesting reading there...does this have any connection with the >artifacts/ruins found on Mars (of which the 'face' is the most famous) or >with theories of life on Titan? > >Whether it's true or not, it's fascinating! >-- >_______________Don't push me, 'cause I'm close to the edge_____________________ >___________________________________________________-Grandmaster Flash_________ >Reverend Beeboy, minister of Pornography, Graffiti consultant, and the Thug. >Disclaimer: Bass for ya face, Santa Cruz! >"Welcome my friends to Palomar. Where men are men, and women need a sense of > humor." > -Carmen, _Love and Rockets_ >________________________________________________________________________________ I _seriously_ doubt it. It _would_ make a GREAT script for a movie, though. :-) Don -- -* Don Allen *- InterNet: dona@bilver.UUCP // Amiga..for the best of us. USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-) UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!vicstoy!dona 0110 0110 0110 Just say NO! Illuminati < MJ-12|Greys|TLC|CFR|FED|Bilderbergs > UN = "New World Order" Path: ns-mx!uunet!crdgw1!ge-dab!tarpit!bilver!dona From: dona@bilver.uucp (Don Allen) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Communion question Keywords: communion Message-ID: <1991Aug13.022822.10504@bilver.uucp> Date: 13 Aug 91 02:28:22 GMT References: Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL Lines: 97 In article ewf2@ra.MsState.Edu (Juice S. Aaron) writes: > >A few months ago I picked up and read the vast majority of >the book called Communion. What the book had to say >was quite interesting and sometimes somewhat shocking >for me. I spent many a night wondering if big ugly >aliens with spindly arms would come waltzing down my >hall (or if they already had and I just didn't remember >it.) Then I heard that there was a movie based on >the book and after waiting millenia for it to be >released on video was able to watch it. >I noticed that the screenplay for the movie was >written by Streiber himself so I thought >we'll get the real picture that was presented in >the book. Now I watched the movie and afterwards >I found myself wondering if it was actually true to the >book. Several minor little things were changed, (such >as the gender of the psychiatrist he went to) but nothing >major seemed out of place until the scene near the end with >the aliens in suit coats and the strangeness that went on then. >I seem to remember the movie having something really >out of place near the end that involved the aliens >dressed up like humans who removed their faces to show >human faces under them. I don't seem to remember that >from the book. (Not to say it wasn't in the book as I >didn't read some bits of the book as well as I read other >bits) >Did the movie stick to the book or did streiber take >liberties with his own supposedly true story? In my opinion and frankly, the movie absolutely sucked donkey dust..it meandered, and was boring. The BOOK was much better...a lot more scarier. On the BBS side of the UFO echoes..we have been indulging in quite a bit of "Whitley bashing"...and for some good reasons. There's _something_ about Strieber that, in my opinion, just does not ring "true". Also, it did NOT help that Strieber (in my opinion) has associated himself with a KNOWN Govt dis-info agent, such as Bill Moore (of Moore and Berlitz fame) and I've watched how Strieber has "changed" his tune over the last 2 years. Strieber, in a letter that has (by now) been widely circulated, has discontinued his "Communion Newsletter" and done an about face on some of his views of UFOlogists. In short, he blasted them. I can only conclude (my opinion) that whether or not Strieber had his views changed by his own experiences or by "other means", is that he was perhaps "gotten to" by agents of dis-info. It has _also_ crossed my mind that Strieber could also be PART of the dis-info campaigns. Like I said, there's something about Strieber that just don't seem right. If the GOVT wanted to know just how far the abduction syndrome had progessed...what better way then to set up a GREAT cover story with a well known writer to get people's NAMES when they poured out their stories in the "Communion Newsletter". But then again, this is just one of my theories :-) One of the covert methods of disinformation is to impart partial truth and partial fiction in such a way that it neatly detours you from reaching the necessary conclusions to perhaps take action (if any). Personally, I have kept _uppermost_ in my mind, the FACT that this guy IS a writer and I've not ever hopped on the "Strieber bandwagon" (such as it has been). My opinion is that he _may_ have had a real experience but just _what kind_ of "experience" is that to want? I just read the "Father Young" postings that were put here re: Strieber and found them most illuminating. I also *still* of the opinion that nothing of GOD would abduct people and mutilate cattle, nor cause undue stress or seek to possess the soul of "the chosen" in a horrific and non-volitional way. I, for one, am no way interested in taking up Strieber's FICTION as the truth and am diametrically opposed to Strieber's methods of "getting closer" to _his_ version of reality. If you want a _better_ work to study abduction phenomena, I would recommend Dr Edith Fiore's books on her case studies of abduction victims. It would save you from all the BS of wading through Strieber's "work". One of her better known books is called "Encounters" and is a good book, in my opinion. Don -- -* Don Allen *- InterNet: dona@bilver.UUCP // Amiga..for the best of us. USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-) UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!vicstoy!dona 0110 0110 0110 Just say NO! Illuminati < MJ-12|Greys|TLC|CFR|FED|Bilderbergs > UN = "New World Order" Path: ns-mx!uunet!crdgw1!ge-dab!tarpit!bilver!dona From: dona@bilver.uucp (Don Allen) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: OH Krill Message-ID: <1991Aug13.033829.11892@bilver.uucp> Date: 13 Aug 91 03:38:29 GMT References: <1991Aug10.064459.2450@colorado.edu> Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL Lines: 126 In article <1991Aug10.064459.2450@colorado.edu> clarkbr@spot.Colorado.EDU (CLARK BRIAN R) writes: > > > I read the OH Krill file posted recently by Don Allen, and would > like to pose a question to all interested, in particular Mr. Allen. > How can we assess the credibility of UFO information? The OH Krill > file was posted with the caveat that it is held in low esteem by the > UFO community; for what reasons is this so? How can the would-be > investigator separate the possible truth from the probable bullshit? > > Those with experience in separating the wheat from the chaff would > help the rest of us by sharing their experience. Or is there no way of > avoiding the dis-information? Don, you have the floor... > > That's my two-cents worth. Spell-checked and everything. > > Brian > > That's a very good question. One of the hardest things to do in this field is to establish what is credible (by that I mean checkable facts and solid sources) and to separate the "wheat from the chaff". Unfortunately, the "chaff" is abundant. Let's take for example a "newbie" coming into this field "raw"..he get's ahold of some Bill Moore/Bill Cooper/John Grace text and proceeds to read all he can, or perhaps he's seen a Bill Cooper lecture. These above-mentioned people (I left out John Lear :-) would have you believing after reading their material that you had better sleep with a shotgun nearby lest you get dragged off as a "snack" :^_) This is to say, that in this field and like many others, there are individuals who are ONLY out to either make a NAME (ie EGO) for themselves or are just profit-minded and don't give a damn what they say to people, as long as they get the bucks rolling in (Cooper) or who are so paranoid (Lear) or who are just following their own hidden agendas and have not proven themselves reliable and who have been involved in dubious Govt smear campaigns (Moore-->Bennewitz). Bear in mind...that if the objective is to cross a booby-trapped field, you must step gingerly. There is NO "short cuts". It is better for you to be skeptical and seek documentation for some (obviously) wild claims in this field. This field also encompasses the "fringes" as well (Channelling, Space Brothers,related paranormal events). When someone or some group makes "statements" or "claims"...if they are credible, they will usually cite the references or sources so you can go out and check them. Beware and flee from anyone who claims to have the _only_ "truth" and when challenged upon their sources, resorts to personal attacks instead. "Thou unbeliever!" I can be both a believer _and_ a skeptic depending on the case. If you are _really_ into research, be prepared to do ALOT of reading, cross-checking and sourcing out documentation. Do NOT accept or assume anything at face value. It seems to be a hallmark of this field that the _more_ you read; instead of getting your questions answered, you end up with even more questions :-) The one thing that I truly do hate to see..is when (supposedly) UFO groups that are "on the same side" are instead, very competitive with each other and make disparaging remarks about each other in public forums that do NOT serve the best interest of anyone. If the GOAL is truly to educate the public, the best way, in my opinion is LIVE up to those "high and noble" ends and to keep their "dirty laundry and snide remarks" to themselves and to work harder to "talk the talk and walk the walk". IF they would do this, the public would be _better_ served and it would be a "win win" for all. I'm involved in ALL the UFO BBS echoes and try to be helpful in everything I do. I had to learn the hard way that to participate in witless and pointless flame wars between "this group is F*cked up and we do it better" is a vast waste of my time and frankly is counter-productive. I would hope to pass on this to you so you can avoid embroiling yourself in elitist notions of "them vs us". The largest UFO "echo" on the BBS's is called "FIDO UFO" and is often called "Fight-o-UFO" in derision. It is large,simply because it has a huge backbone to travel upon and whenever you get about 50-100 people on this large of an echo (on BBS's it's called an echo..on Usenet it would probably be called a "newsgroup), you can *expect* to have such a diversity of opinion that flareups are bound to happen from time to time and there _was_ such a time when it truly did earn it's "fight-o-net" epithet honestly...but things change and people do not stay static and there has since been a "change of mgmt" of moderators on that echo...so it would seem that we who do a good bit of discussions on the various UFO echoes could profit by checking our EGO at the door and getting "on with it". In truth, we are ALL trying to "get to the bottom of the whole thing", and the better we can all cooperate with each other, the better off we are. I take a moment to mention this to you because at some point, you may "discover" that there are UFO message areas on your local BBS that you may not be aware of. These areas are actually national echoes that are carried via FIDO (some on the backbone) and some are independently fed through to other networks. The available UFO echoes exponentially dwarf in message content (you will have to sort the noise to signal ratio tho) than what is available on Usenet here. What is available? Info.Paranet Fido UFO (IFNA) UFINET_USA (Bill English's national echo) Bama (The Alabama UFO network arm of MUFON) MUFONET Contact (echo of MUFONET) ET Eckar (is it still around?) ASK_UFO (UFO MAGAZINE echo off Paranet) Just to name a few.... Don -- -* Don Allen *- InterNet: dona@bilver.UUCP // Amiga..for the best of us. USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-) UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!vicstoy!dona 0110 0110 0110 Just say NO! Illuminati < MJ-12|Greys|TLC|CFR|FED|Bilderbergs > UN = "New World Order" Path: ns-mx!uunet!wupost!m.cs.uiuc.edu!vela!dlcogswe From: dlcogswe@vela.acs.oakland.edu (Dan Cogswell) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: One More Thought On Strieber Message-ID: <9036@vela.acs.oakland.edu> Date: 16 Aug 91 16:06:17 GMT References: <73846.28AB1B77@paranet.FIDONET.ORG> Organization: Oakland University, Rochester MI. Lines: 21 Michael.Corbin@p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Michael Corbin) writes: >In real life, abduction experiences are interesting, >but they are all basically the same. Although they invoke some emotion, they >don't to the degree that Whitley's do. Isn't it possible that *most* people who are abducted probably aren't as good at describing the experience as Strieber is? A third party documenting a case is able to tell what happened and perhaps the effect it had on the person, but describing their emotions and putting the reader in their position is much harder. Seems to me, Strieber does both of these things and that's the difference in his story from others. Is there something in the story you object to, Mike? I mean, is there something that just doesn't fit and is just crazy? Simply because Strieber is able to vividly describe the occurances doesn't mean they aren't real or are embellished. >Michael Corbin - via FidoNet node 1:104/422 -- Dan Cogswell dlcogswe@vela.acs.oakland.edu Mostly H20 and whatever pizza and Diet Pepsi digest into Path: ns-mx!uunet!wupost!usc!rpi!crdgw1!ge-dab!tarpit!bilver!dona From: dona@bilver.uucp (Don Allen) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Reply to 'Web of Conspiracy'....ALIEN PLOT??!?!! Message-ID: <1991Aug15.053143.9167@bilver.uucp> Date: 15 Aug 91 05:31:43 GMT References: <7589@ns-mx.uiowa.edu> Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL Lines: 57 In article <7589@ns-mx.uiowa.edu> zharman@umaxc.weeg.uiowa.edu (Zachary Harman) writes: >There was a time in my life when I was convinced of this whole >alien plot. Now however, I am very skeptical of it all. After >reading Don Allen's four-part "Web of Conspiracy" posting, I am >dissapointed. Can anyone possibly believe that something so >fictional is really going on here? > >I'm not saying it's a lie. I wouldn't be overly suprised if it >was true. But _ALOT_ of doubt exists in my mind and we all better >hope it's a lie. If what I read WAS the truth..... > > >Then GOD bless us all... > >(What does everyone else think about this???) You *should* be skeptical of all of this...I would recommend that you write to the C.A.C. organization to get further info and do some checking on all of this _before_ you either accept it or reject it. Take a cue from Jim Shaffer who took the time to respond to the OH Krill postings and see what *outpoints* he noted. I noted when I first read this "tome" that the references to Dr Beter could also be cross-checked against "The Shaver Mystery" of the underground Deros/Teros and Reptoid connection. Also, in checking this out a bit further I've come across a reference to a publication called: "The Alien Digest" The Aquarian Church of Universal Service PO Box 1116 McMinnville, Oregon 97128 Which mentioned Paul Shockley's name in it. This publication is published 6 times a year and it's subscription rate is $27 per year or $10 an issue. I have an introductory copy of this in my hands right now, and it even goes _further_ than the Web files do in some of it's claims. Part of *research* is tracking down what is real and what is BS. People are fond of giving opinions on things, but unless you do some checking...then you're only left with _speculation_. I'm going to say something and I know it's going to sound like a cliche' but it really does prove out: One must study to know, know to understand, understand to judge arightly. Don -- -* Don Allen *- InterNet: dona@bilver.UUCP // Amiga..for the best of us. USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-) UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!vicstoy!dona 0110 0110 0110 Just say NO! Illuminati < MJ-12|Greys|TLC|CFR|FED|Bilderbergs > UN = "New World Order" Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!utgpu!attcan!craig From: craig@attcan.UUCP (Craig Campbell) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: ALIENS: THE BIG _LIE_ !!! Keywords: Conspiracy, Aliens, Dulce, Illuminati Message-ID: <15942@vpk4.UUCP> Date: 16 Aug 91 13:58:34 GMT References: <7608@ns-mx.uiowa.edu> <1094@cronos.metaphor.com> Reply-To: craig@vpk4.ATT.COM (Craig Campbell) Organization: AT&T Canada Inc., Toronto Lines: 24 In article <1094@cronos.metaphor.com> eherrera@zinfandel.metaphor.com (Eric Herrera) writes: >Perhaps one of you Biology-philes can set me straight. Presuming the >greys are truly ETs (or EBEs, or whatever is polically correct), is >there some rule that says intelligent life *must* develop into a human- >like form? (2 arms, 2 eyes, etc.) And oxygen-breathing to boot? Why >can't our ETs be ammonia-absorbing jellyfish, or non-corporeal even? >Does this make sense to anybody? > ___ : Eric P. Herrera : My opinions only... No reason why ET could'n be jelly fish. Of course, you must consider that an ammonia-absorbing jellyfish would probably view the surface of the earth as a hostile and uninviting stop. Think of it this way, how much time would you spend on an alien planet where the atmosphere was totally hostile and inhospitable? Compare that to a planet which was very similar to your home. As for number of appendages, who knows? Perhaps 2 arms and 2 eyes turn out to be commonly 'ideal' in earth like environments? How many animals on this planet don't have 2 arms, two eyes, etc? "Why?" is a very important question, but no more so than "Why not?", craig Path: ns-mx!uunet!cadence!jdm From: jdm@cadence.com (Joe Mastroianni) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Helicopter Stuff Message-ID: <1991Aug16.213247.28676@cadence.com> Date: 16 Aug 91 21:32:47 GMT Organization: Cadence Design Systems, Inc. Lines: 43 What's the deal with this helicopter stuff? I haven't read a UFO book in a while. The last one I read was about two months ago ("The Gulf Breeze Sightings") and before that, "Communion, in early 1990. The Gulf Breeze book makes some mention of helicopters circling Ed Walter's neighborhood. This dosent sound too unusual, as he lives across the river from a military base. However, there seems to be some implication of some sinister aspect to having helicopters around your house. Is this supposed to be related to UFOs? Please advise. I may have grounds for a good story comming up....:-). I have black -- military style, and white civilian style helicopers circling my neighborhood on a daily basis. All of these are unmarked. I was outside with my neighbor yesterday as one circled our heads. I waved. He suggested we call the FAA, as the air traffic was starting to bother him. These choppers come over every day at about dusk, circle once or twice, then leave. I guess they go on to circle other peoples houses. By the way, I live very close to a military air base (Moffet Naval Air Station 20mi away), a commercial airport (San Jose International 15 miles away), and a private airport (Reed-Hillview abt 5 miles away). As my home is on the side of a hill perpendicular to the take-off direction of all of these airbases, we tend to not have direct fly-overs. But, the traffic has increased dramatically in the last two months. We also appear to be singled out in our neighborhood for the helicopters. Do I have grounds to write a UFO book? Are there any publishers out there? What am I supposed to look for? Are the helicopters searching for UFOs? Are the Helicopters UFOs in disguise? Is the NSA staking out my house ? Enquiring minds want to know. Im willing to write a book if someone will pay me handsomely for it. Just tell me what to write. Joe -- Joe Mastroianni AKA: AA6YD AA6YD @ N6LDL.#NOCAL.CA.USA.NA Cadence Design Systems Santa Clara Ca. "Up the airy mountain;down the rushy glen; we jdm@cadence.com daren't go a hunting; for fear of little men " Path: ns-mx!uunet!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!usc!rutgers!noao!amethyst!catalina!marc From: marc@catalina.opt-sci.arizona.edu (Marc Sabb) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Reading material Message-ID: <3054@amethyst.math.arizona.edu> Date: 16 Aug 91 22:07:31 GMT References: <1022@cronos.metaphor.com> Sender: news@amethyst.math.arizona.edu Distribution: usa Organization: Optical Sciences Center, Tucson, AZ Lines: 40 In article mcgrew@porthos.rutgers.edu (Charles Mcgrew) writes: > eherrera@zinfandel.metaphor.com (Eric Herrera) writes: > One question... I presume that we are all familiar with the > plain of Nazca in Peru (big ground etchings of monkeys, > hummingbirds, spiders and other things discernable only from a > pretty good altitude, and supposedly quite old)... any > theories, debunks, etc.? Is this a FAQ? > >... I seem to recall some fellas (funded by Nat'l Geographic Soc., I >think) a few years back trying to create a hot-air balloon with >time-of-drawings-available materials and techniques. They succeeded. > Anybody got a 'harder' reference? >Charles No harder reference but a much more plusible explanation. These folks were awed by nature since most of it was unexplained except using magical ideas and beings. They believed in Gods who watched them. The drawings,etchings,carvings were for these Gods to look at. "Oh wow (insert approp. God) look at that monkey, those guys we put there are ok, let's not kill them yet." The techniques to make them are easily understood by anyone who knows a little geometry, I used to be a surveyor. One doesn't even have to realize that one is using geometry, only to try diffent techniques on a small scale using sticks and ropes then enlarge the idea. Really, no mystery at all. Look at the large Van Gogh in this weeks paper made by a farmer out of flowers. Nothing to it but perserverence. And his Van Gogh looks really nice! -- Marc Sabb INTERNET: marc@catalina.opt-sci.arizona.edu Optical Sciences Center VOICE:(602)-621-4099 University of Arizona Disclaimer:None Tucson, Arizona, USA 85721 Not opinions,observations! Path: ns-mx!uunet!mcsun!ukc!warwick!csuxr From: csuxr@warwick.ac.uk (Andrew Shires) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Strieber Summary: I miss a crucial point in one of Mike's posts... Message-ID: <_#X}W4A@warwick.ac.uk> Date: 16 Aug 91 23:12:15 GMT References: <73847.28AB1B79@paranet.FIDONET.ORG> Sender: news@warwick.ac.uk (Network news) Organization: Computing Services, Warwick University, UK Lines: 24 Nntp-Posting-Host: lily In an earlier posting, I write: >Fair point, but why should we now be convinced that he is making it up? You >still have not presented even casual evidence that Streiber is a liar. It is >in all our interests to establish why it is so. If you have information, but >for some reason cannot expose it, then please tell us, and I'm sure we'll >respect that. But at the moment, all you have told us is that Whitley is a >Bad Boy, without giving any real explanation. In an even earlier posting, Michael Corbin writes: >Message-ID: <73601.28A5F40E@paranet.FIDONET.ORG> > >I have already posted something to the net about Strieber. I have many >stories that I could tell, but it is not something for public consumption. OK, I missed this the first time. I apologise for dragging the `you aren't telling us anything' thread on. I do, however, hold that your (exposed) objections are not enough to convince us of the absolute truth that Strieber is a crook (just as his books are not enough to convince us that it happened). I hope you can see this point, but I'll respect the confidence of your sources, and let this facet of the discussion rest. Andrew Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!ukma!rex!samsung!mips!spool.mu.edu!cs.umn.edu!ux.acs.umn.edu!beddow From: beddow@ux.acs.umn.edu (Jeff Beddow) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Streiber Message-ID: Date: 16 Aug 91 14:13:55 GMT Organization: University of Minnesota, Academic Computing Services Lines: 19 I haven't given much thought to UFO's since I was a science fiction fan during puberty. Recently I decided to check out what was new in the area because I had read Streiber and it aroused my curiosity. In the last two weeks I have reaEd Ruppelt's 1956 book on his project Blue Book experience, a recent book on theRoswell incident, and Jacques Vallee's book called Confrontations. These are some conclusions I am drawing from these books, and the postings here for the last month (including Don Allen's texts.) To me Ruppelt and Vallee are the most convincing authors. They are obviously quite far apart on the philosophical spectrum, but they are both very disciplined and, in their own ways, modest. They also have the quality of humor and spontaneous insight which is very hard to fake as evidence of *real* sincerity. The Roswell book was disappointing ( don't have it here for the cite, but it has been mentioned dozens of times recently.) Despite the dogged thoroughness of the inve stigators, they only quote one source in establishing that no V2 or A9 rocket could have been involved. Since the Military's behavior would be explained by the loss of an experimental rocket with (possibly dwarf human) occupants, I think more effort and documentation should go into following up that angle. The other recurrent theme was the foil with some kind of molecular memory. But it doesn't add up to a very satisfactory report. It was of particular interest to me because my father was a leutenant colonel in the Army Air Corps, and he on at least three occaisions remarked that he had seen things in Nevada or Utah that no one would believe ( I think he was referr ing to Dugway, and I was assuming at the time thathat he was referring to testing of biological warfare materials...) Striber is completely unconvincing to me. As scary entertainment it is pretty good. As *reporting* it leaves me feeling that someone is pulling the wool over my eyes. I have *no* use for the aliens eating people stuff. Why would a galactic civilization want to open a MacHuman franchise here, and go to such great lengths avoiding our detection equipment? If they are as powerful as they are presented to be, they can just harvest us at will. IF they are playing games with us, there is some other scenario than the "two-legged beefsteak, with a side of glandular byproducts." That is where Vallee is intriguing. He suggests that the scale, sites, and details of the encounters point to a form of meta-discourse that must be occuring between humans and their own expectations as projected from some other layer of consciousness or reality. I had heard of this view a few years ago anddismissed it as just another effort by the Jungians to stake a claim on some wierd psychic territory. But Vallee makes a better case for it. I haven't bought it yet, but it deserves some thought. I have yet to see any photographic evidence that is compelling, and with the rapid development of digital image technology that is becoming a spurious source of information. I have never seen a UFO, nor known anyone who claims to...but something is going on. Until I have an encounter, I must use my intuition and experience as a researcher and writer to "read between the lines" of the books available. I recommend ththat everyone interested in this field find and read Ruppelt's book, at the very least. He makes no bones about the "cover-ups" and disinformation efforts of the air force, which makes his other disclosures more convincing. -Jeff Path: ns-mx!uunet!cadence!jdm From: jdm@cadence.com (Joe Mastroianni) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy Subject: Re: FILE: OH Krill part 4 (Conclusion) Message-ID: <1991Aug18.002816.29471@cadence.com> Date: 18 Aug 91 00:28:16 GMT References: <1991Aug8.055411.24453@bilver.uucp> <1991Aug9.201944.5348@cadence.com> <1991Aug13.014457.9608@bilver.uucp> Organization: Cadence Design Systems, Inc. Lines: 34 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:1784 alt.conspiracy:6633 In article <1991Aug13.014457.9608@bilver.uucp> dona@bilver.uucp (Don Allen) writes: >In article <1991Aug9.201944.5348@cadence.com> jdm@cadence.com (Joe Mastroianni) writes: >> >> This is a wonderful story. This should be published in a much longer >>book form with better character development. It is probably best read >>on an airplane speeding across the pacific ocean on the way to some >>exotic Asian destination. >> >> Seriously, though, I think you could get some money for this. There >>was obviously a lot of work and research that went into it. You may >>even want to try to make a screen or teleplay version. >> >> If it were well enought written, there could be a Hugo in it for you. >> >> Joe >> > >Naw...now why would you think that :-) > >I would be *remiss* if I didn't include something here that I just >spotted on the BBS echo called "Fido UFO" direct from Bill English. Heh heh...boy..I feel a lot better knowing you guys dont take that stuff seriously. Anyway, a Hugo is a science-fiction story award. The Krill story could be a big hit as a movie with some big name stars. Joe -- Joe Mastroianni AKA: AA6YD AA6YD @ N6LDL.#NOCAL.CA.USA.NA Cadence Design Systems Santa Clara Ca. "Up the airy mountain;down the rushy glen; we jdm@cadence.com daren't go a hunting; for fear of little men " Path: ns-mx!uunet!cadence!jdm From: jdm@cadence.com (Joe Mastroianni) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: One More Thought On Strieber Message-ID: <1991Aug18.004050.29644@cadence.com> Date: 18 Aug 91 00:40:50 GMT References: <73846.28AB1B77@paranet.FIDONET.ORG> Organization: Cadence Design Systems, Inc. Lines: 46 In article <73846.28AB1B77@paranet.FIDONET.ORG> Michael.Corbin@p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Michael Corbin) writes: > > > From: jdm@cadence.com (Joe Mastroianni) > > Date: 14 Aug 91 16:20:12 GMT > > Organization: Cadence Design Systems, Inc. > > Message-ID: <1991Aug14.162012.731@cadence.com> > > Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors > > > > This has occurred to me as well. > >I have found that most people who have a traumatic *personal* experience with >this subject are more inclined not to publicize it. If they do, it is usually Far be it from me to defend Strieber. Writing is his business. A million plus dollars would motivate me to modify my beliefs in a flash. No kidding. I do have the opinion, though, that like most "stars" he probably believes his own bulls**t. At least, I think hes convinced himself of it. Ive written to Strieber and have been dutifully inserted into a mailing list. As a result of having my name on his list, I am beginning to receive form letters asking me to buy back issues of the "Communion Letter". This is exactly the kind of bogus behaviour that leads me to feel that this UFO-examiners machine is not going to provide any light on the subject in the long run. I think a lot of money will be generated, and things will go unsolved. If you want to write an interesting fiction story here it is: UFO examiner team from a well known independently funded organization covers up valid data revealing some facts about the nature and origin of the visitor phenomenon. The motive for this is to keep the profits rolling in. By the way, Ive already written this story. Joe (still waiting for a publisher) -- Joe Mastroianni AKA: AA6YD AA6YD @ N6LDL.#NOCAL.CA.USA.NA Cadence Design Systems Santa Clara Ca. "Up the airy mountain;down the rushy glen; we jdm@cadence.com daren't go a hunting; for fear of little men " Path: ns-mx!uunet!cadence!jdm From: jdm@cadence.com (Joe Mastroianni) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: whitley Strieber/reliability Message-ID: <1991Aug18.013722.347@cadence.com> Date: 18 Aug 91 01:37:22 GMT References: <1991Aug11.003214.25098@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu> <1991Aug14.040221.1802@bilver.uucp> Distribution: na Organization: Cadence Design Systems, Inc. Lines: 104 I have been thinking about this for a long time. I have been thinking about UFOs and whatnot since I was a little kid. At various times in my life I have taken different positions. When I was in grade school, I was an ardent believer. I had some good stories and I told them. Little kids have no crediblity. As an adult, I also know that little kids have perception problems. I brought my three year old daughter to a horse corral and sat her on the fence. A friendly horse came over. I said to my kid, "Lookit the horsey!" My daughter looked right past the horse no more than 2 feet from her face. She couldnt see it. The damn horse might have been a tree for all she cared. I could not get her to acknowledge that animal for the life of me. When the horse snorted and pawed around with his hoof, she immediately recognized the huge brown shape was living. She jumped into my arms and screamed. See, she had never seen any living thing that big before. So, kids dont know what they are seeing. Or should I say, kids process information differently than adults. This is a gap we all know about. So what? So as I got older and older my position on this alien thing changed. I started to think to myself, what the hell are these people seeing? Maybe its like my daughter. Maybe these big horses come right up to us and we look right past them until they do something that make us recognize them. So what are we seeing? What the hell is going on? When I read this net, I see a lot of different opinions and I try hard not to be associated with any of them. I want to have my own opinion. I dont want to be categorized. This is a real and terror producing thing that is happening to people. This is kind of like a war, I think. There are the gold miners out there who sit above the melee below and extract cash out of the gullible. These people are on both sides of the fence. They are both skeptics and believers. There also seem to be a lot of people trying out new ideas for science fiction stories. These people seem to delight in getting the more gullible on the net to believe their trash. Fine with me. This is like those three-card-monte people in New York city. Theres always some bozo who believes its not a trick and he loses his shirt. Im not sure who is the criminal and who is the victim here. At any rate, these two groups of people were made for each other. This has been happening for all of recorded history. Its nice to know some things never change. But what side am I on? What side are YOU on for that matter? Why the hell do you read this? Folks, I am not gullible. I have spent a lot of time being gullible and it has cost me dearly. I have learned the value of protecting my open mind. However, I detect there may be one thread through this whole alien vistor discussion. That is, your reaction. I mean you, the person who is reading this now. What is your reaction if I tell you that I know for certain this whole thing is a joke? This whole UFO/Mystery/Abduction/ Greys/Barnie&Betty Hill/Whitley Strieber/Govmt Conspiracy/Crop Circles/ garbage is one big science fiction story. How do you feel? What if I have absolute evidence? Forget your doubting, this is an experiment. I am experimenting with you. Pretend I have the evidence that you believe is true. I can tell you that this is all false and you believe me. How do you feel? I think the reaction to this is simply dissappointment. Many people want this to be true. A lot of people simply want to believe this -- we are being visited and abducted on a regular basis by beings from elsewhere. Why? Obvious reasons I guess. We want to believe there is a higher purpose to life and maybe this is a non-religious way to do it. We want to believe there is more than getting the car gassed up and going to work everyday. But there is one other reason. Some of you need to believe this is true. Some of you need to believe it because you need some way to put what has happened to you in perspective. You need to fit your dreams and terror into some body/forum/group were you can examine it like it wasnt part of you. The people in this latter group could care less about Whiltey Strieber and Crop Circles and channelers and carpetbaggers who want their money. What side are they on? What side are you on? These people are on their own side. Screw the talk about shapes in English cornfields. Who gives a rat's ass about the politics between the UFOologists and the people who want to encroach on their markets.... What about the people? What about the people caught in this s**t? I assure you, for them, this is not funny. This is not an entertaining subject to be bantered around the lunchroom. This is as personal as ones own death. If this is real it is surely the foundation of a lifetime of terror and doubt. I ask you. You know who you are. What side are you on? Tell these bozos what you really think. Do you know what you are seeing? What can you remember? Joe -- Joe Mastroianni AKA: AA6YD AA6YD @ N6LDL.#NOCAL.CA.USA.NA Cadence Design Systems Santa Clara Ca. "Up the airy mountain;down the rushy glen; we jdm@cadence.com daren't go a hunting; for fear of little men " Path: ns-mx!uunet!world!kibo From: kibo@world.std.com (James 'Kibo' Parry) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy Subject: Re: FILE: OH Krill part 4 (Conclusion) Keywords: Warning: Contains humor directed at advertising professionals Message-ID: <1991Aug18.045126.20327@world.std.com> Date: 18 Aug 91 04:51:26 GMT References: <1991Aug9.201944.5348@cadence.com> <1991Aug13.014457.9608@bilver.uucp> <1991Aug18.002816.29471@cadence.com> Organization: Kibo's Home Office (in Boston's Back Bay) Lines: 18 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:1787 alt.conspiracy:6635 In article <1991Aug18.002816.29471@cadence.com> jdm@cadence.com (Joe Mastroianni) writes: > Anyway, a Hugo is a science-fiction story award. The Krill story > could be a big hit as a movie with some big name stars. Actually, a Hugo is not a "story" award--they're given to short stories, novels, movies, etc. (They are science fiction awards, like the Nebulas, but you don't have to be a "story" to get one.) Me, I just collect Clios. I picked up two this year (I would've gotten more, but I only had two hands...) -- Kibo -- ............................................................................. James "Kibo" Parry kibo@world.std.com Independent graphic designer 271 Dartmouth St. #3D and typeface designer. Boston, MA 02116 (617) 262-3922 Path: ns-mx!uunet!crdgw1!ge-dab!tarpit!bilver!dona From: dona@bilver.uucp (Don Allen) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Question On Significant Dates Message-ID: <1991Aug17.035533.25817@bilver.uucp> Date: 17 Aug 91 03:55:33 GMT References: <73434.28A16DED@paranet.FIDONET.ORG> Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL Lines: 68 In article <73434.28A16DED@paranet.FIDONET.ORG> Michael.Corbin@p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Michael Corbin) writes: > > UFO-nut (or average person, for that matter). I'd like to see how *you* > > handle the situation he's (apparently) been put into. > >I would be really interested in what Strieber's story has to say that >convinced you that he was telling the truth? I suspect that he is a lot >smarter than the average person, but that doesn't add to his credibility. I >have heard a lot of stories on the "inside" of things that convince me that >Strieber was making it all up. But why? > > > BTW, it's comments like yours that have led Strieber to label ufologists > > "the cruellest, nastiest and craziest people I have ever encountered." > >He labels ufologists that way because we are smart to his game. After a >lengthy time of trying to get us to accept his crap, he jumps ship. Tell me, >just how concerned is he to leave his devotees high and dry without any >resources to help them with their problems? ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ This seems to be the heart of the matter. This guy has done an about face in just the last year alone. I have heard with my own two ears the "whit" admit on TV interviews a few years back that he is no UFO investigator but yet he comes off on his high horse acting like if HE is the _only_ true grail. This guy is persuing some agenda and it isn't to get to the bottom of the truth. In evaluating Whit's last Communion Newsletter, I noted that he not only blasted UFOlogists, but also this would include his (former) friend Budd Hopkins as well, as he lumps him into the same category of the "blasted and damned". If I *really* wanted to get caustic on Whit...I might remind everyone reading this thread that he IS a horror fiction writer, and for a double bonus..had associated himself with a KNOWN Govt Dis-info agent, William L. Moore. My recommendation to anyone _seriously_ interested in doing research on alien abduction is to get a subscription to UFO MAGAZINE and read Dr Jean Mundy's articles in that magazine. Or Dr Edith Fiore's book "Encounters", or pick up some books from Budd Hopkins. Mike brings up a good point regarding all the people that had depended upon or looked up to Strieber..and since Whit has now ABANDONED them,is this the kind of responsible behaviour of a self-styled "leader" that one should put ANY credibility on? If I had to *choose* between Strieber's "visitors" or Billy Meiers Pleiadians.. I'd pick the Pleiadians..at _least_ they don't abduct people, stick needles in you, and leave your soul to rot in hell. What is the cause of Strieber's change of mind? Gee..I wonder if Bill Moore could be... At least Whit was right about one thing..he is NO investigator..no _credible_ UFOlogist will EVER have anything to do with William L. Moore This adds a new dimension to the "UFO working Group" (ala Howard Blum) Don -- -* Don Allen *- InterNet: dona@bilver.UUCP // Amiga..for the best of us. USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-) UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!vicstoy!dona 0110 0110 0110 Just say NO! Illuminati < MJ-12|Greys|TLC|CFR|FED|Bilderbergs > UN = "New World Order" Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!rpi!crdgw1!ge-dab!tarpit!bilver!dona From: dona@bilver.uucp (Don Allen) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Strieber Keywords: GO Whitley GO! Message-ID: <1991Aug17.044217.26107@bilver.uucp> Date: 17 Aug 91 04:42:17 GMT References: <73434.28A16DED@paranet.FIDONET.ORG> <1KR}6J+@warwick.ac.uk> <8877@vela.acs.oakland.edu> Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL Lines: 104 In article <8877@vela.acs.oakland.edu> dlcogswe@vela.acs.oakland.edu (Dan Cogswell) writes: >csuxr@warwick.ac.uk (Andrew Shires) writes: > >=>I would be really interested in what Strieber's story has to say that >=>convinced you that he was telling the truth? I suspect that he is a lot >=>smarter than the average person, but that doesn't add to his credibility. I >=>have heard a lot of stories on the "inside" of things that convince me that >=>Strieber was making it all up. But why? > >=>He labels ufologists that way because we are smart to his game. After a >=>lengthy time of trying to get us to accept his crap, he jumps ship. Tell me, >=>just how concerned is he to leave his devotees high and dry without any >=>resources to help them with their problems? > >=>Michael Corbin - via FidoNet node 1:104/422 > >>I posted a month or so ago with pretty much the same opinion of Streiber as >>Dan has -- mine based on reading the books, perhaps Dan knows more -- and you >>said then, most emphatically, that Streiber is not considered `credible' by >>UFOlogists. You've re-iterated that you think he's making it up, but you >>still don't say why. Can you tell the net what you think he was up to? >>And what he has done in recent times that consolidate your opinion? > >I second this! Mike, if you don't want to back your opinion with *some* >facts, I don't find you very reasonable. I'll *bet* your main objection >to Strieber is that he takes the position that perhaps the Greys really >AREN'T evil. At least that classification would be too simplistic >according to him. Most material I see you post, Mike, has to do with >aliens as beings who are out to eat us humans. I find that argument >very thin and simplistic. > This is because basically, you have of the nine known alien races visiting this planet, about 95% of the abduction reports are related to the various flavours of Greys. There are some good Greys, but it's marginal in my opinion. The Zeta 1 and Zeta 2 Reticuli Greys have their own agenda, none of which is known to be beneficial. The Greys form of "contact" is akin to the "Fred Flintstone" method..which is to say, that the victims have NO choice in the matter and are just dragged away and the Greys do what they will to the victim irregardless of what the victims wishes are. There's pain involved in most of their contacts. Very few abduction reports have I ever seen where the victims felt "uplifted" or spiritually edified. Examinations are routinely carried out on the luckless humans and the Greys also LIE and tell the victims that they are "looking after their own good", or "we are here to preserve your race"... You should read Dr Edith Fiore's book "Encounters"..this will open your eyes. If you're relying on Whitley Strieber to tell you the "truth", you have been deceived. Sorry to break this to you guys on this thread, but do some research and further study of the abduction cases, and THEN come back and re-evaluate Striebers "work". Read Budd Hopkins books..or books by Leo Sprinkle. In most forced abduction cases, there is a considerable amount of PTSD involved (Post Traumatic Stress Syndrome). For even a _more_ critical look, pick up a copy of "Confrontations" , by Jacques Vallee. This guy is a scientist and does not pull his punches. Basically you are looking at a black and white scenario..the "black" involves the *negative* aspects of contact. This is cattle mutilations, forced abductions, attacks, wild tales of Lizard men (Dracos, Insect creatures, Reptoids) and generally "things" that _could_ be considered demonic in nature and in practice. These beings are NOT beneovolent. On the other end of the spectrum, you have the races from Sirius, Lyra and the Pleiadians. These have not been known to have abducted any human or performed outrageous acts of violence upon their person. A good example would be the Pleiadians associated with the Billy Meier case in Switzerland. The Pleiadian form of contact is gentle and is announced via telepathy before any meeting. The Pleiadians usually have a uplifting message (Semjase). They also look very much like us and certainly not like any weierdness like the greys. It's quite possible that they may even be our elder brothers and sisters. I could NOT say the same for the amoral/unemotional Greys. There is a *world* of difference between the two types of contact. Unfortunately, the Greys don't have a "prime directive" of the sorts like the Pleiadians seem to espouse, so this is why you will see many MORE reports of the negative type. God/Cosmic-centered beings do NOT abduct or terrorize humans. GodLESS Greys have no such compunction. I wish you could view a video tape called "A Strange Harvest" by Linda Moulton Howe. This documents the "high-minded" contact that the Greys and lower alien forms carry out on a routine basis. This is a fact, and their victims are all too frequently littered about the world. I hope you don't take this as a flame, but you really should do some more research. You could start by reading those books I mentioned above. Also, it would benefit you to delve into William L. Moore's association with Paul Bennewitz and how he ruined this mans life for the sake of a GOVT Dis-info program. Then you might have a clue as to motives. Don -- -* Don Allen *- InterNet: dona@bilver.UUCP // Amiga..for the best of us. USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-) UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!vicstoy!dona 0110 0110 0110 Just say NO! Illuminati < MJ-12|Greys|TLC|CFR|FED|Bilderbergs > UN = "New World Order" Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sdd.hp.com!usc!rpi!crdgw1!ge-dab!tarpit!bilver!dona From: dona@bilver.uucp (Don Allen) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Crop Circles / Books? Message-ID: <1991Aug17.031925.25190@bilver.uucp> Date: 17 Aug 91 03:19:25 GMT References: <1991Aug07.153837.24998@aixssc.ibm.co.uk> <55qw02bd0a2J01@JUTS.ccc.amdahl.com> Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL Lines: 56 In article <55qw02bd0a2J01@JUTS.ccc.amdahl.com> dfs30@DUTS.ccc.amdahl.com (Denise Solis) writes: > > Can any one recomend a current book on crop circles? > Preferably one with good airal photos? > > Thanks! > I could recommend a *great* book..it's called "Circular Evidence", written by Pat Delgado and Colin Andrews. It has about 90 pictures (called in the book, plates) of assorted circles and is a good read as well. The authors don't take any particular stands as to what causes the circles, but just provide the pictures and some background on each plate. This is not exactly the kind of book that you could waltz into a B. Dalton or Waldenbooks to find. I went to about 7 bookstores in the Central Fla area and finally located it (twas' the last copy!) at a New Age Bookstore :-) The book itself is a wide type paperback of sorts (about 9" x 7") and has an aerial shot of a crop circle on the front cover. It has 191 pages. If you don't feel like running all over town or waiting for 6 weeks for your local bookseller to locate it, you can order directly from the publisher at: Phanes Press PO Box 6081 Grand Rapids, Michigan 49516 Cover price is $14.95 You will not be disappointed :-) Don > > >-- >========================================================================= > All poetry posted is Copyright protected, anything else is just talk. >Denise Solis - Amdahl Corp. dfs30@DUTS.ccc.amdahl.com >========================================================================= -- -* Don Allen *- InterNet: dona@bilver.UUCP // Amiga..for the best of us. USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-) UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!vicstoy!dona 0110 0110 0110 Just say NO! Illuminati < MJ-12|Greys|TLC|CFR|FED|Bilderbergs > UN = "New World Order" Path: ns-mx!uunet!wupost!m.cs.uiuc.edu!vela!dlcogswe From: dlcogswe@vela.acs.oakland.edu (Dan Cogswell) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Question On Significant Dates Message-ID: <9090@vela.acs.oakland.edu> Date: 18 Aug 91 17:10:49 GMT References: <73434.28A16DED@paranet.FIDONET.ORG> <1991Aug17.035533.25817@bilver.uucp> Organization: Oakland University, Rochester MI. Lines: 9 Re: Don Allen's bashing of Strieber Okay, Don, we've beaten the Strieber horse to death, so let's bring up something else that's related: What exactly has Bill Moore done that has gotten him the label of "dis-info agent"? You mentioned something about him giving false testimony to MUFON? Could you give us the whole story as you know it? -- Dan Cogswell dlcogswe@vela.acs.oakland.edu Mostly H20 and whatever pizza and Diet Pepsi digest into Path: ns-mx!uunet!microsoft!philipla From: philipla@microsoft.UUCP (Philip LAFORNARA) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Yo! Needles/Communion & Shit Message-ID: <74209@microsoft.UUCP> Date: 15 Aug 91 16:38:07 GMT References: Reply-To: philipla@microsoft.UUCP (Philip LAFORNARA) Organization: Microsoft Corp., Redmond WA Lines: 54 In article cs49+@andrew.cmu.edu (Christopher J. Shields) writes: >Whoa! Maybe I'm outta line here but people have been posting stuff that >I just can't agree with... > >1> "Communion" as a movie SUCKED cinematography-wise and somewhat story >wise. Yes it was very much "here's my story, take it or leave it", But >Peter Weller did a really lousy job and I didn't get the ending ( no, > I think it was Christopher Walken in this movie - an excellent actor, but I agree with you - he was awful in an awful film. I should also say that I have read _Communion_, and found it to be disturbing as fiction but somewhat preposterous as non-fiction. Haven't read the second book yet. >2> Strieber had an MRI .....NOT a Cat Scan like people have been saying. >This was reported in a year-old or so issue of OMNI ( I can't remember >the date but I do remember the article ) A white spot showed up on his >MRI around the area of his optic nerve. This could be an alien implant >or it could be an air bubble. In the movie the needle was inserted in >his ear yet in the book it was inserted into his left nostril. The book >makes more sense. Bud Hopkins was quoted as saying in the issue of Omni >that it would be virtually impossible to remove the 2mm implant that >Strieber claims to have. > I'd be much more likely to belive claims of what can or can't be done in the human body from someone who was somewhat better trained in physiology and surgery than Bud Hopkins. It is important to take claims from so-called "experts" with a grain of salt when they are well outside their area of expertise. >3> If space is infinite what the fuck makes us the only/most advanced >intellegence in the universe? NOT! Agreed. How about this, though: If space is infinite, what makes it likely that we will be visited by some of these intelligences. The probability rapidly approaches zero when the volume to be covered approaches infinity. >4> THEY haven't disproved alien intellegence exsists. Well, actually it is _impossible_ to prove that something does not exist. The burden of proof is really on those who claim that these creatures from outer-space are actually visiting us, and no one has even come close to that yet. >c.shields ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Phil Lafornara 1 Microsoft Way philipla@microsoft.com Redmond, WA 98052-6399 Note: Microsoft doesn't even _know_ that these are my opinions. So there. Tpday's Wisdom: I can remember a time when the voices in my head only said what I told them to. Path: ns-mx!uunet!fernwood!cronos!zinfandel!eherrera From: eherrera@zinfandel.metaphor.com (Eric Herrera) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Is Spielberg responsible? Message-ID: <1124@cronos.metaphor.com> Date: 19 Aug 91 02:14:56 GMT Sender: news@cronos.metaphor.com Organization: Metaphor Computer Systems, Mountain View, CA Lines: 18 Originator: eherrera@zinfandel But seriously folks, didn't the Betty/Barney Hill story precede _CEotTK_ by *several* years? If memory serves me, the Hills claimed to have been abducted while on a vacation, driving through the Catskills. They didn't recall the encounter immediately, although they were aware of "lost time." Under hypnosis (separately), they both recounted essentially the same abduction story, greys and all. I think Betty even drew a "star map" for her shrink, verified by astronomers that it was correct from a different (non-Solar) perspective! OK, PLEASE don't tell me that the Hills were revealed as a hoax! I think the Hills' fun took place in the '60s, and I think that and other stories were the inspiration for _CEotTK_ and _ET_. Take THAT, Spielberg! Eric P. Herrera...eherrera@metaphor.com...Metaphor and I have a mutual agreement; I don't speak for them, they don't speak for me. Path: ns-mx!uunet!wupost!m.cs.uiuc.edu!vela!dlcogswe From: dlcogswe@vela.acs.oakland.edu (Dan Cogswell) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Is Spielberg responsible? Message-ID: <9104@vela.acs.oakland.edu> Date: 19 Aug 91 02:28:33 GMT References: <1124@cronos.metaphor.com> Organization: Oakland University, Rochester MI. Lines: 17 In article <1124@cronos.metaphor.com> eherrera@zinfandel.metaphor.com (Eric Herrera) writes: >I think Betty even drew a "star map" for her shrink, verified by >astronomers that it was correct from a different (non-Solar) >perspective! The only problem with that is that given n stars, there is a place in the universe that will make them look like ANY pattern you choose. We're talking about (1) a LOT of stars (the Universe is BIG, really BIG, extraodinarily HUGE to paraphrase Adams :-) and (2) infinite vantage points. Give me a pattern, and given enough time, I'll find a spot in the universe that allows you to see that pattern of stars. NBD. >Eric P. Herrera...eherrera@metaphor.com...Metaphor and I have a -- Dan Cogswell dlcogswe@vela.acs.oakland.edu Mostly H20 and whatever pizza and Diet Pepsi digest into Path: ns-mx!uunet!fernwood!cronos!zinfandel!eherrera From: eherrera@zinfandel.metaphor.com (Eric Herrera) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Is Spielberg responsible? Message-ID: <1129@cronos.metaphor.com> Date: 19 Aug 91 07:30:41 GMT References: <1124@cronos.metaphor.com> <9104@vela.acs.oakland.edu> Sender: news@cronos.metaphor.com Organization: Metaphor Computer Systems, Mountain View, CA Lines: 23 In article <9104@vela.acs.oakland.edu> dlcogswe@vela.acs.oakland.edu (Dan Cogswell) writes: >The only problem with that is that given n stars, there is a place in the >universe that will make them look like ANY pattern you choose. We're talking >about (1) a LOT of stars (the Universe is BIG, really BIG, extraodinarily HUGE >to paraphrase Adams :-) and (2) infinite vantage points. Give me a pattern, >and given enough time, I'll find a spot in the universe that allows you to >see that pattern of stars. NBD. >-- >Dan Cogswell dlcogswe@vela.acs.oakland.edu >Mostly H20 and whatever pizza and Diet Pepsi digest into Accepted, but I guess I digressed there. The point I was trying to make was this: A recent poster wrote that alot of alleged abductees had come forth with their stories suspiciously after _CEotTK_. I felt that if anyone had inspired anyone else, *they* inspired *Spielberg*. -- ...................................................................... ___ : Eric P. Herrera : Metaphor Computer Systems (__ ' . : eherrera@metaphor.com : Mountain View, CA / ,_ , _ :...................................................... (___)/ (_/(_(_, : Metaphor wouldn't want ME to speak for them! (grunt) ...................................................................... Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!samsung!munnari.oz.au!yoyo.aarnet.edu.au!sirius.ucs.adelaide.edu.au!levels!ma913553 From: ma913553@levels.unisa.edu.au Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: the facts anyone? Message-ID: <16618.28a7be26@levels.unisa.edu.au> Date: 13 Aug 91 01:40:21 GMT Organization: University of South Australia Lines: 45 I've been reading this newsgroup since march this year and I'd like to pass comment on a few things that have interested me the most. Serious replies would be fully appreciated. First of all there doesn't seem to have been all that much interest generated by some of Don Allen's postings such as the Tesla Bladeless Turbine engine -it seems to me to real enough, but it makes me wonder if it really is as good as is claimed , then why didn't someone take advantage of it DECADES ago? Anyone know? Now with this Bob Lazar bloke. Judging by the files that have been posted on him, he seems to have a fairly solid case for us to believe he actually worked at Area 51. But what he says about what's inside this place is another matter. Stuff like "there were no physical connections between the components of the propulsion system" (not a direct quote) , makes it sound even more unbelievable. Also , wouldn't a super-heavy element with atomic number of 115 be too unstable (even though at atomic no. 114 (I think) an electron shell would be filled -therefore making it more stable) to use as a "fuel"? *-The interview Don posted (with Lazar) was recorded back in late '89, so I'm wondering what's he said/done since? Also in that interview Lazar said he would give Bill Goodman some figures (such as the resonant frequency for a gravity wave) , which he couldn't remember at the time. Did anyone hear these announcements from Bill? Glenn University of South Australia. Path: ns-mx!uunet!mcsun!ukc!warwick!csuxr From: csuxr@warwick.ac.uk (Andrew Shires) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Strieber Message-ID: Date: 19 Aug 91 18:58:04 GMT References: <1KR}6J+@warwick.ac.uk> <8877@vela.acs.oakland.edu> <1991Aug17.044217.26107@bilver.uucp> Sender: news@warwick.ac.uk (Network news) Organization: Computing Services, Warwick University, UK Lines: 42 Nntp-Posting-Host: lily Don's post assumes that Dan Cogswell and I _believe_ what Strieber says to be the truth. This is not at all what we are suggesting, perhaps you ought to do _your_ research on this thread. Our argument (and I have tried to let this lie recently, but I will have to clarify it here) is that Michael Corbin cannot simply expect us to believe that Strieber is undoubtedly a liar, without presenting any evidence to us on this matter. Mike has declared that he cannot discuss what he knows publicly. This is fair enough. What we are _not_ saying is that we believe that what Strieber says happened to him actually did happen. >Sorry to break this to you guys on this thread, but do some research and >further study of the abduction cases, and THEN come back Give us a break, Don. We both have declared we are not authorities on the matter (not to say that we haven't read around, either). We are having a simple discussion about presenting evidence. >In most forced abduction cases, there is a >considerable amount of PTSD involved (Post Traumatic Stress Syndrome). And Strieber makes out this doesn't happen? >For even a _more_ critical look, pick up a copy of "Confrontations" , >by Jacques Vallee. This guy is a scientist and does not pull his punches. I'm actually looking around for this book at the moment. [deleted, stuff that shows Don believes in the Greys and how bad they are] >I hope you don't take this as a flame, but you really should do some >more research. Not if research entails believing everything I read. This post is also genuinely not meant to be a flame, but I feel you have just jumped into the discussion without realising what is being discussed, with your guns of condescension blazing. Sorry. >Don Andrew Shires Path: ns-mx!uunet!mcsun!ukc!warwick!csuxr From: csuxr@warwick.ac.uk (Andrew Shires) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Question On Significant Dates Message-ID: <4+Z}JK|@warwick.ac.uk> Date: 19 Aug 91 19:14:10 GMT References: <73434.28A16DED@paranet.FIDONET.ORG> <1991Aug17.035533.25817@bilver.uucp> Sender: news@warwick.ac.uk (Network news) Organization: Computing Services, Warwick University, UK Lines: 43 Nntp-Posting-Host: lily In article <1991Aug17.035533.25817@bilver.uucp> dona@bilver.uucp (Don Allen) writes: >If I *really* wanted to get caustic on Whit...I might remind everyone >reading this thread that he IS a horror fiction writer, and for a double >bonus..had associated himself with a KNOWN Govt Dis-info agent, William >L. Moore. How is the latter known? Can you present any documentation to me? And we have discussed the former adequately, re-read the thread. Re Budd Hopkins, he seems to believe some pretty incredible stuff himself. >Mike brings up a good point regarding all the people that had depended >upon or looked up to Strieber..and since Whit has now ABANDONED them,is >this the kind of responsible behaviour of a self-styled "leader" that >one should put ANY credibility on? This point, whilst serving the purpose of assassinating Strieber's character (for whatever reasons), does not rule out the possible truth of his experiences. Is abducting good leaders part of the Grey's agenda (that you claim to know quite well, it would seem)? Or could it be that the post-abduction trauma that Strieber experiences was putting too much pressure on him and he packed it in? Whatever the truth of all this, the observation that Strieber has abandoned his flock has no immediate bearing on the quality of his story. >If I had to *choose* between Strieber's "visitors" or Billy Meiers >Pleiadians.. >I'd pick the Pleiadians..at _least_ they don't abduct people, stick needles >in you, and leave your soul to rot in hell. What criteria for belief! You're not serious? >At least Whit was right about one thing..he is NO investigator..no _credible_ >UFOlogist will EVER have anything to do with William L. Moore > >This adds a new dimension to the "UFO working Group" (ala Howard Blum) Whatever. Where do we find out about this? >Don Andrew Path: ns-mx!uunet!wupost!m.cs.uiuc.edu!vela!dlcogswe From: dlcogswe@vela.acs.oakland.edu (Dan Cogswell) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Strieber Message-ID: <9127@vela.acs.oakland.edu> Date: 19 Aug 91 20:23:01 GMT References: <1KR}6J+@warwick.ac.uk> <8877@vela.acs.oakland.edu> <1991Aug17.044217.26107@bilver.uucp> Organization: Oakland University, Rochester MI. Lines: 37 csuxr@warwick.ac.uk (Andrew Shires) writes: >Don's post assumes that Dan Cogswell and I _believe_ what Strieber says to be >the truth. This is not at all what we are suggesting, perhaps you ought to do >_your_ research on this thread. Our argument (and I have tried to let this >lie recently, but I will have to clarify it here) is that Michael Corbin >cannot simply expect us to believe that Strieber is undoubtedly a liar, >without presenting any evidence to us on this matter. Mike has declared that >he cannot discuss what he knows publicly. This is fair enough. >What we are _not_ saying is that we believe that what Strieber says >happened to him actually did happen. Agreed. I'd also like to add that in an area where nobody really knows what's going on, it's just as likely that Strieber is correct as anyone else. Now, you can question his validity if you can point to a single (or more) instance in which he simply goes beyond the realm of "normal" abduction cases. The fact that he tells his story well is not a strike against him, in my opinion. Further, Andrew and I have stated that we've formed our opinions of him based on his writings (_Communion_ and _Transformation_) as opposed to his actions as of late. Don Allen himself said he's taken an "about face" in the last year or so and seems to be persuing his own agenda. The books were written several years ago and don't seem to have any "agenda" associated with them, except to tell his story. Whether he's the same man now as he was when he wrote the books is a good question. We should change this topic to dealing with the information in his two non-fiction books. Is that material real or not? Maybe analyzing the character of Strieber won't bring us to a conclusion. What I really want to know is if abductions and dealings with Greys is really the way he says it is. I don't care if he's a bum, etc.. >Andrew Shires -- Dan Cogswell dlcogswe@vela.acs.oakland.edu Mostly H20 and whatever pizza and Diet Pepsi digest into Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!wupost!uwm.edu!linac!att!cbnewse!harryo From: harryo@cbnewse.cb.att.com (harold.r.holm) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Who's seen a 'Grey' ? Keywords: anyone in this newsgroup? Message-ID: <1991Aug20.054043.20345@cbnewse.cb.att.com> Date: 20 Aug 91 05:40:43 GMT Distribution: na Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories Lines: 18 With all I've read in this newsgroup since I latched on to it a few months ago, I'm interested....who among the posters/readers would actually SAY they've encountered one of these 'Grey' creatures? Mr. Allen, perhaps?? Seems to me I did read of one poster a few weeks ago claiming something along these lines, and that it would not be a pleasant experience to look forward to. But does anyone else allege to have "first-hand" testimony?? And by the way (especially for Mr. Allen)....would these "things", if they exist, be aware of communications such as this bulletin board/newsgroup????....and who is utilizing it??? Seems to me any "sufficiently advanced beings" would be tapped in all over networks like this. H.R. Holm *standard disclaimers, comment solely my own, etc.* . Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!swrinde!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!wvus!abode!iotm!jtb From: jtb@iotm.ttank.com (John P. Gibbons) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: ALIENS: THE BIG _LIE_ !!! Message-ID: Date: 20 Aug 91 12:22:37 GMT References: <7608@ns-mx.uiowa.edu> Organization: IotM Information Systems Inc. Lines: 45 In article <7608@ns-mx.uiowa.edu> zharman@umaxc.weeg.uiowa.edu (Zachary Harman) writes: >It's about time that the UFO community wakes up and realizes that the >whole Aliens thing is a big LIE. The government to my knowledge never said there were any aliens... Only the UFOlogy crowd.. > >It all goes like this (Listen up, you government agents!) [Bunch of stuff about nazi foo-fighters etc, deleted] > >THERE.....ARE.....NO.....ALIENS....... > >I Repeat... > >THERE.....ARE.....NO.....ALIENS....... > >It's time to get the truth out in the open. How about some evidence? At LEAST the aliens are real supporters TRY to give some evidence.. You did nothing more then post a message.. Anyone could do that.. Lets see some evidence.. I don't even want proof, just SOMETHING. If you can't do that then you are no better than JOHNF (or whatever his name is). > >Get ready for something big really soon, folks. > >Just remember what I told you. > Haven't I heard this somewhere before? :-) > > >-Zachary Harman > John -- // John P. Gibbons uucp: ..!uunet!iotm.ttank.com!jtb \X/ La Habra, Ca Internet: jtb@iotm.ttank.com "Once I had a dream, that worried me, like a drunken guillotine, lingering, just above my head." -- Cat Stevens Path: ns-mx!uunet!cadence!jdm From: jdm@cadence.com (Joe Mastroianni) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Who's seen a 'Grey' ? Keywords: anyone in this newsgroup? Message-ID: <1991Aug20.170736.25934@cadence.com> Date: 20 Aug 91 17:07:36 GMT References: <1991Aug20.054043.20345@cbnewse.cb.att.com> Distribution: na Organization: Cadence Design Systems, Inc. Lines: 48 Id be extremely skeptical of anyone who claimed to see one of these "people". First of all, admitting that you thought you saw one would be tantamount to admitting insanity or lying. Second, I think that an overriding factor in such an experience, if we are to believe the evidence already presented, is that you would a) Not remember the experience b) As the experience would fall so completely outside the realm of normal existence, you would not believe it was "real" Maybe hypnosis helps here. Although, maybe all hypnosis does is to help you believe your fantasies are real. Joe In article <1991Aug20.054043.20345@cbnewse.cb.att.com> harryo@cbnewse.cb.att.com (harold.r.holm) writes: >With all I've read in this newsgroup since I latched on to it a >few months ago, I'm interested....who among the posters/readers >would actually SAY they've encountered one of these 'Grey' creatures? >Mr. Allen, perhaps?? Seems to me I did read of one poster a few >weeks ago claiming something along these lines, and that it would >not be a pleasant experience to look forward to. But does anyone >else allege to have "first-hand" testimony?? > >And by the way (especially for Mr. Allen)....would these "things", >if they exist, be aware of communications such as this bulletin >board/newsgroup????....and who is utilizing it??? Seems to me any >"sufficiently advanced beings" would be tapped in all over networks > like this. > >H.R. Holm > >*standard disclaimers, comment solely my own, etc.* >. -- Joe Mastroianni AKA: AA6YD AA6YD @ N6LDL.#NOCAL.CA.USA.NA Cadence Design Systems Santa Clara Ca. "Up the airy mountain;down the rushy glen; we jdm@cadence.com daren't go a hunting; for fear of little men " Path: ns-mx!uunet!crdgw1!ge-dab!tarpit!bilver!dona From: dona@bilver.uucp (Don Allen) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy Subject: Re: FILE: OH Krill part 4 (Conclusion) Message-ID: <1991Aug20.041902.19177@bilver.uucp> Date: 20 Aug 91 04:19:02 GMT References: <1991Aug9.201944.5348@cadence.com> <1991Aug13.014457.9608@bilver.uucp> <9015@vela.acs.oakland.edu> Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL Lines: 89 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:1804 alt.conspiracy:6652 In article <9015@vela.acs.oakland.edu> dlcogswe@vela.acs.oakland.edu (Dan Cogswell) writes: >dona@bilver.uucp (Don Allen) writes: > >>And as for Bill Cooper...(heheh)...welll...that's another story altogether. > >Don, > >Can you speculate on Cooper's motives in presenting such wild >information? Is it strictly money? I mean, some things he says are >just simply ridiculous! > Can you say, "Rake in the bucks"? SURE you can..I knew you could :-) Among Bill Cooper's mutiples of problems..(I'm trying to word this carefully so I don't get sued :-) Cooper likes to beat his own drum real loudly. He also has been dishonest, in my opinion, as to where he "appropriates" his sources. Point of fact, I *could* upload all my extant collection of Cooper text to alt.alien.vis* and let you folks see how many times you catch him changing his story :-) Point of fact: When Cooper first hit Paranet a few years ago, he came on like gangbusters..He *sounded* like a first class whistleblower and highly credible person with a solid record. We have since discovered that a good deal of what he claims as his "solid record" is vaporware :-) Don Ecker did a *wonderful* expose' on Cooper a couple of years ago in his 2 part series in UFO MAGAZINE, called "The Whistleblowers". Hmmm// ..I said coupla years ago..It was last summer in fact, right after Timmy Bennett, a fanatic "Cooperite" uploaded one of Cooper's LONG ravings upon the national UFO echo called "FIDO UFO"..This is when it hit the fan :-) I *really* feel sorry for people who attend one of Cooper's lectures around the country. They are been paid a dis-service in my opinion. Cooper makes WILD claims..this is why we call him "Wild Bill".. To make a long story short, Cooper was thrown OFF the Paranet echo. Why? Because, as time went by, and Cooper "changed" his story, people began to get not only skeptical, but downright suspicious. It seemed there for awhile, that Cooper was changing his story every week..When people on the PN echo began to voice questions..Cooper got real HOSTILE and started up his ad homenim attacks. He accussed more than a few people of being "Govt agents". It wasn't like that Paranet didn't give him a chance or failed to give him warning..they did. It got SO bad after awhile, that people just got FED UP with Bill Cooper's attacks on people whose "crime" merely consisted of just asking questions and "who or what is your source" type requests. At this point, he got bounced off the echo permanently. It was for valid reasons. I was a lurker on PN at this time for some months before I began to post so I watched the whole sordid episode. Admittedly, I'm an *avid* Cooper basher..anyone that knows me on the other UFO echoes can verify this :-) If Mike Corbin spots this thread here, I'm sure he can add some more specific details... I just met Bill English in person this past weekend and spent a good deal of time with him..at one time, English and Cooper *were* good friends until English discovered what Cooper's _true_ motives were. English has _alot_ of things to say about Cooper and NONE of them are good :-) If Bill Cooper *really* wanted to get some good work done, he needs to clean up HIS act and stop shooting himself in the foot everytime he opens his mouth. Calling people who disagree with him, "Govt Agents" and slandering people by his personal attacks just will NOT cut it. Is Cooper's data valid? Read some of it and realize that you may be reading _others_ research and not necessarily his (as he's fond of saying that it's *his* work). Personally, and in my opinion, I would take Cooper's words with a 20 lb salt block :-) Don -- -* Don Allen *- InterNet: dona@bilver.UUCP // Amiga..for the best of us. USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-) UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!vicstoy!dona 0110 0110 0110 Just say NO! Illuminati < MJ-12|Greys|TLC|CFR|FED|Bilderbergs > UN = "New World Order" Path: ns-mx!uunet!spool.mu.edu!news.cs.indiana.edu!arizona.edu!arizona!noao!amethyst!catalina!marc From: marc@catalina.opt-sci.arizona.edu (Marc Sabb) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Hanger 19 and Roswell incident Message-ID: <3066@amethyst.math.arizona.edu> Date: 20 Aug 91 22:53:53 GMT References: <1991Jul25.142225.32301@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu> Sender: news@amethyst.math.arizona.edu Organization: Optical Sciences Center, Tucson, AZ Lines: 22 >In article steve@ram.prpa.philips.com (Steven J. Kudlak) writes: >> >>Speaking of weird things. Has anyone gone to Dulce or Lindreth(sp?) >>New Mexico to look for the putative secret UFO bases under those >>Mesas? Did anyone find anything interesting? If some kind soul would post directions to the spot in question I'd be happy to check it out since I go through N.M. often and like to hike anyway. I'm not interested in spending my money on UFO books so give me as much detail as possible. I'll probably go through there within the next 3-4 months, definately will during ski season. Do aliens ski? Oh oh, what about security? I'm a physicist who grew up in the streets of Detroit, I'll find a way ;} -- Marc Sabb INTERNET: marc@catalina.opt-sci.arizona.edu Optical Sciences Center VOICE:(602)-621-4099 University of Arizona Disclaimer:None Tucson, Arizona, USA 85721 Not opinions,observations! Path: ns-mx!uunet!crdgw1!ge-dab!tarpit!bilver!dona From: dona@bilver.uucp (Don Allen) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Is Spielberg responsible? Message-ID: <1991Aug20.042748.19325@bilver.uucp> Date: 20 Aug 91 04:27:48 GMT References: <1124@cronos.metaphor.com> Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL Lines: 35 In article <1124@cronos.metaphor.com> eherrera@zinfandel.metaphor.com (Eric Herrera) writes: >But seriously folks, didn't the Betty/Barney Hill story precede >_CEotTK_ by *several* years? If memory serves me, the Hills claimed >to have been abducted while on a vacation, driving through the >Catskills. They didn't recall the encounter immediately, although >they were aware of "lost time." Under hypnosis (separately), they >both recounted essentially the same abduction story, greys and all. >I think Betty even drew a "star map" for her shrink, verified by >astronomers that it was correct from a different (non-Solar) >perspective! > >OK, PLEASE don't tell me that the Hills were revealed as a hoax! > >I think the Hills' fun took place in the '60s, and I think that and >other stories were the inspiration for _CEotTK_ and _ET_. Take >THAT, Spielberg! > >Eric P. Herrera...eherrera@metaphor.com...Metaphor and I have a >mutual agreement; I don't speak for them, they don't speak for me. Betty and Barney Hill's abduction experience was included in the Stanton Friedman video "UFO's are Real". Actually, Betty made a sketch of the star system and that was later expanded upon by Majorie Fish, who correlated it to the Zeta Reticuli start system by some months of effort. It still remains a interesting case, even though it was "ages ago". Don -- -* Don Allen *- InterNet: dona@bilver.UUCP // Amiga..for the best of us. USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-) UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!vicstoy!dona 0110 0110 0110 Just say NO! Illuminati < MJ-12|Greys|TLC|CFR|FED|Bilderbergs > UN = "New World Order" Path: ns-mx!uunet!bonnie.concordia.ca!ccu.umanitoba.ca!herald.usask.ca!alberta!brazeau.ucs.ualberta.ca!unixg.ubc.ca!ubc-cs!mprgate.mpr.ca!mprgate.mpr.ca!spani From: spani@mprgate.mpr.ca (Leonard Spani) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Suggested reading material Message-ID: <1991Aug21.015822.5961@mprgate.mpr.ca> Date: 21 Aug 91 01:58:22 GMT Sender: news@mprgate.mpr.ca Followup-To: alt.alien.visitors Organization: MPR Teltech Ltd., Burnaby, B.C., Canada Lines: 344 Since people have been asking for suggested reading material lately, I thought I would take the time to post a list of 15 books that I have read and found to be useful. All of the books are currently available in most bookstores and libraries. Since I'm recommending books (remember, libraries are free) I should mention my biases. Missing from my list are books on "New Age Channeling" and "Debunking". I have built up a personal bias against this kind of material over the years because I find it unfalsifiable, dogmatic, and it just plain irritates me. Obviously I can't recommend this kind of material. If someone else is into this stuff perhaps they can post a few good books. Also missing is some good old-fashioned skepticism (rather than debunking). I have read a few books of this sort, but I don't *own* any worth recommending and I don't have time to go to the library for the purposes of this post. (My memory isn't good enough to just "wing" it :^), maybe someone would be good enough to recommend a few books of this sort as well. I tried to be as objective as possible regarding the contents of the books, but didn't take the time necessary to do it right. In other words, consider ALL of it as opinion. Leonard. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "Above Top Secret - The World Wide UFO Cover Up" 1989; Timothy Good (647 pages) - chronological UFO case histories 1933 to 1988 - information on government agencies involvement in UFOs - information from Great Britain, around the world, and the USA. I found this book to be an excellent reference text. The cases are extensive and well covered, but it does tend to be kind of dry reading. The Bentwaters case (soon to be recreated for the season's premiere of "Unsolved Mysteries") is covered here among many others. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "Alien Liaison - The Ultimate Secret" 1991; Timothy Good (242 pages) - cases, mutilations, updates and recent material - project Aquarius, MJ-12 - Dreamland, Groom Lake, Area-51, S-4, Robert Lazar - "Cosmic Journey": the joint Ringling Brothers and Barnum and Bailey International / NASA touring space exhibit that allegedly was to include a *real* captured saucer and frozen alien. It was cancelled (or delayed). - hints at an upcoming release of government information about UFOs. This contains a lot of new material that I had not seen in other books. It is less of a reference text than "Above Top Secret", and is more entertaining. The material is more of a sensational nature, but he names names and it appears to have been well researched. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "The UFO Casebook" 1989; Kevin D. Randle (256 pages) - chronological UFO case histories 1947 to 1988 - explanations of some classic cases that are still reported as "true" today but have long since been dismissed by researchers. Not as extensive as "Above Top Secret", but perhaps it is laid out a little better, and therefore easier to read. Both books together are somewhat redundant, but a serious researcher might want to read both to see how each author handles the same material. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "UFO Crash at Roswell" 1991; Kevin D. Randle & Donald R. Schmitt (327 pages) - updates the Roswell material with new information / witnesses - corrects mistakes in the Berlitz/Moore Roswell book - provides a time line of the events at Roswell - appendices, glossary, index etc.. I think that the authors have done a good job of researching the Roswell crash. The material is well presented and backed up, but the re-telling of the facts from 3 or 4 different perspectives does get a bit monotonous. This book corrects some of the mistakes that have been reported about Roswell in a number of other books and provides a lot of new material. The question of what "crashed" near Roswell is raised again and again in UFO discussions, and it is nearly impossible to say anything about Roswell without getting somebody upset. Personally, I can draw no firm conclusions about the subject for many reasons, but I feel that in order to discuss (or argue) about Roswell, you really should have read *this* book. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "Night Siege - The Hudson Valley UFO Sightings" 1987; Dr J. Allen Hynek, Philip J. Imbrogno, Bob Pratt (207 pages) - documents the Hudson Valley UFO wave from 1982 to 1986 The Hudson Valley sightings were quite impressive; multiple witnesses, repeat appearances, and interesting objects (boomerang and many other apparent shapes). The descriptions of the objects were very similar to the ones seen in Belgium recently. The book documents the sightings as well as the possible explanations presented for them (e.g. ultralight aircraft, secret US planes, alien space craft, etc..) and the problems associated with each possibility. The book does not contain much sensational strangeness material, apparently at the request of Dr. Hynek who thought it would lower the credibility of the book and was outside the scope of the current research, but the book hints that there was such things happening. I think Whitley Strieber's cabin is in or near the Hudson Valley. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "The Gulf Breeze Sightings" 1990; Ed Walters & Frances Walters (368 pages) - the first-hand UFO experiences of Ed Walters - many pictures - MUFON investigation, photo-analysis, media reactions - hints that abductions may have taken place, but does not go into details (no hypnosis session material) Ed Walters Gulf Breeze UFO experiences are another subject that seems to get people upset when it is brought up. I have heard allegations that he has been proven a fraud (in regards to the *UFO* material), but I haven't *seen* any proof myself. If anyone has such proof I would appreciate them posting it. All I *really* know about Ed Walters is from *his* book. I found it to be consistent, he seems to be honest in what he writes, and the photographic evidence is abundant. In addition to his UFO experiences, he also writes about the media, the reactions from the UFO community, and the "attacks" from the debunkers. I thought it was worth reading, and I believe that this there is a great deal of material that can't simply be written off. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "Communion - A True Story" 1988; Whitley Strieber (306 pages) - the personal experiences of an abduction victim - a high strangeness case - hypnotic regression - personal theories as to the meaning of the experiences and as to who the "visitors" *may* be (and may not be) "Transformation - The Breakthrough" 1989; Whitley Strieber (276 pages) - a continuation of Communion material - more high strangeness material - old material not released in Communion - new material that occurred after Communion's release - reactions to Communion from the media and UFO researchers, - results of medical/psychological tests and lie detector examinations - a continuation/new version of Strieber's personal theories I found it refreshing to read personal abduction experiences written by a *professional* writer who knows how to express himself and convey the fear he felt to his audience. He is a professional writer of horror material (e.g. "The Wolfen, "The Hunger") and is able to involve the reader in a way that most UFO investigators can't do. He swears that the events that he describes really happened to him and that he presents them as he experienced them. He has taken lie detector tests, had MRI scans, and undergone psychological examinations but can offer no universally acceptable proof of what happened to him. After reading his books I came out with the impression that Strieber was telling the truth. I believe that he was not lying. *Something* happened to him that was frightening and very strange. As far as what that something was, I'm not sure. I don't necessarily agree with Strieber's own *personal* theories which are close to Vallee's and favour a not-necessarily-extraterrestrial cause. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "Report on Communion - The Facts Behind the Most Controversial True Story of Our Time" 1990; Ed Conroy (424 pages) - analysis of Strieber, his career, childhood, and "visitor" experiences - "Communion" (the book and the movie) and "Transformation" - reactions from the media, other investigators, etc.. - opinions about Strieber and his experiences from others in the field (e.g. P. Klass) - comparisons of Strieber's experiences and theories with the work of Jung, Vallee, and others More material for those people who want more information on Strieber and his experiences. I found it helpful in analyzing his books and his motives. There has been a lot of "Strieber bashing" on the net lately, and I have seen allegations that he is "not what he seems". If anyone has any proof of such allegations I would appreciate them posting it. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "Missing Time" 1981; Budd Hopkins (255 pages) - abduction case studies (investigated by Hopkins) - hypnotic regression - high strangeness, but more physical than meta-physical "Intruders - The Incredible Visitations at Copley Woods" 1987; Budd Hopkins (318 pages) - focuses primarily on the "Kathie Davis" case - lots of material recovered through hypnotic regression - a continuation of the "Missing Time" material - uncomfortable hypothesis A must-read for the "little-grey-emotionless-buggers-who-want-to-use- your-genetic-material-and-reproductive-abilities" hypothesis. I have read a lot of attacks on Budd Hopkins's investigative technique, and would agree with some of it, but I found the material in these books to be well laid out and certainly interesting. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "Dimensions - A Casebook of Alien Contact" 1988; Jacques Vallee (304 pages) - ancient to contemporary history of "UFOs" and "aliens" - cultural analysis of how alien imagery relates to ancient myths and legends - faeries, angels, demons, the gentry, gnomes, etc... - *non*-extraterrestrial possibilities - other dimensions, psychological, etc... "Confrontations - A Scientist's Search for Alien Contact" 1990; Jacques Vallee (241 pages) - case studies - *lethal* encounters, Brazil, Chupas - investigative techniques, evidence analysis, a classification scheme - a condemnation for "other investigators" techniques such as hypnosis - a continuation of the material developed in "Dimensions" and other Vallee books. Jacques Vallee is somewhat of an outcast in the extraterrestrial hypothesis dominated UFO field, but his not-necessarily ET ideas and back-to-basics investigative techniques are becoming more popular lately. His ideas are somewhat strange, but people like Whitely Strieber have expressed that they favour his ideas more than the "standard" nuts 'n bolts UFO/abduction theories. I liked his books and his attitude, and some aspects of his theories. It was also nice to read a book by someone who takes a serious look at material from *before* 1947. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "The Watchers - The Secret Design Behind UFO Abduction" 1990; Raymond E. Fowler (386 pages) - case study of Betty Luca (formally Betty Andreasson) - Betty's abduction experiences from 1973 to 1988 were previously "blocked" from hypnotic recall. They became "available" in the mid to late 80's and this book is the result. - recaps some of the material from "The Andreasson Affair" and "The Andreasson Affair - Phase 2" (by the same author) for the benefit of those not familiar with the Andreasson material. - "unfiltered" hypnotic regressions - results of Raymond E. Fowlers own hypnotic regression sessions - very high strangeness material Betty (Andreasson) Luca's name pops up all over the place in UFO literature. This book fills in some of the material from the past, and presents new material. The hypnotic regression sessions were largely uncensored by the author, and came out really weird. There is a lot of stuff in this book that will stretch your credulity about as far as it can go, but it is entertaining and thought provoking. I found the part of the book where Fowler himself gets hypnotized to explore his possible experiences to be a bit annoying but other people might not share that feeling. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "Encounters - A Psychologist Reveals Case Studies of Abductions by Extraterrestrials" 1989; Dr Edith Fiore, PH.D. (276 pages) - 13 case studies of abduction victims - hypnotic regression - do-it-yourself hypnotic regression, how to find out if you have been abducted - does NOT attempt to provide any evidence or pretend to be an investigative work (and could not be used as such) I debated with myself whether or not to include this book in my list, but since I have seen people discussing Dr. Fiore's books on the net I will include it. First of all, I recommend that you do NOT read this book unless you have already read a fair amount of the other material. I consider it as a good example of *bad* research (e.g. leading questions in hypnosis, sensationalizing and exploiting victims.) Debunkers could have a field day with this book. I feel that her suggestion that readers use a mild form of self-hypnosis to see if they too are abduction victims is horrendously dangerous and unethical. The "hypnosis" she suggests is the "relaxation-and-yes/no-questions-with-a-pendulum" type which is fairly safe but still could lead to problems. To be fair to Dr Fiore, she states that her goal is not to provide accurate, provable evidence, but rather to help her patients overcome the problems that the repressed memories are causing them. To be unfair to Dr. Fiore, I get the impression that she would attribute just about any neurosis to extraterrestrial abduction. She has also written books on spirit possession and reincarnation (which I have not read.) I found the book was a useful reference for the "me-too", sensational, exploitive techniques that I have heard people like Jacques Vallee complain about. That is *my* opinion. The actual case material is *interesting* however, and her chapter titles are hilarious. My favorites are chapter 2: "They Put Something in My Rectum" and chapter 17: "... The Evidence Can No Longer Be Squelched". ------------------------------------------------------------------------ -- *********************************************************************** | Leonard E. Spani | //!?\\ | (disclaimer-p) | | spani@tartarus.mpr.ca | \\?!// | t | *********************************************************************** Path: ns-mx!uunet!wang!news From: warren@worlds.com (Warren Burstein) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal,sci.skeptic Subject: Re: Greeting Message-ID: Date: 19 Aug 91 19:16:43 GMT References: <45587@cup.portal.com> Sender: news@wang.com Followup-To: alt.alien.visitors Organization: WorldWide Software Lines: 16 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:1808 alt.paranormal:2565 sci.skeptic:13883 Don_A_Showen@cup.portal.com writes: >I will not be permitted to post from my old account but will hope to return >on this or another computer in less than 15 days. Since all life is One (actually 0.975, correcting for vibrational frequency), why should it be surprising that John posts from Don's account? Are they the same person? Is one channeling the other? Who cares, so long as the entertainment continues. I'll leave you without this saying: -- /|/-\/-\ The entire world Jerusalem |__/__/_/ is a very strange carrot |warren@ But the farmer / worlds.COM is not worried at all. Path: ns-mx!uunet!cbmvax!amix!vanth!jms From: jms@vanth.UUCP (Jim Shaffer) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: FILE: OH Krill part 2 Message-ID: Date: 19 Aug 91 04:05:45 GMT References: Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence Lines: 21 In article max@darkside.com (Max Pandaemonium) writes: > >In summary: fullerene combinations can make superconductors, but they >aren't at anywhere near room temperatures presently. Newspapers and the >general media tend to confuse scientific findings considerably . . . Well, I said *attempting* to produce high-temperature superconductors. I just thought I'd throw the idea out as a response to the claim that someone has data on the material flying saucers are made out of. By the way, there's a user on KeelyNet who apparently has a patent on some method of electromagnetically treating metals so as to radically change their properties. Such as making aluminum hard enough to break a Rockwell hardness tester... The free energy researcher, Moray, also is said to have discovered such a process. -- * From the disk of: |****** NOTE NEW ADDRESSES ******| We're only immortal Jim Shaffer, Jr. |* uunet!snark!vanth!jms *| for a limited time. 37 Brook Street |**jms%vanth@snark.thyrsus.com***| Montgomery, PA 17752 | 72750.2335@compuserve.com | (Rush, "Dreamline") Path: ns-mx!uunet!world!kibo From: kibo@world.std.com (James 'Kibo' Parry) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: FILE: OH Krill part 2 Message-ID: <1991Aug21.063007.1961@world.std.com> Date: 21 Aug 91 06:30:07 GMT References: Organization: Kibo's Home Office (in Boston's Back Bay) Lines: 30 In article jms@vanth.UUCP (Jim Shaffer) writes: >By the way, there's a user on KeelyNet who apparently has a patent on some >method of electromagnetically treating metals so as to radically change >their properties. Such as making aluminum hard enough to break a Rockwell >hardness tester... The free energy researcher, Moray, also is said to have >discovered such a process. Of course, having a patent is not the same as having invented something that works. For instance, the Hieronymous machine has a patent (2,482,773). (A piece of plastic connected to a randomly-assembled bunch of electronic junk feels sticky when the machine is pointed at anything you're looking for.) The Dean drive has a patent. (2,886,976) (It's a box containing a solenoid that jerks up and down violently--the machine is supposed to lift itself into the air. Very clueless inventor there.) One Socrates Schofield patented a pair of linked springs that ''prove'' the existence of God. (1,087,186) -- Kibo (not patented, but a trademark) -- ............................................................................. James "Kibo" Parry kibo@world.std.com Independent graphic designer 271 Dartmouth St. #3D (specialty: logos & corporate Boston, MA 02116 (617) 262-3922 identities) and type designer. Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!hellgate.utah.edu!csn!scicom!paranet!p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG!Michael.Corbin From: Michael.Corbin@p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Michael Corbin) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Oh Krill Message-ID: <74108.28B171AC@paranet.FIDONET.ORG> Date: 20 Aug 91 18:48:00 GMT Sender: ufgate@paranet.FIDONET.ORG (newsout1.26) Organization: FidoNet node 1:104/428.0 - ParaNet(sm) A, Arvada CO Lines: 27 > From: jms@vanth.UUCP (Jim Shaffer) > Date: 15 Aug 91 03:29:39 GMT > Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence > Message-ID: > Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors > Don Allen recently posted something from the Fido UFO echo indicating > that > Bennewitz was still involved with the Dulce scenario and was still > saying > much the same thing as he did before his breakdown. Do you know > anything > about this? I had previously assumed that he wasn't involved in UFOlogy > any more. Bennewitz is back in swing in a limited capacity. As I understand, he is not dealing with too many people, although he has been in contact with some, including Linda Howe. Mike -- Michael Corbin - via FidoNet node 1:104/422 UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name INTERNET: Michael.Corbin@p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!hellgate.utah.edu!csn!scicom!paranet!p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG!Michael.Corbin From: Michael.Corbin@p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Michael Corbin) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Communion Question Message-ID: <74109.28B171AE@paranet.FIDONET.ORG> Date: 20 Aug 91 18:54:00 GMT Sender: ufgate@paranet.FIDONET.ORG (newsout1.26) Organization: FidoNet node 1:104/428.0 - ParaNet(sm) A, Arvada CO Lines: 37 > From: dona@bilver.uucp (Don Allen) > Date: 13 Aug 91 02:28:22 GMT > Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL > Message-ID: <1991Aug13.022822.10504@bilver.uucp> > Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors > If you want a _better_ work to study abduction phenomena, I would > recommend Dr Edith Fiore's books on her case studies of abduction > victims. It would save you from all the BS of wading through Strieber's > "work". One of her better known books is called "Encounters" and is > a good book, in my opinion. Permit me to jump in here Don... Even Edith Fiore is stretching it a bit for abduction research. I would also recommend that interested parties make inquiry with CUFOS as to some of the journals that they have posted on the abduction phenomenon. Eddie Bullard has some excellent articles on this. Finally, I read the "Farewell Communion" crap. What a load! Strieber is definitely not working for the interests of his followers in that article. He tells them that there is a time when the lamb must lay down with the lion and surrender. In my opinion, he is so much as telling them to submit to whatever it is that wants them and to forget further questions or concerns. A little dangerous, I must say. Anyway, perhaps the reason that he hates mainstream UFOlogists so much is that exposure of Strieber's loyalty to whatever agency abductions represent is too great. Mike -- Michael Corbin - via FidoNet node 1:104/422 UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name INTERNET: Michael.Corbin@p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!hellgate.utah.edu!csn!scicom!paranet!p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG!Michael.Corbin From: Michael.Corbin@p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Michael Corbin) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: One More Thought On Strieber Message-ID: <74110.28B171B0@paranet.FIDONET.ORG> Date: 20 Aug 91 18:58:00 GMT Sender: ufgate@paranet.FIDONET.ORG (newsout1.26) Organization: FidoNet node 1:104/428.0 - ParaNet(sm) A, Arvada CO Lines: 29 > From: dlcogswe@vela.acs.oakland.edu (Dan Cogswell) > Date: 16 Aug 91 16:06:17 GMT > Organization: Oakland University, Rochester MI. > Message-ID: <9036@vela.acs.oakland.edu> > Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors > Is there something in the story you object to, Mike? I mean, is there > something that just doesn't fit and is just crazy? Simply because > Strieber is able to vividly describe the occurances doesn't mean they > aren't real or are embellished. Yes. It is his insistence that it is true and to accept the experience for what it is without further questioning it. I just finished reading his farewell message and I found it to be rather disturbing. I am only advocating that people not accept so much what he claims and to be a little more curious about what Strieber is trying to get people to swallow. For example, my analogy of this is that if you are buying a car, you test drive it first. The same holds true for this phenomenon: If you think you have experienced it, first try to identify what the agenda is. Don't accept it blindly. Mike -- Michael Corbin - via FidoNet node 1:104/422 UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name INTERNET: Michael.Corbin@p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!hellgate.utah.edu!csn!scicom!paranet!p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG!Michael.Corbin From: Michael.Corbin@p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Michael Corbin) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Strieber Message-ID: <74111.28B171B2@paranet.FIDONET.ORG> Date: 20 Aug 91 19:03:00 GMT Sender: ufgate@paranet.FIDONET.ORG (newsout1.26) Organization: FidoNet node 1:104/428.0 - ParaNet(sm) A, Arvada CO Lines: 34 > From: csuxr@warwick.ac.uk (Andrew Shires) > Date: 16 Aug 91 23:12:15 GMT > Organization: Computing Services, Warwick University, UK > Message-ID: <_#X}W4A@warwick.ac.uk> > Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors > OK, I missed this the first time. I apologise for dragging the `you > aren't > telling us anything' thread on. I do, however, hold that your (exposed) > objections are not enough to convince us of the absolute truth that > Strieber is a crook (just as his books are not enough to convince us > that > it happened). I hope you can see this point, but I'll respect the > confidence > of your sources, and let this facet of the discussion rest. Thank you. However, I must direct you to seek out a copy of Strieber's farewell message in his newsletter. It is copyrighted and I have not considered contacting him for permission to reprint it. I will say that it makes for very interesting reading, and one can easily discern what his true motives are for his actions. It implies that he has given himself over to whatever agency this represents and he suggests that the others do as well. For someone who supposedly hates any type of political or philosophical convictions, he is full of them. Mike -- Michael Corbin - via FidoNet node 1:104/422 UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name INTERNET: Michael.Corbin@p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!hellgate.utah.edu!csn!scicom!paranet!p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG!Michael.Corbin From: Michael.Corbin@p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Michael Corbin) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Streiber Message-ID: <74112.28B171B4@paranet.FIDONET.ORG> Date: 20 Aug 91 19:07:00 GMT Sender: ufgate@paranet.FIDONET.ORG (newsout1.26) Organization: FidoNet node 1:104/428.0 - ParaNet(sm) A, Arvada CO Lines: 21 > From: beddow@ux.acs.umn.edu (Jeff Beddow) > Date: 16 Aug 91 14:13:55 GMT > Organization: University of Minnesota, Academic Computing Services > Message-ID: > Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Your review of Ruppelt and Vallee were excellent! As an aside, I have access to Ruppelt's original papers which he kept for the publishing of his book. His writing was done with a great deal of restraint. His notes indicate a much more developed plot for the cover-up that is going on today. In any event, I find that anyone interested in UFOlogy should start with Ruppelt, then Keyhoe, and Jacobs, to finish with Vallee. Mike -- Michael Corbin - via FidoNet node 1:104/422 UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name INTERNET: Michael.Corbin@p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!hellgate.utah.edu!csn!scicom!paranet!p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG!Michael.Corbin From: Michael.Corbin@p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Michael Corbin) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: One More Thought On Strieber Message-ID: <74113.28B171B6@paranet.FIDONET.ORG> Date: 20 Aug 91 19:10:00 GMT Sender: ufgate@paranet.FIDONET.ORG (newsout1.26) Organization: FidoNet node 1:104/428.0 - ParaNet(sm) A, Arvada CO Lines: 26 > From: jdm@cadence.com (Joe Mastroianni) > Date: 18 Aug 91 00:40:50 GMT > Organization: Cadence Design Systems, Inc. > Message-ID: <1991Aug18.004050.29644@cadence.com> > Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors > UFO examiner team from a well known independently funded > organization > covers up valid data revealing some facts about the nature and > origin > of the visitor phenomenon. The motive for this is to keep the > profits > rolling in. I have heard this theory before regarding the team that made up Project Blue Book. They kept the reports mysterious just to assure continued funding for the project. Mike -- Michael Corbin - via FidoNet node 1:104/422 UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name INTERNET: Michael.Corbin@p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG Path: ns-mx!uunet!hbiso!mips2!cass.ma02.bull.com!minerva1!bull.bull.fr!corton!mcsun!news.funet.fi!sunic!dkuug!ambra!thierry From: thierry@ambra.dk (Thierry Robelin) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal,sci.skeptic Subject: Re: Great Pyramid part 4 Message-ID: <1991Aug5.082814.28912@ambra.dk> Date: 5 Aug 91 08:28:14 GMT References: <91206.162505JOHNFW@SLACVM.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> <1991Aug1.084244.15184@ambra.dk> Organization: AmbraSoft A/S Lines: 11 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:1818 alt.paranormal:2585 sci.skeptic:13911 Yes! I misunderstood feet square as square feet! Sorry! 8-( You don't need to send me messages about it any more! Thanks for the correction, though. :-) Thierry -- |####### |####### |###### |Thierry T. Robelin| "You must be dreaming." |# |# |#____|# |Ambrasoft A/S | |# |# |#~~~|# |Stroedamvej 50 | |# |# |# |# |DK-2100 Copenhagen| thierry@ambra.dk Path: ns-mx!uunet!hbiso!mips2!cass.ma02.bull.com!minerva1!bull.bull.fr!corton!mcsun!sunic!kullmar!compuram!pgd From: pgd@compuram.bbt.se Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal Subject: Re: Answer to how life got started on Earth. Message-ID: <1991Aug5.084242.3359@compuram.bbt.se> Date: 5 Aug 91 08:42:42 GMT References: <91191.083839JOHNFW@SLACVM.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> <1991Jul12.205856.26896@bony1.bony.com> <1991Aug3.170949.19919@hobbes.kzoo.edu> Lines: 29 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:1819 sci.skeptic:13912 alt.paranormal:2586 X-Comment-To: k080093@hobbes.kzoo.edu In article <1991Aug3.170949.19919@hobbes.kzoo.edu> k080093@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Josh Vander Berg) writes: >In article <91191.083839JOHNFW@SLACVM.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> JOHNFW@SLACVM.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU writes: >Nice theory, too bad it totally ignores scientific fact. If man was >brought here from another planet, why the heck does he share 99% of his >genome with chimps? Answer: He EVOLVED from monkeys. The reason they >can't find any missing link is because things that lived millions of years >ago are generally pretty damned hard to find evidence of nowadays. I >suppose though that you will just argue that whoever put humans here >genetically engineered us to be very similar to apes. Further and further >into fantasy we tread.... Evolution is not a scientific fact, it is a scientific theory. He comes with another theory. One is currently accepted, the other not, but does that make it the truth? There is no proof that humans EVOLVED from the monkeys. There are genetic similarities, but monkeys could as well have evolved from humans. The current state is that we don't know our origin, but we have this evolution theory which fits fairly well the whatever evidence is available. But there is also a lot of evidence which does not fit the evolution theory. -- -- Per Lindqvist Internet: pgd@compuram.bbt.se Fidonet: Per Lindqvist @ 2:201/332 Path: ns-mx!uunet!hbiso!mips2!cass.ma02.bull.com!minerva1!bull.bull.fr!corton!mcsun!news.funet.fi!sunic!sics.se!ifi.uio.no!gisle From: gisle@ifi.uio.no (Gisle Hannemyr) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: ARE YOU SIRIUS.? (some questions) Message-ID: Date: 5 Aug 91 15:06:24 GMT References: <2717@wet.UUCP> Sender: gisle@ifi.uio.no (Gisle Hannemyr) Organization: University of Oslo, Norway Lines: 56 Nntp-Posting-Host: kyrre.ifi.uio.no In-Reply-To: ccat@wet.UUCP's message of 21 Jul 91 20: 12:12 GMT Originator: gisle@kyrre.ifi.uio.no > I remember a few years ago reading a pseudo-science book > called "The Sirius Mystery" a few years ago , and being fascinated by > the books premise..basically that the Dogon tribe in northwest Africa > had a myth that they had been visited thousands of years ago by beings from > the star Sirius, who told them , among other things, that they were > from a double star and traveled in time..etc.. > > Struck me as fascinating at the time because the double star > aspect of the Sirius system wasnt verified until recent (relatively) > times...so thsi might actually indicate some contact...??? > > Anybody better informed than I who can shed some light on this subject..? It has was discussed on some TV show (I think Carl Sagan's "Cosmos"). The argument presented was that a french anthropologist (his name and the date was mentioned, but I don't recall) that had left Paris to study the Dogons only a month after a major French scientific journal had published a lot of new findings about Sirius (it being a double star, etc.), and that the scenario went like this: French Anthrpologist: "Hey, you people of Africa, I am a nosey anthropologist from the North, and I want to hear your tales." Dogon Elder: "Hokey -- but we should trade tales. You tell the tales of your people, and we'll tell ours." French Anthrpologist: "Hmmm... but I don't _know_ any good tales. Waitaminute --- let me find this old magaizine... Ahh, you see that star up there? Now listen! ..." And the Dogons turned out to enjoy this particular tale so much that they incorporated it into their mythology, which is what is reported in "The Sirius Mystery". What you believe is up to you, but personally I think Sagan's scenario is much more plausible than the "ancien atronaut" one. Disclaimer: The opinions expressed herein are not necessarily those of my employer, not necessarily mine, and probably not necessary. - gisle hannemyr (Norwegian Computing Center) EAN: C=no;PRMD=uninett;O=nr;S=Hannemyr;G=Gisle (X.400 SA format) gisle.hannemyr@nr.no (RFC-822 format) Inet: gisle@ifi.uio.no UUCP: ...!mcsun!ifi!gisle ------------------------------------------------ -- Disclaimer: The opinions expressed herein are not necessarily those of my employer, not necessarily mine, and probably not necessary. - gisle hannemyr (Norwegian Computing Center) EAN: C=no;PRMD=uninett;O=nr;S=Hannemyr;G=Gisle (X.400 SA format) gisle.hannemyr@nr.no (RFC-822 format) Inet: gisle@ifi.uio.no UUCP: ...!mcsun!ifi!gisle ------------------------------------------------ Path: ns-mx!shemtaia.weeg.uiowa.edu!rblack From: rblack@shemtaia.weeg.uiowa.edu (Roger Black) Newsgroups: sci.archaeology,sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors Subject: High-tech artifacts near Ogden? Message-ID: <7758@ns-mx.uiowa.edu> Date: 22 Aug 91 01:40:15 GMT Sender: news@ns-mx.uiowa.edu Followup-To: sci.archaeology Organization: University of Iowa, Iowa City, IA, USA Lines: 52 Xref: ns-mx sci.archaeology:509 sci.skeptic:13917 alt.alien.visitors:1821 The following posting recently appeared in the ParaNet UFO Echo on FidoNet. If the discovery described herein is true, it could have tremendous significance to a number of disciplines, including both Archaeology and Ufology. If false, it could represent the start of another "alien artifact" legend. If anyone can clarify this, refute it, or add further information about it, please do so. * Forwarded from "ParaNet UFO Echo" * Originally dated 1 May 1991, 4:04 + Originally from the KeelyNet BBS + Cross-posted by Clark Matthews Message 616 DATE/TIME: 08/18/91 09:32 From : JERRY DECKER (SYSOP) To : ALL Subject: Mysterious Object Folder : A, "Public Mail" Hello everyone. We have just heard about an object found approximately 640 feet under the earth while excavating for room to store radioactive waste. The object is from 25 to 40 feet in height and there are apparently 9 of them in a row on a north-south line. There are photos of it which I have yet to see, but OMNI and several other news services are doing their damndest to get the photos and/or more info. The site is around Ogden, UTAH, so if anyone there knows about such an excavation, please give us the details. The Ogden newspaper has not knowledge of such activity or such a discovery. When we get the photos, we will digitize them for those interested. I'll probably get in trouble for mentioning even this little bit of data but we would really like info if you know anything. The object has gears and appears to be a machine or a part of one. One guy says it looked like a gimbal to him though I have yet to see it to confirm. The story and photos comes from a scientist working with the Super-Collider through a mutual friend. That scientist was flown out to the site to see what he thought the thing was. It is made of an unknown metal or alloy and cannot be welded or cut. We question how they could take such an enormouse object from 640 feet down to the surface since it must weigh many tons. There is speculation that since it is such an unknown metal, it might be lightweight like some of the fragments from crashed UFOs are supposed to be. Guess I'm in hot water now but you guys might furnish more detailed info....I will try to get the pictures so everyone can see it.....Jerry =============================================================================== * Origin: The Wrong Number BBS - ParaNet Pi (201) 451-3063 24hrs. (1:107/ 816) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Roger Black rblack@shemtaia.weeg.uiowa.edu Disclaimer: My employer doesn't even know I have any opinions. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!swrinde!emory!att!linac!unixhub!slacvm!doctorj From: DOCTORJ@SLACVM.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU (Jon J Thaler) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic Subject: Re: Answer to how life got started on Earth. Message-ID: <91234.002702DOCTORJ@SLACVM.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> Date: 22 Aug 91 08:27:02 GMT Organization: Stanford Linear Accelerator Center Lines: 10 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:1822 sci.skeptic:13927 In article <1991Aug5.084242.3359@compuram.bbt.se>, pgd@compuram.bbt.se says: >The current state is that we don't know our origin, but we have this >evolution theory which fits fairly well the whatever evidence is >available. But there is also a lot of evidence which does not fit the >evolution theory. Anti-evolutionists are fond of making this statement, but they are never able to present any evidence which survives serious scrutiny. What evidence do you have, Mr Lindqvist? Path: ns-mx!uunet!iggy.GW.Vitalink.COM!pacbell.com!ucsd!nosc!rigel!wolfgang From: wolfgang@rigel.nosc.mil (Lewis E. Wolfgang) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal Subject: Re: Answer to how life got started on Earth. Message-ID: <4410@nosc.NOSC.MIL> Date: 22 Aug 91 18:32:29 GMT References: <1991Jul12.205856.26896@bony1.bony.com> <1991Aug3.170949.19919@hobbes.kzoo.edu> <1991Aug5.084242.3359@compuram.bbt.se> Sender: nobody@nosc.NOSC.MIL Organization: Naval Ocean Systems Center, San Diego Lines: 15 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:1823 sci.skeptic:13949 alt.paranormal:2610 In article <1991Aug5.084242.3359@compuram.bbt.se> pgd@compuram.bbt.se writes: >The current state is that we don't know our origin, but we have this >evolution theory which fits fairly well the whatever evidence is >available. But there is also a lot of evidence which does not fit the >evolution theory. > >Internet: pgd@compuram.bbt.se Fidonet: Per Lindqvist @ 2:201/332 Would you be so kind as to cite which evidence does not fit? One of the hallmarks of the scientific method is that hyphotheses (and theories) must be altered in the face of contradictory information. Thanks, Lewie wolfgang@nosc.mil Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!moe.ksu.ksu.edu!kuhub.cc.ukans.edu!wupost!m.cs.uiuc.edu!roundup.crhc.uiuc.edu!ux1.cso.uiuc.edu!uwm.edu!psuvax1! ukma!memstvx1!utkcs2!emory!samsung!spool.mu.edu!cs.umn.edu!ux.acs.umn.edu!beddow From: beddow@ux.acs.umn.edu (Jeff Beddow) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: APRO contact Message-ID: Date: 22 Aug 91 21:39:35 GMT Organization: University of Minnesota, Academic Computing Services Lines: 9 Distribution:world Anyone know how to get in touch with APRO? They sponsored an interesting exhibit here in MPLS a few years ago and I wonder what happened to it. -Jeff Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!samsung!nstar!sara From: sara@nstar.rn.com (Sara Gordon) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Who's seen a 'Grey' ? Keywords: anyone in this newsgroup? Message-ID: Date: 23 Aug 91 02:16:17 GMT References: <1991Aug20.054043.20345@cbnewse.cb.att.com> Sender: news@news.rn.com (Usenet News) Organization: NSTAR, Indiana's BBS 219-289-0287/317-251-7391 Lines: 12 Nntp-Posting-Host: zztop.rn.com so, if anyone had seen a grey or any of the OTHER types, do you think they would subject themselves to the examinations here, which almost rival those on the ships??? :) -- Sara Gordon Northern Star 8 line BBS 219-289-0287/317-251-7391 internet: sara@nstar.rn.com uucp: ..!uunet!nstar.rn.com!sara -= newsfeeds available, contact robert@towers.rn.com =- Path: ns-mx!uunet!iggy.GW.Vitalink.COM!widener!dsinc!bagate!cbmvax!amix!vanth!jms From: jms@vanth.UUCP (Jim Shaffer) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: ALIENS: THE BIG _LIE_ !!! Message-ID: Date: 21 Aug 91 03:55:17 GMT References: <7608@ns-mx.uiowa.edu> <1094@cronos.metaphor.com> Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence Lines: 17 In article <1094@cronos.metaphor.com> eherrera@zinfandel.metaphor.com (Eric Herrera) writes: >there some rule that says intelligent life *must* develop into a human- >like form? (2 arms, 2 eyes, etc.) And oxygen-breathing to boot? Why >can't our ETs be ammonia-absorbing jellyfish, or non-corporeal even? >Does this make sense to anybody? Assuming that they *are* corporeal, and that they can't, for example, teleport psychically, they've got to develop into some form which can use tools or else they wouldn't be able to come to Earth. Nothing says *intelligent* life must be humanoid, but *technological* civilizations aren't going to be made of jellyfish no matter how intelligent. -- * From the disk of: |****** NOTE NEW ADDRESSES ******| We're only immortal Jim Shaffer, Jr. |* uunet!snark!vanth!jms *| for a limited time. 37 Brook Street |**jms%vanth@snark.thyrsus.com***| Montgomery, PA 17752 | 72750.2335@compuserve.com | (Rush, "Dreamline") Path: ns-mx!uunet!iggy.GW.Vitalink.COM!widener!dsinc!bagate!cbmvax!amix!vanth!jms From: jms@vanth.UUCP (Jim Shaffer) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy Subject: Re: FILE: OH Krill part 4 (Conclusion) Message-ID: Date: 21 Aug 91 04:03:12 GMT References: <1991Aug8.055411.24453@bilver.uucp> <1991Aug9.201944.5348@cadence.com> <1991Aug13.014457.9608@bilver.uucp> Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence Lines: 11 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:1827 alt.conspiracy:6685 Although you can say the O. H. Krill file is a fraud if it's intended to be a genuine alien- or government-authored document, I feel that it's important to realize that it contains many quotes from other sources, and therefore might still be useful *if the sources can be verified as reliable*. -- * From the disk of: |****** NOTE NEW ADDRESSES ******| We're only immortal Jim Shaffer, Jr. |* uunet!snark!vanth!jms *| for a limited time. 37 Brook Street |**jms%vanth@snark.thyrsus.com***| Montgomery, PA 17752 | 72750.2335@compuserve.com | (Rush, "Dreamline") Path: ns-mx!uunet!iggy.GW.Vitalink.COM!widener!dsinc!bagate!cbmvax!amix!vanth!jms From: jms@vanth.UUCP (Jim Shaffer) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: ALIENS: THE BIG _LIE_ !!! Message-ID: Date: 21 Aug 91 04:10:57 GMT References: <7608@ns-mx.uiowa.edu> <1094@cronos.metaphor.com> <45679@cup.portal.com> Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence Lines: 19 In article <45679@cup.portal.com> sgraziano@cup.portal.com (Steve - Graziano) writes: > >Its funny how the greys have a similar look to the aliens of the movie >CLOSE ENCOUNTERS OF THE THIRD KIND. > >Why have we not heard anything about greys prior to this movie? hmmm? I'm sure there were abductions prior to CETK. They just weren't getting as much attention, especially from non-ufologists, as today. In fact, I've heard that the aliens in CETK were based on abduction accounts. (I've also heard that some of the spacecraft were based on the Bentwaters case, which incidentally is going to be the season premier of "Unsolved Mysteries" complete with effects by ILM.) -- * From the disk of: |****** NOTE NEW ADDRESSES ******| We're only immortal Jim Shaffer, Jr. |* uunet!snark!vanth!jms *| for a limited time. 37 Brook Street |**jms%vanth@snark.thyrsus.com***| Montgomery, PA 17752 | 72750.2335@compuserve.com | (Rush, "Dreamline") Path: ns-mx!uunet!mcsun!ukc!ox-prg!oxuniv!ameij From: ameij@vax.oxford.ac.uk Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: FILE: OH Krill part 2 Message-ID: <1991Aug22.150815.1560@vax.oxford.ac.uk> Date: 22 Aug 91 14:08:15 GMT References: Organization: Oxford University VAXcluster Lines: 14 In article , jms@vanth.UUCP (Jim Shaffer) writes: > > By the way, there's a user on KeelyNet who apparently has a patent on some > method of electromagnetically treating metals so as to radically change > their properties. Such as making aluminum hard enough to break a Rockwell > hardness tester... The free energy researcher, Moray, also is said to have > discovered such a process. Well, wouldn't it be peachy if they could let those of us in the Materials Science world know of the methods. I am sitting 10 feet from a Rockwell Hardness Tester ... Ian Path: ns-mx!uunet!crdgw1!ge-dab!tarpit!bilver!dona From: dona@bilver.uucp (Don Allen) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy Subject: INFO: Astronomical Society Survey on UFO's Message-ID: <1991Aug23.032524.16515@bilver.uucp> Date: 23 Aug 91 03:25:24 GMT Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL Lines: 163 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:1830 alt.conspiracy:6695 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- This information is presented for your persusal and is a continuation of my policy of informing the public what is currently available. The content of this information does NOT necessarily reflect the personal views of the poster,nor should the views,opinions,statements or claims represented in the following be accepted by anyone reading these texts at *face* value. If this interests you, please endeavor to research it yourself and investigate it to *your* satisfaction, and as such I will leave it in your hands to either prove it or de-bunk it :-) As I do not have a great amount of time available to pursue follow-ups exclusively, comments to me should be directed to dona@bilver.uucp in mail. --------------------------------------------------------------------- REPORT ON A SURVEY OF THE MEMBERSHIP OF THE AMERICAN ASTRONOMICAL SOCIETY CONCERNING THE UFO PHENOMENON SUMMARY Referred journals, to which scientists turn for their reliable information, carry virtually no information on the UFO problem. Does this imply that scientists have no views and no thoughts on the subject, or that all scientists consider it insignificant? Does it imply that scientists have no reports to submit comparable with UFO reports published in newspapers and popular books? The purpose of this survey is to answer these questions. Of 2,611 questionnaires mailed to members of the American Astronomical Society, 1,356 were returned, 34 anonymously. Only two members offered to waive anonymity. These facts and many comments confirm that the UFO problem is a sensitive issue for most scientists. Nevertheless, only a few (13) respondents made critical remarks about the subject or the survey; 50 made encouraging statements, 34 offered to help, and 7 indicated that they are actively studying the problem. Each respondent was asked to state his opinion on whether the UFO problem deserves scientific study: 23% replied "certainly", 30% "probably", 27% "possibly", 17% "probably not", and 3% "certainly not", which represents a positive attitude among 53% of the respondents, as against a negative attitude among 20%. Analysis of the returns shows that older scientists are markedly more negative to the problem than are younger scientists. One also finds that opinions correlate strongly with time spent reading about the subject. The fraction of respondents who think that the subject certainly or probably deserves scientific study rises from 29%, among those who have spent less than one hour, to 68% among those who have spent more than 365 hours in such reading. It appears that popular books and publications by established scientists exert a positive influence on scientists' opinions, whereas newspaper and magazine articles exert negligible influence. Respondents were asked to express their views on possible causes of UFO reports by assigning "prior probabilities" to four "conventional" causes [(a) a hoax, (b) a familiar phenomenon or device, (c) an unfamiliar natural phenomenon, and (d) an unfamiliar terrestrial device] and four "unconventional" causes [(e) an unknown natural phenomenon, (f) an alien device, (g) some specifiable other cause, and (h) some unspecifiable other cause]. There was a very wide spread of opinions on this issue. Averaging all returns gives the values: (a) .12, (b) .22, (c) .23, (d) .21, (e) .09, (f) .03, (g) .07. This average response is therefore quite open-minded, although many individual responses are not. Older people tend to give more credence to the possibility of a hoax and less to unconventional possibilities. By contrast, those who have studied the subject extensively attach less weight to the possibility of a hoax and greater weight to the unconventional possibilities. Over 80% of respondents expressed a willingness to contribute to the resolution of the UFO problem if they could see a way to do so but, of those expressing this interest, only 13% could see a way. This is a notable consensus which may encapsulate the dilemma which this problem presents to scientists. Those who have studied the subject are more willing to help and more likely to see a way to help. Most respondents consider that meteorology, psychology, astronomy/astrophysics and physics have relevance to the UFO problem and some consider that aeronautical engineering and sociology may also be relevant. Most respondents (75%) would like to obtain more information on the subject, but they express a strong preference for getting it from scientific journals rather than from books or lectures. The returns identified 62 respondents who had witnessed or obtained an instrumental record of an event which they could not identify and which they thought might be related to the UFO phenomenon. The total number of events reported was larger (65) since some respondents reported more than one event. In addition, ten _identified_ strange observations were mentioned, four investigations were described (including one detailed study of ground traces), and attention was drawn to a few strange events described in the scientific literature. It was found that these 62 respondents have spent longer than average studying the UFO problem, that they are more positive in their assessment of the scientific importance of the problem, and that they tend to be more open-minded about unconventional explanations. Only 18 (about 30%) of these respondents indicated that they had previously reported their observations; seven to the Air Force, Navy or NORAD, one to the police, two to airport authorities, seven to other scientists, and one to a newspaper. Sixty-three percent (63%) of those reporting events were night-sky observers, as against 50% of respondents who did not report events. Thirty-six (36) of the events comprised lights seen in the sky at night. Twelve (12) were of point lights which were more or less puzzling; four (4) were of formations of lights; and four (4) were of diffuse lights. Three respondents independently described what appeared to be a searchlight playing on a cloud when there were no clouds in the sky. Four described disk-like objects, and five described objects with different shapes. Three cases concerned objects which appeared to emit smaller objects or "sparks." One case described apparent interference with an automobile electrical system (as did also a daylight case). There were sixteen accounts of strange objects seen by day. Five were of small objects, seven were of disk-shaped objects, and four described other miscellaneous observations. Seven respondents described photographic records of strange phenomena, and three were kind enough to provide me with copies of the photographs or film. (With help, I was able to make plausible interpretations of two of these.) One respondent recalled a radar observation he had made, another described two strange radio records, and a third described puzzling records obtained by a satellite tracking station. This study leads to the following answers to the questions initially posed. To judge from this survey of the membership of the American Astronomical Society, it appears that: (a) scientists have thoughts and views but no answers concerning the UFO problem; (b) Although there is no consensus, more scientists are of the opinion that the problem certainly or probably deserves scientific study than are of the opinion that it certainly or probably does not; and (c) a small fraction (of order 5%) are likely to report varied and puzzling observations, not unlike so-called "UFO reports" made by the general public. As is the case with reports from the public, many may be unusual observations of familiar objects, but some seem to be definitely strange. These results are consistent with the findings of an earlier but more limited survey of members of the American Institute of Aeronautics and Astronautics (Sturrock, 1974b), except that the opinions of astronomers (expressed in 1975) concerning the significance of the UFO problem were more positive than were the views of aeronautical engineers (expressed in 1973). EOF --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Don -- -* Don Allen *- InterNet: dona@bilver.UUCP // Amiga..for the best of us. USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-) UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!vicstoy!dona 0110 0110 0110 Just say NO! Illuminati < MJ-12|Greys|TLC|CFR|FED|Bilderbergs > UN = "New World Order" Path: ns-mx!uunet!crdgw1!ge-dab!tarpit!bilver!dona From: dona@bilver.uucp (Don Allen) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy Subject: SOURCES: Aztec Book service - UFO Books/publications Message-ID: <1991Aug23.033512.16613@bilver.uucp> Date: 23 Aug 91 03:35:12 GMT Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL Lines: 1039 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:1831 alt.conspiracy:6696 I'm posting this rather long (over 20k) listing of a book service that in my opinion, is an _excellent_ source for hard-to find and out-of-print publications on UFO books. Please note: This posting is for informational purposes only. I have NO affiliation with the Aztec Book service in any way whatsoever. This is being posted because of the many requests I receive in email and observe on the net of "Where can I get these books"? and "Will someone please post a list of these books"? type questions. ---------Begin Book listing --------------------------------------------- Catalog 1190 @@@ @@@@@@@ @@@@@@@@ @@@@@@@ @@@@@@ @@ @@ @@ @@ @@ @@ @@ ENTERPRISES @@ @@ @@ @@ @@@@@ @@ PO BOX 668 @@ @@@ @@ @@ @@ @@ @@ BUSHKILL, PA @@ @@ @@ @@ @@ @@ @@ 18324 @@ @@ @@@@@@@ @@ @@@@@@@ @@@@@@ AZTEC BOOK SERVICE Catalog 1190 Curator: Paul Faeder ITEM PRICE NO. CW10-1 $14.45 UFO CONTACT FROM ALIENS IN STARSHIPS Dibitanto-Sherwood. Human beings who come from a part of Venus not observable to us. 160 pages. CW10-2 $14.45 UFO...GEORGE ADAMSKY, THEIR MAN ON EARTH Lou Zinsstag. The life and work of UFO contactee George Adamsky as known by the author. 160 pages. CW10-3 $18.45 UFO CRASH AT AZTEC Steinman-Stevens. A report on the investigation of the crash of an alien spacecraft with 16 EBE bodies on-board. Recovered by U.S. gov't officials. 626 pages. CW10-4 $16.45 UFO PHOTOGRAPHS AROUND THE WORLD VOL.II Stevens-Roberts. UFO photos around the world including the details of the photographic events. 138 actual UFO photos, 250 pages. CW10-5 $14.45 UFO PHOTOGRAPHS AROUND THE WORLD VOL.I Stevens-Roberts. 250 pages, 130 photos. CW10-6 $16.45 UFO CONTACT FROM RETICULUM Stevens-Herrmann. A report on the sightings, photos and first abductions of William J. Herrmann of Charleston, S. Carolina in a continuing series of UFO contact from 1978 to 1981. 416 pages. CW10-7 $18.45 UFO CONTACT FROM RETICULUM UPDATE Stevens. 444 pages. CW10-8 $29.00 UFO CONTACT FROM THE PLEIADES, A SUPPLEMENTARY INVESTIGATION REPORT. Stevens. A follow-up report on the contacts by the Pleiadians and Eduard "Billy" Meier. 553 pages, 100 photos. CW10-9 $9.95 1991 CALENDAR. Contains 13 UFO photos, lasar-scanned and enlarged to 9" x 11". RI06-1 $16.00 UNIVITED GUESTS Richard Hall. Overview of the UFO phenomenon by the former director of NICAP. 384 pages, AUTOGRAPHED RI06-2 $23.95 THE GULF BREEZE SIGHTINGS Ed and Frances Walters. Recent and very controversial UFO sightings. 480 pages, 70 color photos, AUTOGRAPHED. RI06-3 $12.00 ANALYSIS OF THE GULF BREEZE VIDEOTAPE Bruce Maccabee, Ph.D. A technical discussion of the investigation of the UFO video by Ed Walters. 50 pages, illustrated. RI06-4 $28.00 A HISTORY OF THE GULF BREEZE FLORIDA SIGHTINGS Bruce Maccabee, Ph.D. Summary of the sightings and photographs of the recent Gulf Breeze events. 125 pages, illustrated. RI06-5 $16.00 THE BLUE BOOK UNKNOWNS Don Berliner Catalog of 585 admittedly unexplained cases from the Project Blue Book files. 85% include witnesses names subsequently censored. 65 pages. RI06-6 $12.00 THE FANTASTIC FLIGHT OF JAL 1628 Bruce Macabee, Ph.D. Complete report on the Japan Air Lines sighting of 11/17/1986. 52 pages, illustrated. RI06-7 $16.00 THE MUNDRABILLA INCIDENT Keith Basterfield Report of the investigation of the January 20, 1988 Australian case. 70 pages, illustrated. RI06-8 $58.00 UFOs of 1896-97: THE AIRSHIP WAVE Robert G. Neely Jr. Wave of UFO sightings between 1896-97. 324 pages. RI06-9 $86.00 THE 1912-1913 BRITISH PHANTOM AIRSHIP SCARE Nigel Watson, etal A compilation of more than 300 sighting reports. 509 pages, illustrated. RI06-10 $112.00 UFO ABDUCTIONS: THE MEASURE OF MYSTERY Thomas E. Bullard, Ph.D. Description and analysis of 270 cases. 673 pages, illustrated. RI06-11 $11.00 FINAL REPORT ON THE PSYCHOLOGICAL TESTING OF UFO ABDUCTEES. Ted Bloecher, Aphrodite Clamar, Budd Hopkins The first scientific testing of 9 individuals who recall being abducted by UFOnauts. 44 pages. RI06-12 $6.60 THE ISOLATION SYNDROME Willy Smith A detailed examination of one aspect of many close encounter cases, the "lonely road syndrome". 18 pages, illustrated. RI06-13 $95.00 DECLASSIFIED UFO/GOVERNMENT DOCUMENTS Significant documents from the files of the U.S. and Canadian governments. Approximately 600 pages. RI06-14 $16.00 DOCUMENTS AND SUPPORTING INFORMATION RELATED TO CRASHED FLYING SAUCERS AND OPERATION MAJESTIC TWELVE. Bruce Maccabee, Ph.D. Contains the startling MJ-12 document. 64 pages. RI06-15 $12.50 THE SCIENTIFIC INVESTIGATION OF UNIDENTIFIED FLYING OBJECTS Bruce Maccabee, Ph.D. The most complete investigation of Project Blue Book Special Report #14. 51 pages, illustrated. RI06-16 $15.00 UFO LANDING NEAR KIRTLAND AFB (OR WELCOME TO THE COSMIC WATERGATE) Bruce Maccabee, Ph.D. An analysis of the officially documented landing of a UFO on a sensitive military base. 30 pages. RI06-17 $15.00 SENATOR RICHARD RUSSELL: FLYING SAUCER WITNESS Bruce Maccabee, Ph.D. Government documents related to the sighting of a UFO by the Chairman of the Armed Services Committee in 1955. 65 pages, illustrated. NX07-07 $9.00 THE EXTRATERRESTRIALS AND THEIR REALITY John H. Andrews Who are the Et's? Where do they come from? Why are they here and what are thier plans? This book has the answers. PY66-12 $17.45 ORGONE ENERGY - THE ANSWER TO ATOMIC SUICIDE Jerome Eden PY66-13 $19.45 PLANET IN TROUBLE - THE UFO ASSUALT ON EARTH Jerome Eden This book describes Wilhelm Reich's crucial research into the UFO phenomenon and his frightening conclusions. PY66-14 $19.45 SCAVENGERS FROM SPACE Jerome Eden The result of nearly three decades of research in UFO's. Provides dramatic evidence of the hostile intentions of many UFO's towards Earth. PY66-15 $14.45 VIEW FROM EDEN - TALKS WITH STUDENTS OF ORGONOMY Jerome Eden A valuable assessment of the Life Energy and how it functions in man and his planet, with prac- tical insights into the work of Wilhelm Reich. PY66-16 $5.50 TESTAMENT OF FOOLS Jerome Eden An indictment of the "UFO Cult of Magicians" which has evaded or covered-up the UFO threat to our planet. PY66-17 $3.50 THE ORAC Jerome Eden An introduction to the Orgone Energy Accumulator. Basic details with diagrams and references on building simple experimental accumulators. PY66-18 $5.50 UFO WITNESS - TESTIMONY OF DR. JAMES MCDONALD Testimony of the renowned physicist, the late Dr. James McDonald who investigated scores of UFO sightings, analyzed them and testified before a special committee of the U.S. Congress in 1968. PY66-19 $11.50 EARTH ON TRIAL - THE WILHELM REICH COURT CASE This volume contains the U.S. Government injunction which succeeded in the banning and burning of all of Dr. Reich's published books in the United States! SQ54-44 $10.50 CONDENSED INTRO TO TESLA TRANSFORMERS Eric P. Dollard An abstract of the theory and construction techniques of Tesla Transformers. 70 pages, staples. SQ54-45 $7.45 DIELECTRIC & MAGNETIC DISCHARGES IN ELECTRICAL WINDINGS Eric P. Dollard The theory of abrupt electrical oscillations such as those used by Tesla for experimental research. Contains ELECTRICAL OSCILLATIONS IN ANTENNAE & INDUCTION COILS by John Miller, 1919, one of the few articles containing equations useful to the design of Tesla coils. 38 pages, staples. SQ54-46 $12.45 SYMBOLIC REPRESENTATION OF THE GENERALIZED ELECTRIC WAVE Eric P. Dollard Extension of the theory of versor operators and imaginary numbers to represent complec oscill- ating waves. Waves flowing backwards in time are explored. 86 pages, staples. SQ54-47 $10.25 THEORY OF WIRELESS POWER Eric P. Dollard Tesla demonstrated wireless power but never re- vealed the secret. Based on real work with a Tesla Magnifying Transmitter. Illustrated with charts and diagrams. 69 pages, stapled. SQ54-48 $4.50 MAGNETIC CURRENT Edward Leedskalnin The rare manuscript of the builder of the Coral Castle. Along with presenting his most curious viewpoint on the fluid, flowing force of Mag- netism, Leedskalnin gives the reader various experiments to try in order to understand the incredible forces he tapped to build his enig- matic structure. SQ54-49 $7.00 TWO INVENTORS RETURN and PROJECT HERMES Gilbert Wright Part 1 is by General Electric engineer Glibert Wright on his psychic contacts with Steinmetz and Edison. Part 2 in on Project Hermes, an electronic device for stimulating the telepathic transmitting and receiving centers within the brain, instructions for building it, diagram and discussion of possible effects on the user. Includes schematic for the Hidden World receiver from the Shaver mystery. 42 pages, stapled. SQ54-50 $15.45 THE CRYSTAL BOOK Alison Davidson Contents include: The Therapeutic Powers of Quartz, Crystals and Electricity, Crystal Force, Crystals and Cancer, Lithium - The Ultimate Compound. 92 pages, stapled. SQ54-51 $11.45 THE COMING OF THE GUARDIANS Meade Layne A historical re-issue of a classic from the early years about the "Guardians" of the planet and their patrol ships received through Rolf Telano; Communications from the Mark Probert "Inner Circle" giving the first intelligent data on UFOs starting in 1946. Includes a chart of the Etheric Zones around the Earth from which UFOs materialize. 76 pages, stapled. SQ54-52 $6.45 FLYING SAUCERS ON THE MOON Riley Hansard Crabb Ever wonder why we stopped going to the moon? An analysis of 200 years of astronomical observations, with charts of strange lights backs-up this author's premise that the moon is inhabited and serves as a Flying Saucer base. 41 pages, stapled. SQ54-53 $5.50 THE REALITY OF THE UNDERGROUND CAVERN WORLD Riley Hansard Crabb Whether solid or hollow, there are cavern net- works throughout much of the Earth's outer shell. This paper is an analysis of the Inner Earth and it's denizens including the origin of the Legends of the Serpent Race; The Shaver Mystery and the Deros; Human Dwarves and Giants; and a Guided Tour of the Earth's Interior. 33 pages, stapled. SQ54-54 $7.00 FLYING SAUCERS AT EDWARDS AFB, 1954 A compilation of documents about a secret landing of a UFO at Edwards AFB and the meeting of top officials with aliens. 44 pages, stapled. SQ54-55 $7.45 M.K. JESSUP & THE ALLENDE LETTERS The Philadelphia Experiment File Includes copies of Carlos Allende's letters to Jessup about a disappearing Navy destroyer and crew in the fall of 1943-44 with a descrip- tion of the disatrous effects of a powerful anti-gravity field on the men involved. 51 pages, stapled. LP44-90 $11.95 THE PRISM OF LYRA - An Exploration of Human Galactic Heritage Lyssa Royal and Keith Priest Traces various developing off-planet races through their own evolution and ties them into the developing Earth. LP44-91 $67.50 EXTRATERRESTRIALS AND EARTH (Cassette tape) Channeled from Lyssa Royal, this set contains: The Arcturus Connection, The Sirius Connection, Pleidian Ancestry, The Orion Conflict, History of the Zeta Reticuli, Earth Inception, + more. A total of 9 seperate channelings. ********* REPRODUCTIONS OF OLD OR OUT-OF-PRINT BOOKS *********** LB32-11 $7.95 ALCHEMY REDISCOVERD AND RESTORED A. Cochran 158 pages. Offset facsimile. LB32-12 $7.95 ATLANTIS & LEMURIA Dr. Rudolf Steiner (1923) 131 pages, facsimile LB32-13 $15.95 THE BOOK OF THE DEAD (Eqyptian literature) E.A. Wallis Budge 398 pages, facsimile, spirals LB32-14 $7.95 CRYSTAL GAZING - It's History and Practice Dr. Northcote W. Thomas 162 pages, facsimile, spirals LB32-15 $7.95 FLYING SAUCERS FROM THE EARTH'S INTERIOR Dr. Raymond W. Bernard 89 pages, mimeographed LB32-16 $8.50 THE GREAT PYRAMID OF EGYPT S.H. Ford DD, MD (1882) 208 pages, facsimile, spirals LB32-17 $14.50 THE GREAT PYRAMID IN FACT AND IN THEORY W. Kingsland (1932) 125 pages, facsimile, spirals LB32-18 $14.00 THE GREATER KEY OF SOLOMON L.W. DeLaurence (1914) 128 pages LB32-19 $12.50 THE HISTORY OF ATLANTIS Lewis Spence 236 pages, facsimile LB32-20 $12.50 THE HOLLOW EARTH Dr. Raymond W. Bernard 105 pages, mimeographed. LB32-21 $5.50 HOW TO COMBAT PSYCHIC ATTACK E. Nassau (1957) 39 pages, facsimile LB32-22 $6.50 HOW TO DEVELOP PSYCHIC POWERS Rev. Franklin A. Thomas (1922) 98 pages LB31-23 $6.50 MEN IN BLACK (MIB) ALIENS AMONG US Timothy Beckley Facsimile LB32-24 $85.00 NIKOLA TESLA - LECTURES, PATENTS & ARTICLES Nikola Tesla Museum, Beograd, Yugoslavia (1956) 1856 - 1943. 850 pages, facsimile, 2 Volumes. LB32-25 $15.50 THE ROSICRUCIANS (Their Rites & Mysteries) Hargrave Jennings (1887 copyright) 478 pages, facsimile. LB32-26 $12.50 SACRED MYSTERIES AMONG THE MAYAS AND QUICHES Augustus LePlongeon (1909) 163 pages, facsimile, spirals LB32-27 $9.50 THE SAUCERS SPEAK! George Hunt Williamson 127 pages, spirals LB32-28 $14.50 THE SHAVER MYSTERY AND THE INNER EARTH Timothy Green Beckley 95 pages, facsimile LB32-29 $10.50 THE SUPPRESSED TRUTH ABOUT THE ASSASSINATION OF ABRAHAM LINCOLN Burke McCarthy (1922). 272 pages, spirals LB32-30 $18.00 UNIFIED FIELD THEORY J.G. Gallimore approx. 100 pages. LB32-31 $7.50 WHAT YOU SHOULD KNOW ABOUT UFOS J. Allen Hynek 7 pages, photocopied. *************** V I D E O / A U D I O T A P E S ************* Taped at the 26th annual UFO conference held in Phoenix Arizona September 1989. WS78-101 Dianne Tessman ..... Message from the Stars WS78-102 Martin Cannon ...... Implants and the CIA WS78-103 Jim Mosely ......... Conspiracies WS78-104 Al Benz ............ Cloak and Dagger - The CIA WS78-105 Pat Diegel ......... Are You From Another Planet WS78-106 Joshua Shapiro ..... The Mysteries of the Crystal Skull WS78-107 Brad/Sherry Steiger 4,000 Years of the Other WS78-108 Antonio Hueenes .... UFOs in South America WS78-109 Jenny Randall ...... British Perspective on UFOs WS78-110 Wesley Bateman ..... UFOs and Spirituality WS78-111 Hal Starr .......... UFO Investigations (The seamy side of the movement) WS78-112 Rich Sauder ........ Personal Contact and Testimony WS78-113 Press Panel #1 WS78-114 Press Panel #2 WS78-115 Al Bielick ....... Philadelphia Experiment (eyewitness) AUDIO TAPES VIDEO TAPES Single Tape ......... $ 8.75 Single Tape ......... $ 29.95 Any Three ........... $22.75 Any Three ........... $ 68.95 Any Five ............ $27.95 Any Five ............ $ 99.95 Entire Conference ... $89.95 Entire Conference ... $325.00 ******************* U S E D B O O K S ************************ P = Paper back H = Hard cover UM1-1 $2.00 Bermuda Triangle, The Berlitz, Charles Avon 1974 252 pages P With photos, map and charts. This is the special movie edition. UM1-2 $2.00 Incident at Exeter Fuller, John G. Putnam 1966 221 pages Very interesting account of a rash of UFO sight- ings in Exeter New Hampshire in 1965. UM1-3 $2.00 Bermuda Triangle, The Jeffrey, Adi-Kent Thomas Warner 1973 189 pages 16 pages of photographs and a fold out map of the Bermuda Triangle. UM1-4 $2.25 Late Great Planet Earth, The Lindsey, Hal Bantam 1970 177 pages P An easy-to-read book about bible prophecy. UM1-5 $2.00 Great Lakes Triangle, The Gourley, Jay Fawcett 1977 187 pages P Well researched book about a Bermuda-like triangle in the Great Lakes. UM1-6 $2.00 Bermuda Triangle, The Berlitz, Charles Avon 1974 252 pages P UM1-7 $2.00 U237 in the Devil's Triangle Jones III, John M. Neptune 1975 106 pages P This is a first edition book combining fiction and non-fiction about the Bermuda Triangle. UM1-8 $4.50 Mirror For Witches, A Forbes, Esther Academy Chicago (Cassandra edition) 1928 214 pages P 'It is a remarkable piece of work, a thing of beauty in itself...' Chicago Tribune UM1-9 $7.50 Light Years Kinder, Gary Atlantic Monthly Press 1987 213 pages H About Billy Meier's many UFO encounters. The COLOR UFO photos alone make this a good value. UM1-10 $2.00 Gods and Spacemen in the Ancient West Drake, Raymond W. Signet 1974 230 pages P Lemuria, Atlantis, Aztec, Mayan Incas. UM1-11 $2.50 Beyond Earth: Man's Contact With UFOs Blum, Ralph Bantam 1974 248 pages P 32 pages of illustrations makes this a great buy. UM1-12 $5.40 Witchcraft In Britain Hole, Christina Paladin 1977 203 pages P A history of british witchcraft UM1-13 $6.50 Miracles of the Gods Von Daniken Delacorte Press 1974 228 pages H Sequel to Chariots of the Gods. UM1-14 $7.50 I Ching, The Translated by James Legge Dover 448 pages P 'The book of changes'. The sacred books of China. UM1-15 $4.75 Close Encounters of the Third Kind Spielberg, Steven Delacorte Press 1977 215 pages H UM1-16 $1.75 Chariots of the Gods Von Daniken, Erich Bantam 1968 163 pages P Illustrated. UM1-17 $2.00 Search for the Girl with the Blue Eyes, The Stearn, Jess Bantam 1968 244 pages P Joanne MacIver remembers her life as Susan Ganier over a century earlier. UM1-18 $2.00 Late Great Planet Earth, The Lindsey, Hal Bantam 1970 180 pages P UM1-19 $3.50 Children of MU, The Churchward, James Paperback Library 1931 223 pages P 'The strange, true story of the pioneers of MU - a super-civilization that disappeared' El Paso Times UM1-20 $2.25 World of the paranormal, The McGraw, Walter Pyramid 1969 205 pages P ESP, telepathy, ghosts. UM1-21 $3.50 Atlantis The Eighth Continent Berlitz, Charles Fawcett 1984 243 pages P Illustrations. UM1-22 $1.75 Gold of the Gods, The Von Daniken, Erich Bantam 1972 235 pages P UM1-23 $6.75 Window To The Past: Exploring History Through ESP Holzer, Hans Doubleday 1969 254 pages H UM1-24 $8.50 We Don't Die Martin, Joel & Romanowski, Patricia Putnam 1988 302 pages H About George Anderson who receives messages from 'the other side'. UM1-25 $8.50 Return, The Evans, Mike Nelson 1986 236 pages H A mosaic of prophecy and modern day fulfillment UM1-26 $5.25 Bermuda Triangle, The Berlitz, Charles Doubleday 1974 199 pages H UM1-27 $2.75 12th Planet, The Sitchin, Zecharia Avon 1976 436 pages P Are our creators actually aliens? Well researched and illustrated UM1-28 $2.00 Crash Go The Chariots Wilson, Clifford Lancer 1972 126 pages P This bursts Von Danikens balloon. UM1-29 $1.75 Chariots of the Gods Von Daniken, Erich Bantam 1968 163 pages P UM1-30 $2.25 Miracles of the Gods Von Daniken, Erich Dell 1975 291 pages P 40 original photos UM1-31 $2.00 Devils Triangle, The Winer, Richard Bantam 1974 222 pages P AKA the Bermuda Triangle. 16 pages of photos. UM1-32 $7.50 Interrupted Journey, The Fuller, John G. Dial 1966 302 pages H About the Betty & Barney Hill abduction case UM1-33 $8.50 Kabbalah, The Franck, Adolphe Bell 1940 224 pages H The religous philosphy of the Hebrews UM1-34 $2.50 Metaphysical Meditations Yogananda, Paramahansa Self-realization fellowship 1964 115 pages P UM1-35 $4.95 Upanishads, The Translated by Swami Prabhavananda Mentor 1948 128 pages P Selected and translated principal texts from the original Sanskrit. UM1-36 $3.50 Age of Fable, The Bulfinch, Thomas Mentor 408 pages P UM1-37 $6.95 Koran, The Penguin 1956 447 pages P The Muslim word of God UM1-38 $2.25 Meditatins of the Masters Edited by Hua, Ellen Kei Thor 1977 125 pages P UM1-39 $5.95 Magic, Supernaturalism and Religion Seligmann, Kurt Pantheon 1948 342 pages P Many topics covered. Great reference book! UM1-40 $2.50 Spiritual Instructions of Swami Muktananda Muktanda Dawn Horse Press 1974 15 pages P UM1-41 $2.00 Power for Living Buckingham, Jamie DeMoss Foundation 1983 141 pages P Inspirational UM1-42 $2.50 Guide for the Perplexed, A Schumacher, E.F. Harper & Row 1977 147 pages P Excellent philosophical book! UM1-43 $4.25 Socrates Buddha Confucius Jesus Jaspers, Karl Harvest 1957 104 pages P Excellent book that looks at the above 4 from an existentialist POV. UM1-44 $2.00 You-Forever Rampa, Lobsang Corgi 1965 219 pages P A book by an ex-Lama of the Potala in Lhasa, Tibet UM1-45 $2.50 Mere Christianity Lewis, C.S. Macmillan 1943 190 pages P UM1-46 $2.25 Edgar Cayce - The Sleeping Prophet Stearn, Jess Bantam 1967 287 pages P The life and prophecies of Edgar Cayce UM1-47 $2.50 Guide for the Seeker Hittleman, Richard Bantam 1978 238 pages P The philosophy of Yoga. UM1-48 $3.50 Essays in Philosophy Various Washington Square 1974 542 pages P Many essays by many well known philosophers. UM1-49 $2.00 Power of Positive Thinking, The Peale, Norman Vincent Spire 1952 223 pages P UM1-50 $18.95 Ideas and Opinions Einstein, Albert Bonanza 1954 377 pages H UM1-51 $10.95 Presence of the Past, The Sheldrake, Rupert Vintage 1988 391 pages P Morphic resonance. UM1-52 $2.50 One Two Three...Infinity Gamow, George Bantam 1947 340 pages P Facts and speculations of science. UM1-53 $2.25 Games People Play Berne, Eric MD Grove Press 1964 192 pages P The Psychology of Human Relationships UM1-54 $2.25 Undiscovered Self, The Jung, C.G. Mentor 1957 125 pages P UM1-55 $2.25 What Do You Say After You Say Hello?? Berne, Eric MD Bantam 1972 456 pages P The Psychology of Human Destiny UM1-56 $2.85 Fellowship, The Steiger, Brad Ivy 1988 195 pages P Spiritual contact between humans and outer space UM1-57 $2.85 Transformation Strieber, Whitley Avon 1989 276 pages P UM1-58 $2.85 UFO Abductors, The Steiger, Brad Berkley 1988 214 pages P UM1-59 $5.50 In Search of Schrodinger's Cat Gribbin, John Bantam 1984 302 pages P 'Quantum Physics and Reality'. UM1-60 $9.00 Puzzle Palace, The Bamford, James Houghton Mifflin 1982 465 pages H A report on the NSA. America's most secret agency. UM1-61 $20.00 Quest for the Past Readers Digest 1984 320 pages H Riddles from ancient man to medieval times. Very general but has excellent illustrations UM1-62 $18.00 Keepers of the Earth Caduto, Michael J. & Bruchac, Joseph Fulcrum 1988 209 pages H Native American Stories & Legends ***** HOW TO ORDER ***** +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | How | Item | | Price | Price | | Many| Number | Title | Each | Total | |-----|----------|--------------------------------------|---------|---------| | | | | | | |-----|----------|--------------------------------------|---------|---------| | | | | | | |-----|----------|--------------------------------------|---------|---------| | | | | | | |-----|----------|--------------------------------------|---------|---------| | | | | | | |-----|----------|--------------------------------------|---------|---------| | | | | | | |-----|----------|--------------------------------------|---------|---------| | | | | | | |-----|----------|--------------------------------------|---------|---------| | | | | | | |-----|----------|--------------------------------------|---------|---------| | | | | | | |-----|----------|--------------------------------------|---------|---------| | | | | | | |-----|----------|--------------------------------------|---------|---------| | | | | | | +-----+----------+--------------------------------------+---------+---------+ x SUB TOTAL | | SHIPPING/POSTAGE +---------+ SHIPPING | | $2.50 First Item +---------+ .50 Each Additional item TOTAL | | +---------+ YOUR NAME: _____________________________________________ ADDRESS: ______________________________________________ CITY, STATE: ______________________________________________ ZIP CODE: ______________________________________________ Where did you find this catalog? ________________________ _________________________________________________________ Mail check or money order for your order including shipping to: AZTEC ENTERPRISES PO Box 668 Bushkill, Pa 18324 Pennsylvania residents must add 6% sales tax. Don't forget to include your name and mailing address. Please note that prices and availability can change without notice. Used books are sold on a first come/first served basis. All items are shipped ASAP but please be patient. Delays are possible on old, out-of-print and privately printed books and reproductions. ********* NON-UFO RELATED BUT OF VALUE NONETHELESS ********* ITEM MN1-1 $2.50 (No shipping charge on this) Mortgages. For most of us they are a fact of life. They wouldn't be so bad if they weren't with us for so long. And it is slightly depressing when we learn that we will pay back over $300,000.00 on a $100,000.00 loan (30 years at 10%)! Yes, most of us need them, but there is a way to save thousands of dollars on that payback. A way most lenders won't tell you about because, after all, that's their profit! But it's true! You can save hundreds or thousands of dollars without refinancing your existing mortgage. The process is easy and simple. You aren't obligated to make additional payments to your lender and if you do the money is credited to your account. This is NOT a gimmick and it IS legal. Currently, there is a company in my area that is charging $50.00 for this information. Information that is freely available if you know the right questions to ask and whom to ask. But we at Aztec Enterprises feel that this too is a rip off so we have done the research and are offering this same information to you for only $2.50 which covers the cost of reproduction, handling and postage. Yes, only Two Dollars and Fifty cents (that's not a misprint). For $2.50 you'll receive: HOW TO PAY OFF YOUR MORTGAGE FASTER AND SAVE THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS WHAT YOU SHOULD KNOW ABOUT PRIVATE MORTGAGE INSURANCE and WHAT YOU SHOULD KNOW ABOUT CREDIT LIFE INSURANCE All three documents are included for $2.50 and all three will show you how you can save money. To order, mail a check or money order to: Aztec Enterprises P.O. Box 668 Bushkill, PA 18324 Pennsylvania residents please add 6% sales tax. EOF ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Don -- -* Don Allen *- InterNet: dona@bilver.UUCP // Amiga..for the best of us. USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-) UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!vicstoy!dona 0110 0110 0110 Just say NO! Illuminati < MJ-12|Greys|TLC|CFR|FED|Bilderbergs > UN = "New World Order" Path: ns-mx!uunet!crdgw1!ge-dab!tarpit!bilver!dona From: dona@bilver.uucp (Don Allen) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy Subject: SOURCES: Book list and Abduction counselers list Message-ID: <1991Aug23.033915.16987@bilver.uucp> Date: 23 Aug 91 03:39:15 GMT Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL Lines: 313 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:1832 alt.conspiracy:6697 I got this list out of the back of a book I have just finished reading, called "Encounters", by Edith Fiore, P.H.D., and published by: Doubleday, 1989. ISBN #: 0-385-26236-1 . It's an interesting book, in my opinion. What follows is _her_ book list. I added "Confrontations" and "UFO Crash at Roswell" to the list. --+------------------------------------------------------------- Suggested Reading List --+------------------------------------------------------------- Andrews,George. "Extra-Terrestrials Among Us". St. Paul: Llewelyn,1986 Berlitz, Charles and W. L. Moore. "The Roswell Incident" New York: Grosset & Dunlap,1980 Druffel,Ann and D. Scott Rogo. "The Tujunga Canyon Contacts" Englewood Cliffs, N.J. : Prentice-Hall, 1980 Editors. "The UFO Phenomenon" . Alexandria, Va. : Time-Life Books,1987 Emenegger, Robert. "UFO's: Past, Present & Future" New York: Ballantine, 1986 Flammonde, Paris. "UFO Exist!" New York: Putnam, 1976 Fowler, Raymond E. "The Andreasson Affair" Englewood Cliffs, N.J.: Prentice-Hall,1979 Fowler, Raymond E. "Casebook of a UFO Investigator". Englewood Cliffs, N.J. : Prentice-Hall, 1982 Fry,Daniel. "The White Sands Incident". Louisville, Ky. : Best Books, 1966 Fuller,John. "Aliens in the Sky". New York: Medallion/Berkley, 1969 Fuller,John. "The Interrupted Journey" . New York: Berkley, 1966 Good,Timothy. "Above Top Secret". New York: Morrow, 1988 Hopkins,Bud. "Intruders". New York: Random House, 1987 Hopkins,Bud. "Missing Time". New York: Richard Marek, 1981 Jung, Carl G. "Flying Saucers: A Modern Myth of Things Seen in the Sky". New York: Signet Books, 1969 Keyhoe, Donald E. "The Flying Saucers Are Real!". New York: Fawcett Publications, 1950 Kinder,Gary. "Light Years". New York: The Atlantic Monthly Press, 1987 Larsen, S. J. "Close Encounters: A Factual Report on UFO's" . Milwaukee: Raintree,, 1978 Lorenzen,J., and C. E. Lorenzen. "Abducted!" New York: Berkley, 1977 Montgomery, Ruth. "Aliens Among Us". New York: Putnam, 1985 Puharich,Andrija. "URI: A Journal of The Mystery of Uri Geller". Garden City, N.Y. : Anchor/Doubleday, 1974 Randle, Kevin D. and Donald R. Schmitt. "UFO Crash At Roswell". Avon Books, New York. 1991 Rimmer, John. "The Evidence for Alien Abductions". Northamptonshire: Aquarian Press, 1984 Rogo,D. Scott,ed. "Alien Abductions". New York: New American Library, 1980 Rutledge,H. D. "Project Identification: The First Scientific Field Study on UFO Phenomenon". Englewood Cliffs, NJ.: Prentice-Hall, 1981 Sachs,Margaret. "The UFO Encylopedia". New York: Perigee/Putnam, 1980 Sagan,Carl. "Cosmos". New York: Ballantine, 1985 Sprinkle, R. Leo. "Hypnotic and Psychic Implications in the Investigation of UFO Reports". In "Encounters with UFO Occupants", edited by C. E. Lorenzen and J. Lorenzen, 256-329. New York: Berkley,1976 Steiger,Brad. "The UFO Abductors". New York: Berkley, 1988 Steiger,Brad and Francis Steiger. "The Fellowship" New York: Dolphin/Doubleday, 1988. Steiger,Brad. "The Star People". New York: Berkley, 1981 Strieber,Whitley. "Communion" . New York: Morrow, 1987 Strieber,Whitley. "Transformation: The Breakthrough". New York: Morrow, 1988 Vallee,Jacques. "Dimensions: A Casebook of Alien Contact" Chicago: Contemporary Books, 1988 Vallee,Jacques. "The Messengers of Deception". Berkeley,Calif: And/Or Press, 1979 Vallee,Jacques. "UFO Enigma: Challenge to Science". New York: Ballantine, 1966 Vallee,Jacques. "Confrontations: A Scientist's Search for Alien Contact". New York: Ballantine Books, 1990 Von Daniken, Erich. "Chariots of the Gods?". New York: Berkley, 1984 Von Daniken, Erich. "Gods From Outer Space". New York: Bantam, 1972 Walton,T. "The Walton Affair". New York: Berkley, 1978 Wilson, Clifford. "The Alien Agenda". New York: Signet/New American Library, 1988 --+------------------------------------------------------------------ Since Dr. Edith Fiore works with abductees, the following is her list of Hypnotherapists working with Abductees/Contactees . --+------------------------------------------------------------------ Aphrodite Clamar, Ph.D. Sharon Moss, Ph.D. 30 E 60th St., Suite 1107 2947 Eastmoreland New York, NY 10022 Oregon,OH 43616 (212) 988-8042 (419) 691-4926 Beverly J. Carter June Parnell, Ph.D. 4491 South Yates 2219 Rainbow Ave. Denver, CO 80236 Laramie,WY 82070 (303) 794-7626 (307) 742-3394 Ann Druffel June Steiner 257 Sycamore Glen 987 University Ave., Suite 6 Pasadena, CA 91105 Los Gatos,CA 95030 (213) 256-8655 (408) 395-9209 Stephen Field, Ed.D. Jo Stone, MFCC 800 Oak Grove, Suite 207 P.O. Box 2828 Menlo Park, CA 94025 Los Angeles, CA 90078 (415) 325-46788 Edith Fiore, Ph.D. Richard Sigismund 20688 Fourth St. 1557 9th St. Saratoga,CA 95070 Boulder, CO 80302 (408) 867-1100 (303) 447-9170 Josie Hadley Thomas J. Zinser, Ed.D. 2443 Ash St., Suite D 2041 Raybrook SE Palo Alto, CA 94306 Grand Rapids, MI 49506 (415) 321-6419 (616) 957-3168 Richard Haines, Ph.D. Tisha Hallet P.O. Box 880 450 San Antonio Rd. Los Altos,CA 94023-0880 Suite 27 Palo Alto, CA 94306 (415) 857-0638 James Harder, Ph.D. Barbara Levy, Ph.D 2800 Hilgard St. 317 Eureka St. Berkeley,CA 94709 San Francisco, CA 94114 (415) 848-6043 (415) 826-2250 (415) 751-3971 Linda Marie Martin Mary Ellen Trahan, Ph.D. 152 Olive Springs Rd. 205 Tanner St. Soquel,CA 95073 Carrollton,GA 30117 (408) 479-3493 (404) 834-6393 Jeffrey Mishlove, Ph.D. Raymond Moody, M.D. 48 St. Francis La. 205 Tanner St. San Rafael, CA 94901 Carrollton,GA 30117 (415) 456-2532 (404) 834-6393 Sue Street, Ph.D. Patricia Shaw, Ph.D. University of South Florida 225 S. Meramec Ave., St. Petersburg Campus Suite 506 140th 7th Ave., South St. Louis, MO 63105 St. Petersburg, FL 33701 (314) 863-3588 (813) 893-9129 Keith Thompson Norma Triggs P.O. Box 5055 10 Willow Creek Mill Valley,CA 94942 Richardson,TX 75080 (404) 388-9008 Jean Mundy, Ph.D. Alice Rose, Ph.D. 33 Windward 4651 Roswell Rd. Suite East Hampton, NY 11937 I-8013 (516) 267-8896 Atlanta,GA 30342 and 105 West 13th St. (404) 255-7051 New York, NY 10011 (212) 741-1278 --+------------------------------------------------------------------ UFO Publications --+------------------------------------------------------------------ The MUFON Journal 103 Oldtowne Rd. Seguin,TX 78155 Walter Andrus Jr., is the director of MUFON. The journal contains articles about international information and research. [ Don's note: HIGHLY RECOMMENDED ] -- Flying Saucer Review (FSR) P.O. Box 12 Snodland Kent ME6 5JZ England Edited by Gordon Creighton, FSR is published quarterly. The journal features photographs and articles by an international network of UFO researchers. -- UFO Magazine 1800 S. Robertson Blvd. Los Angeles,CA 90035 This newsletter gives information about UFO news and related items of interest. [ Don's note: HIGHLY RECOMMENDED ] -- Quest: The Journal of UFO Investigation 106 Lady Ann Rd. Soothill, Batley England This magazine contains articles on the latest worldwide UFO research regarding sightings and government reports. -- Fate Magazine 3510 Western Ave. Highland Park, IL 60035 (312) 433-8100 This magazine often has articles about UFO's, personal accounts of both sightings and abductions, as well as summaries of the latest theories and information. -- The Star Beacon P.O. Box 174 Delta,CO 81416 Edited by Ann Ulrich, this newsletter presents information about UFO abductees and contactees and related topics. -- Contactee: Research of UFO's by Direct Observation P.O. Box 12 New Milford, NJ 07646 Published quarterly by Ellen Crystall, this newsletter provides information about UFO abductions, contacts and related topics. -- White Star P.O. Box 307 Joshua,CA 92252-0307 This newsletter provides channelled information about Earth changes and prophecies about UFO/ET encounters. -- Fortean Research Center P. O. Box 94627 Lincoln,NE 68509 This group investigates UFO reports and other metaphysical miracles. -- Institute for UFO Contactee Studies 1425 Steele St. Laramie, WY 82070 This organization counsels people who feel like they've had a close encounter. It sponsors an annual contactee conference each summer. -- The New York Center for UFO Research (NYCUFOR) 13 W. Houston St., Suite 1 New York,NY 10012 (212) 995-0384 Michael Luckman, the director, sees this organization as a vehicle for disseminating information about UFO's and extraterrestrials. Conferences, lectures, media presentations are the main emphasis. However, there is a referral service for those seeking help with problems arising from their abductions/contacts. -----EOF------------------------------------------------------------- Don -- -* Don Allen *- InterNet: dona@bilver.UUCP // Amiga..for the best of us. USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-) UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!vicstoy!dona 0110 0110 0110 Just say NO! Illuminati < MJ-12|Greys|TLC|CFR|FED|Bilderbergs > UN = "New World Order" Path: ns-mx!uunet!crdgw1!ge-dab!tarpit!bilver!dona From: dona@bilver.uucp (Don Allen) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy Subject: FILE: 3 Star Interview - Don Ecker for Paranet Message-ID: <1991Aug23.034607.17311@bilver.uucp> Date: 23 Aug 91 03:46:07 GMT Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL Lines: 457 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:1833 alt.conspiracy:6698 I pulled this off Paranet last year, and found it interesting. Any questions on this text should be addressed to Michael Corbin, as he's more familiar with all the particulars about it than I am. ------Begin Included Text ------------------------------------------- Message #16442 "ParaNet UFO" Date: 06-Apr-90 00:12 From: Don Ecker To: All Subj: 3 Star Interview To all ParaNet Members; When I uploaded the CARP.UFO report several weeks ago, I mentioned another report that I had received. The CARP.UFO report was an unsigned document, no signature, and no return address. As I stated in reference to that, I gave no credence to the report because of the manner that I received it. This report is a bit different. I did speak to the person that sent it, and am still waiting to hear back from his group. The file is an alledged interview between two men, the interviewer is under a pseudonym of Bill. The interviewee is supposed to be a retired Three Star General that undertook a favor to "Bill" to check into the UFO question. The man I spoke to is the director of this group, and even though he was aware of who I am, and the reason for my questions, he refused to put me in touch with either of the other two gentlemen "until they checked me out." I am still waiting to hear from them. Because of some of the subject matter in the report, I had a feeling that there was quite a bit of information in this report that had been deleted. According to the director I was right. He told me that "Bill" was a still active duty Full Colonel and that 3 Star was at one time Bill and his commanding officer. The deleted information is supposed to contain some very disturbing information that deals with mutilations, both animal and human, and a large number of abducted and missing children and young adults. According to the director of this group there were about 20 to 25 pages of deleted material. Also seen but of course as is usual, a number of photos that 3 Star was able to get at one point. I would rate this report as highly strange, but at this point unverifiable. At any rate here is the report and any suggestions from the members are most certainly welcome. I will use Bill for the interviewer and 3* for the interviewee. Don Ecker ***************************************************************** THE INFORMATION IN THIS REPORT HAS BEEN EDITED FOR THE REASONS AS STATED WITHIN. MUCH INFORMATION WAS DELETED FOR THE PURPOSE OF RELEASE TO THE PUBLIC. Bill> Have you read the book "The Roswell Incident"? 3*> Yes I have. Bill> What did you think of the book and just how true is it? 3*> Bill, as I promised you, I used my contacts and several favors due me over the years and I found out extremely sensitive information which absolutely verify the information as stated in the Roswell Incident. The book intrigued me as I read it. At first, I felt the facts or should I say information in the book were there just to sell it and make our Govt. out to be the bad guy...as so many books do today. However, the public has been lied to for over 40 years. This bothers me a great deal. But decisions were made decades ago. The situation in my opinion, is totally out of hand. Bill> You look concerned and sound irritated. What is wrong? 3*> Around 4 months ago I called in several favors. I was given documents, allowed to view video tape, given photographs, base locations and I was even asked to participate in the "Awareness Program"...which is to disseminate Alien contact to the public. I turned down the offer. When I did I was sort of an outcast and I found friends of 30 years had no time for me. I soon was limited to all forms of information. Hell, every time I requested anything through normal channels it was either lost or delayed for "higher approval". This was normal everyday decisions, which wer NEVER questioned before. I gave over --30-- years of faithful and loyal service to this great country of ours. Who in the hell do those political bastards think they are anyway? Bill> I don't know what to say. I feel that because I asked for the inquiry, you got into trouble. I really feel bad. I know you didn't get where you are today by taking it easy. Did you retire? 3*> You are not responsible! I kind-of knew what I might get myself into. I always had my suspicions and I to heard the rumors about alien spacecraft that crashed, bodies found, alien craft shot down, UFO evidence stored in special buildings on certain military bases. I just never really took it seriously. I know it is true. I have seen the evidence, I have seen the alien craft, the frozen bodies from the Roswell site and I have seen on video tape, the live alien which is a guest of the U. S. Govt. To answer your last question, yes I did retire. Bill> Could you give some specific information on the Aliens, what they want, the govt. involvement, the reason why we have not officially been told about alien involvement in our society and why all of the many "strange" things or happenings associated with UFO sightings and people-contact with aliens? 3*> There have been several crashes of UFOs over the years. From all documentation and information available that I have seen with my own eyes as well as the physical evidence, this is in answer to your questions. 1. The aliens really do not have any sort of invasion planned for this planet. Aliens have visited this planet off and on for thousands of years. Our U.S. guest is over 300 years old. There are both "good and bad" aliens just as there are good and bad humans. They are not all that different from us. The aliens utilize around 55% of their brain capacity or ability. The aliens do have DNA, just like we do. The alien which is the guest of the U.S. Govt. is 5 feet 3 inches tall and weights 96 pounds. Large head (no hair) large slanted eyes. Some of the aliens' abilities include moderate telepathy and telekinisis. The purpose of alien visitation to this planet is one of curiosity and scientific research. Not world domination as some would have you believe. Cattle and humans have been used in alien and U.S. research for various biological applications. Most humans are not hurt in this research and experimentation. Some however, have died due to complications and down-right carelessness. Several cross-breed "young" have been born to both human females and alien females. We as humans are fully biological compatible with most visiting aliens. Some we are not. More that one type or specie of alien has visited this planet. They are listed by category...this information I could not retrieve. 2. The U. S. Govt. and the British ahve made secret treaty agreements with the aliens in exchange for technology and so-called recon missions during times of human conflict. The aliens have basically agreed not to concern themselves with the wars or conflicts of humans. Not to interfere in society. Let the Govts. rule and decide. Exactly what the aliens get in return was not exactly made clear or available. Also, there are special teams which eradicate, discredit, harass and trump-up charges to control humans which experience any visitations from aliens, or make verifiable UFO sightings. This is one of the reasons I retired. It's too much for any govt. to impose upon the civilian population like this. 3. Many of the strange happenings which people experience with UFO sightings can be one of two things. First, simply an overactive and wishful imagination. Second and foremost is the influence of the vast mental power of the alien visitors. In the reports and experiments conducted with live aliens, they have an incredible power of telepathic suggestion. Combine this with their telekentic abilities and just about anyone can be some-what directed to do or think just about anything. Did I cover all of your questions? Bill> One more and you'll be done. Why all the secrecy from day one about the alien contact, the Roswell Incident, UFOs etc.? 3*> The Roswell Incident happened at a very hectic time. World problems and domestic matters drew priority. Make no mistake, Pres. Truman and later Pres. Eisenhower gave specific direct orders to keep everything and I mean everything top secret. At that time, all alien (known as EBE) information became departmentalized and dispersed on a need to know only basis. I as well as others heard rumors and pursued our career with no further thought to the matter. Also consider the fact that even with today's high technology we still don't know all of the propulsion system, craft manufacture and so forth. The most recent information that I did manage to receive before I was cut off is that the alien craft has more-or-less been copied by top scientific experts and is functional. The "special group" assigned to oversee the alien situation and other govt. VIPs agree to gather all of the technology possible and put it to use for the benefit of the USA. I really wonder what other motives are there. One very important thought about reasons for secrecy are common religioius values and beliefs. Most of the world religions (especially in the US) would tumble. This in turn would cause panic and chaos. Something not wanted or needed in any time. Look at the big lie the Federal Govt. has created, promoted swore to and fed to the public over the past 42 years. Even the Presidents of the US from 1947 to present day has lied about this situation. Talk about a cover up? If this information would ever get out, many people from the President down would be removed from office. Many would go to jail in one form or another. My information led me to other more graphic reasons that I really don't want to discuss. This whole situation is fantastic enough and the imnplications are endless. The "awareness program" that I mentioned earlier was designed to inform the public about alien contact, landings, crashes, the Roswell Incident, UFOs and the govt. All of this is filtered to the public in a systematic, logical way. This is coupled with the increased alien--human abductions and contacts. This is a joint govt. and alien program. If done correctly, there will be extremely little or no panic and no resistance. The world govts. will retain control and chaos is avoided. Bill> Thank you very much for your time and this timely information. 3*> Now that I have found this information out, I wonder about everything I could not access or was prevented from learning when I turned down the position on the "asareness program"? Bill> I know that I am pushing it a bit here but could you go into some of the topics that seem to be eating away at you? 3*> Lets take a break from this interview for now. Its after 11:00 PM and I'm tired. I'll give you a call in a few days and we will go from there. Bill> It sounds good to me too. I've got a lot of work to do in the morning so I better call it quits for now. ================================================================= This is the end of part one. As this is a long interview, I will continue with the second part tomorrow. As they say, "Stay tuned." Don --- FD 1.99c * Origin: ParaNet Alpha-Delta < sm > The Data Base (1:30163/22) Message #16715 "ParaNet UFO" Date: 07-Apr-90 21:43 From: Don Ecker To: All Subj: Part II 3 * This is the second and final installment of the purported interview with a retired 3 Star General, being interviewed by what was described to me as a still active duty Full Colonel interested in the subject of UFOs. Now prior to continuing with this, allow me to make an observation. Since I uploaded part one of this file, and with the upload of the previous file -- CARP.UFO-- I have received several E-Mail notes asking me why I have put out such outlandish and paranoid files. I will answer like this. First, I do not believe that any of us here have a really good and solid idea of just what is happening in the bizarre world of UFOs. Since I have started to explore this thing several years ago, believe me when I tell you that I have experienced most of the angles of this subject. Everything from the Space-Brothers are here to save us from ourselves, tales of ET love affairs with the likes of the ledgendary Semjase ( now that is one ET I would LOVE to meet! ) to tales of "Their here eating us!!" to the Leader of the free world selling drugs to support MJ-12!!!! What this all boils down to is a hell of alot of rhetoric and damn little proof. Oh, there is some proof to be sure, ie mutilated cows, ( you ain't lived till you have been up to your elbows in one ) scars on alledged abductee's ( one gentleman told me that he turned gay after his 16th birthday because of repeated abductions. he was tired of being forced to copulate with alien females ) landing traces ( hard baked soil compacted inches, something damn heavy had set down on it ) and tales from dozens of people, living in some cases a whole continent apart ( with the same information in uncanny detail ). OK, what does this mean? In my opinion, it means that SOMETHING damn strange IS INDEED ONGOING..... so, that means that the only way to find out is investigate and investigate some more. Knowledge is power, so the reason I have uploaded this files is that MAYBE someone out there in computer land, ( and you would be really suprised where all ParaNet DOES GO ) will have a missing piece of the puzzle, and better yet will contact one of we happy little band of investigators -- with PROOF .................... and by the way, to those good meaning folks that have written me email, just because I put something up here, it does not mean that I think this is what really is happening. Always read what I have to say about the file in advance. In this case, I stated that there is HIGH STRANGENESS in this one, BUT NO PROOF THAT IT IS LEGITIMATE. ***************************************************************** Part II of the 3 * interview. JULY 14, 1989 Bill> Thank you for agreeing to a second interview on this topic. Did you enjoy your trip to the mountains? 3* > Yes my wife and I had a wonderful time. Bill> What is bothering you so much about the alien situation? 3* > As I mentioned before, there have been several UFO crashes, not just the one in Roswell, New Mexico. Look at the documents I brought with me. The photos are quite explicit to the CARGO OF SOME OF THE UFOs. Bill> Why are there children aboard these crafts!? My God! You don't mean that the aliens are snaching our kids? What for?? 3* > There are over a million missing children every year in the US alone. Now, not all of them have been taken by aliens. The aliens take about 2,200 children a year from the US and other countries. Its all right there in the report attached to the three photos. The rest of the missing children are the result of mankind's dark side. You know what I mean. It's in the paper every day. The children are used in several ways; biological, to educate and return, experimentation, disease study. The same as adults. Bill> Adults are one matter, but leave the children alone. I am very bothered by this information. According to the report, implants are being used on the people that are taken aboard UFOs and returned. Some of these implants are microscopic in size (and smaller) and influence the growth, function and learning capabilities of the individual. This is a very detailed report. Could I have a copy? 3* > No, Sorry but you know our agreement was that you did not get to keep or copy any paperwork. As well as the other matters we discussed. Bill> That you did! I will keep my word, don't worry. 3* > I would like to mention a little bit more of why the public have not been told the truth. Lets run through the whole thing rather quickly. 1. Security/Fear Factor; Everyone feels safe knowing that the US is one of the dominate powers on Earth. Right? The Human race is in control and science will solve it all. The simple fact is--if you take away the security of people it is replaced with fear! Fear is the first step to chaos. Just imagine what would happen if there was an announcement that the govts. are no longer in control, we have aliens living among us, they have kidnapped our people, used them as guinea pigs, killed them, manipulated our culture, tampered with our food, created new diseases to study on us, have interbred with us and there isn't a damn thing we can do about it. Now, how do you think the public would react? 2. The fact that the Govt. have been lying, covering up the truth, have given permission for abductions and experiments on the public. Keep in mind that the agencies involved are highly covert, funded very well and have almost absolute power (life and death) over anyone who interferes. How do you think the public will react? 3. Cures for certain diseases, free electrical power, pollution free energy, no longer a need for fossil fuels, abundant food and water for everyone. All of this has been possible for many years now. What would happen if this technology was turned loose to the public? The tech report showed that within the first year over 18 million people out of work. The monetary system would collapse and all of the other problems that go along with it. A REAL POSSIBILITY OF A GLOBAL NUCLEAR CONFLICT........ALL OUT OF FEAR!! Is it really worth the chance? Bill> What you say does make sense when you think about it. What is going on with the sudden surge in UFOs, aliens, abductions and the like? Is this part of the awareness program? 3* > Yes it is. The awareness program calls for the funding of movies, series on TV, specials and books. All of the "front" money will filter its way to fund a TV series or movie if it is deemed worthy of friendly, helpful alien contact. An idea is passed along to the big named producers and directors and if it takes hold, everything will fall in place and the funding starts. It is really unique how it all works. Now way to trace it to the govt. and the people involved truely believe it is their own creative work. Everyone gets into the act and no problems. After the movie hits the public, the reaction and interest of the masses are carefully monitored. Abductions of humans are both random and selective. Influential people are selected to either -- explain and guide the public or to serve some political need or requirement. UFO sightings increase when needed to draw the attention of the public. You must keep in mind that the mere mention of UFOs, aliens and the like will draw weird looks, rumors and make people believe that you have a mental problem, not playing with a full deck of cards and so forth. People will make fun of you and will laugh at you! THIS IS THE MOST IMPORTANT ASPECT. AND WHO WANTS TO BE LAUGHED AT WHEN THEY ARE SERIOUS? The result is not one will say anything unless there are many witnesses. The unique thing about this subject is people don't want to believe. The general feeling is that mankind is all. There is nothing else but God and Country. This is what most people believe. I am not disputing or disagreeing with anything. I just find it amazing that people in general are so damn stupid and stubborn. Let alone that many are so pompous and self-rightous about their religion and self image. Do these people have a rude awaking someday! It can surely be said that we are not alone in this universe. Bill> How large are UFOs? What type oulsion system do the crafts use? do you have any photographs I could look at? 3* > The alien crafts are disc, triangle, oblong cigar shaped. The range from 30 ft in dia. for the smaller recon discs to over 730 ft in dia. for the larger "mother" discs or the flying saucer, if you will. The triangle shaped crafts are 210 ft. in dia. This does not seem to change as you can see in the photos which show 3 different triangle crafts which all measure the same and are identical in shape and appearance. The oblong cigar shaped craft is the real big one of the three. The only one ever found by the military in the late 60's measured 1,100 ft. long with a circumference of 310 ft. Take a look at this photo and read the report attached. The information gathered from this one enabled us to copy the basics of alien technology. It took 20 yrs to do so. The basic propulsion system or drive is a fusion reactor which ranges in size from about the size of a medicine ball, you know the one tossed around in gym class, to about the size of a large Van or station wagon. It is a magnetic drive surrounded by an aura of bright white light. This is for the disc and triangle shaped crafts. The oblong cigar shaped craft does not have this aura of light. All crafts are almost totally silent. There is some noise. Bill> I can't believe the photos! This looks like something right out of the movies. The other report information which is stapled to the photos is very detailed. This information is both fantastic and very scary! I wish I could share this proof that I am now holding in my hands. I know, I won't ask again. You have to get this evidence back where it belongs before it is noticed missing, don't you? 3* > Yes I do. If this documentation ever got out I am sure several individuals would be terminated. The powers to be have a systematic method and program that deals with documentation, verification and termination of information and personnel. The most important asset to the Govt. on the subject of aliens, UFOs, cover-up story and the like is simply the "OVERALL PROJECTION OF PEOPLE THAT HAVE UFO EXPERIENCES IS ONE OF FANTASY, DELUSIONS, MIS-CONCEPTIONS, UNRELIABLE KOOKS AND CRACK-POTS AND DOWN RIGHT LIARS." Also keep in mind that the news reporters and the news media in general, poke fun at individuals with their quirk smile and light attitude about the whole thing. Matters can be documented. The proof is out there and is available. Many people must come down off their high horse and open their eyes. it is no shame to admit that you are wrong. No one knows everything and no one should be expected to. Bill> It seems to me that you have talked to several people about this subject and the outcome has been negative? At least as you describe the general attitude earlier. Maybe we ought to wrap this issue up? 3* > I really hate to be sour about this subject but the people of this planet have a God given right to the truth. Many people will not believe what has been stated herein. Many questions are raised and can not be answered. Certainly not to the satisfaction of many. Until the day comes when the big announcement and/or experience happens to you --the individual--you will be too busy and skeptical. Just like I was! Bill> Thank you for everything you have done for me. As I agreed to do earlier, I will edit out the graphic details and other information you requested to cover you identity and prevent the people who helped you obtain the documentation from being suspected. 3* > I am well aware that there are no guarantees when this informatioon hits the media. I just hope that the people involved with this whole UFO, alien, and Govt. connection will come forward and let the world know. I feel that mankind will become mature enough to think before acting in the coming decade of the 1990's. ************************END OF FILE**************************** END OF TRANSCRIPTION FROM MASTER TAPE--EDITED AS PER AGREEMENT--- ( from the hard copy---- D. E. ) --- FD 1.99c * Origin: ParaNet Alpha-Delta < sm > The Data Base (1:30163/22) -----End of included text-------------------------------------------------- Don -- -* Don Allen *- InterNet: dona@bilver.UUCP // Amiga..for the best of us. USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-) UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!vicstoy!dona 0110 0110 0110 Just say NO! Illuminati < MJ-12|Greys|TLC|CFR|FED|Bilderbergs > UN = "New World Order" Path: ns-mx!uunet!wupost!usc!rpi!crdgw1!ge-dab!tarpit!bilver!dona From: dona@bilver.uucp (Don Allen) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy Subject: SIGHTING REPORT 2: Australia Message-ID: <1991Aug23.035411.17509@bilver.uucp> Date: 23 Aug 91 03:54:11 GMT Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL Lines: 36 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:1834 alt.conspiracy:6699 Article #: 3 From: UFO INFO SERVICE Date Sent: 06-17-1986 Subject: 1978 NEW ZEALAND ALERT SOURCE: AP AUCKLAND, NEW ZEALAND DATE: 02 JANUARY 1979 - SIGHTING DATE 21 DECEMBER 1978 A television news team from Melbourne, Australia says it filmed a UFO on Saturday night while flying over the Kaikoura region of New Zealand's South Island. Aviation authorities reported that the UFO was apparently tracked by radar as well, and the Royal New Zealand Air Force put a Skyhawk jet fighter on special standby alert. The pilot of the news team's plane said he first noticed a bright white light about 20 miles ahead, and "It appeared to stay still until we got within 10 miles, then it turned with us as I changed course. It then went above us and circled and came down beneath us. It was making definite movements in relation to us." PHOTOGRAPH: AP. UFO filmed by New Zealand news team. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Don -- -* Don Allen *- InterNet: dona@bilver.UUCP // Amiga..for the best of us. USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-) UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!vicstoy!dona 0110 0110 0110 Just say NO! Illuminati < MJ-12|Greys|TLC|CFR|FED|Bilderbergs > UN = "New World Order" Path: ns-mx!uunet!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!usc!rpi!crdgw1!ge-dab!tarpit!bilver!dona From: dona@bilver.uucp (Don Allen) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy Subject: SIGHTING REPORT 1: Australia Message-ID: <1991Aug23.035158.17432@bilver.uucp> Date: 23 Aug 91 03:51:58 GMT Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL Lines: 58 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:1835 alt.conspiracy:6700 Article #: 1 From: UFO INFO SERVICE Date Sent: 06-17-1986 Subject: 1978 AP PILOT DISAPPEARS SOURCE: AP MELBOURNE, AUSTRALIA DATE: 25 OCTOBER 1978 AUSTRALIAN PILOT DISAPPEARS AFTER REPORTING CHASE BY UFO'S Boats and aircraft have found no trace of the 20-year old Australian pilot who disappeared with his plane on Saturday night after radioing that he was being chased by a UFO. Frederick Valentich was on a 125 mile training flight in his single engine Cessna 182 along the coast of Bass Strait when he told air traffic controllers in Melbourne that he was being buzzed by a UFO with 4 bright lights about 1000 feet above him. Controllers said his last message was taped and was: "It's approaching from due east towards me. It seems to be playing some sort of game... flying at a speed I can't estimate. It's not an aircraft. It's...It is flying past. It is a long shape. I cannot identify more than that. It's coming for me right now." A minute later: "It seems to be stationary. I'm also orbiting and the thing is orbiting on top of me also. It has a green light and a sort of metallic light on the outside." Valentich then radioed that his engine was running roughly. His last words were: "It is not an aircraft." The Australian Air Force said it had received 11 reports from people along the coast who said they saw UFOs on Saturday night, but the Transport Department was skeptical. Ken Williams, a spokesman for the department, said, "It's funny all these people ringing up with UFO reports well after Valentich's disappearance. It seems people often decide after the event, they too had seen strange lights. But although we can't take them too seriously, we can never discourgae such reports when investigating a plane's disappearance." Some Transport Dept officials have speculated that Valentich became disoriented and saw his own lights reflected in the water, or lights from a nearby island, while flying upside down. Valentich's father, Guio, said his son used to study UFOs "as a hobby using information he had received from the Air Force. He was not the kind of person who would make up stories. Everything had to be very correct and positive for him. The fact that they have found no trace of him really verifies the fact that UFOs could have been there." Guio Valentich said he hoped his son hadn't crashed but had been taken by a UFO. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Don -- -* Don Allen *- InterNet: dona@bilver.UUCP // Amiga..for the best of us. USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-) UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!vicstoy!dona 0110 0110 0110 Just say NO! Illuminati < MJ-12|Greys|TLC|CFR|FED|Bilderbergs > UN = "New World Order" Path: ns-mx!uunet!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!usc!rpi!crdgw1!ge-dab!tarpit!bilver!dona From: dona@bilver.uucp (Don Allen) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy Subject: SIGHTING REPORT 3: Australia Message-ID: <1991Aug23.035544.17652@bilver.uucp> Date: 23 Aug 91 03:55:44 GMT Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL Lines: 57 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:1836 alt.conspiracy:6701 21-Jan-88 16:31 MST SYDNEY, Australia (AP) -- Police said Thursday they received two reports of unidentified flying objects, one of which looked like a huge egg cup, and that they were treating the matter seriously. Four members of a family said the object shaped like an egg cup pursued their car along a remote stretch of outback highway Wednesday morning, plucked it from the ground and covered it in ash, police reported. Faye Knowles told police her speech and that of her sons changed during the encounter on the highway. Crewmen of a tuna boat 50 miles away said a UFO buzzed their vessel a few minutes later and their voices become unintelligible. "We were a little bit skeptical at first, but after investigating we are treating the reports very seriously," said Jim Furnell, a police sergeant in South Australia state. He said forensic scientists would examine the black powdery ash found inside and outside Mrs. Knowles' car. She told police she was driving on the Nullabor Plain from Perth in Western Australia when she first saw a glowing object in her rear window at 2:45 a.m. Wednesday. "It apparently picked the car up off the road, shook it quite violently and forced the car back with such pressure that one of the tires was blown," Furnell said. "While this was happening the family said their voices were distorted and it was as if they were talking in slow motion." He said the crewmen of the tuna boat could not have known about Mrs. Knowles' experience when they reported a UFO sighting in the Great Australia Bight. Keith Basterfield of UFO Research Inc., an international organization that records such sightings, said "it will certainly be the most physical of encounters ever recorded in Australia" if the reports are confirmed. A spokesman at the Royal Australian Air Force base in Edinburgh, South Australia, said he was not aware of any military aircraft in the area at the time. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Don -- -* Don Allen *- InterNet: dona@bilver.UUCP // Amiga..for the best of us. USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-) UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!vicstoy!dona 0110 0110 0110 Just say NO! Illuminati < MJ-12|Greys|TLC|CFR|FED|Bilderbergs > UN = "New World Order" Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!usc!apple!applelink.Apple.com!showen From: showen@applelink.Apple.com (Don Showen) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy Subject: Re: ALIENS: THE BIG _LIE_ !!! Message-ID: <15762@goofy.Apple.COM> Date: 23 Aug 91 16:28:48 GMT References: <7608@ns-mx.uiowa.edu> Sender: usenet@Apple.COM Organization: Apple Computer Lines: 8 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:1837 alt.conspiracy:6714 Zachary Harman obeys his mental programming and repeats it >It's about time that the UFO community wakes up and realizes that the >whole Aliens thing is a big LIE. Do you remember what implant station you graduated from? Don Showen Path: ns-mx!uunet!psinntp!uupsi!dorsaidm!magician From: magician@dorsai.com (Bill Carbonelli) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Looking for "Alien Visitors"-type Newsletter... Message-ID: Date: 24 Aug 91 07:12:03 GMT Organization: The Dorsai Diplomatic Mission ( Mail address : user@dorsai.com ) Lines: 18 Hi folks out there in Usenet Land... I'm looking for an address for a Newsletter that i used to get (how i got on the mailing list, i'll never know. Must've bought one too many gadget from DAK, i guess)... It was a self-published thing by/for "Alien visitors"... Had some very nice articles and poetry and stuff in it (which is why i read the stuff... Very entertaining in a surreal sort of way)... The publisher/editor used to speak of a man called "Rain Maker" or "Rain Walker", who will come to whevever, and because he's there the place starts to rain (you figure it out)... Well, to make a long story short, if anyone has a contact address for this group/newsletter, please Mail it over to me (please don't send it here, as i really don't scan new messages very often)... Many thanks in advance, and have a good one... Bill C. (Internet Mail to: "Magician@Dorsai.Com") Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!unix.cis.pitt.edu!dsinc!bagate!cbmvax!amix!anuurn!ffoire From: ffoire@anuurn.UUCP (Jeff Orrok) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy Subject: Re: FILE: OH Krill part 3 Message-ID: <367@anuurn.UUCP> Date: 24 Aug 91 22:21:14 GMT References: <1991Aug8.055219.24384@bilver.uucp> Followup-To: alt.alien.visitors Organization: the Hani homeworld. (Wilmette, IL) Lines: 16 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:1839 alt.conspiracy:6727 [ Krill part 3 ...] > sides of the same coin. This is verified in the book "The > Undiscovered Country," by Stephen Jenkins. Jenkins was told by Most interesting. This is also the title of Star Trek VI. Anyone have a version of the screenplay? Don't spoil it, just tell us if it has anything to do with this book. je -- "The genius of you Americans is that you never make clear-cut stupid moves, only complicated stupid moves which make us wonder at the possibility that there may be something to them which we are missing." -- Gamal Abdel Nasser --ffoire@anuurn.home.nwu.edu --ffoire@anuurn.chi.il.us Path: ns-mx!uunet!munnari.oz.au!metro!socs.uts.edu.au!syzygy!axolotl From: axolotl@socs.uts.edu.au (Iain D. Sinclair) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Who's seen a 'Grey' ? Keywords: anyone in this newsgroup? Message-ID: Date: 24 Aug 91 13:18:10 GMT References: <1991Aug20.054043.20345@cbnewse.cb.att.com> Reply-To: axolotl@socs.uts.edu.au Organization: University of Technology, Sydney, Australia (standard disclaimer) Lines: 30 sara@nstar.rn.com (Sara Gordon) writes: >so, if anyone had seen a grey or any of the OTHER types, do you think they >would subject themselves to the examinations here, which almost rival those >on the ships??? :) In this new hardback I flick-read in a store today, apparently a 'grey' wandered into some Spanish doctor's office and asked for an examination. It looked nearly human, except on close examination. It then proceeded to tell the doc that humanity is really screwing up our environment, and that you should stop, and we're telling you this because the important people won't listen. (The book was _Alien [?]_ by [?] Good.) (Why am I posting this..?) -- Iain Dick Sinclair ., +61 2 2812552 axolotl@socs.uts.edu.au '` +61 2 3301807 (fax) Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!samsung!emory!att!att!fang!tarpit!bilver!dona From: dona@bilver.uucp (Don Allen) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Communion Question Message-ID: <1991Aug24.030510.3456@bilver.uucp> Date: 24 Aug 91 03:05:10 GMT References: <74109.28B171AE@paranet.FIDONET.ORG> Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL Lines: 76 Mike Corbin writes: > >Finally, I read the "Farewell Communion" crap. What a load! Strieber is >definitely not working for the interests of his followers in that article. He >tells them that there is a time when the lamb must lay down with the lion and >surrender. In my opinion, he is so much as telling them to submit to whatever >it is that wants them and to forget further questions or concerns. A little >dangerous, I must say. Anyway, perhaps the reason that he hates mainstream >UFOlogists so much is that exposure of Strieber's loyalty to whatever agency >abductions represent is too great. > >Mike > >-- >Michael Corbin - via FidoNet node 1:104/422 >UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name >INTERNET: Michael.Corbin@p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG Yep.... I posted a snippet of this "Farewell" letter in a follow-up here but it looks like it got 'buried' amonsgt all the replies to the Strieber thread(s). I saw on PN a few weeks ago that it was probably the same snippet that was posted..perhaps for people reading about Strieber, we should perhaps re-introduce this snippet again here...or not. Frankly, I'm not really into a prolonged lengthy dissertation on Whitley Strieber -BUT- it may be necessary to persist with this just a bit longer so everyone following this thread doesn't get the *idea* that we are bashing the Whit for no idle reason. It may be apparent as daylight to both you and I WHY we have our opinions about Strieber the way that we do, but in re-viewing the 3 or 4 extant threads going on now; I can see why others reading this may just view it (from their perspective) that we are just engaging in "character assasination". First, I think we have to establish that Strieber has been working with William L. Moore for over a year (and possibly more). I don't think it's _enough_ that you and I implicitly understand what *that* means.. We do..but it will take some more explanation on our part to show connectivity between cause and effect (ie...Strieber alone on "Communion" and Strieber/Moore on "Majestic"). To properly show would require that we establish William L. Moore's heinous part in the Bennewitz affair (Kirtland)...I have Bill English's various letters to Moore about this on hand,Moore's reactions, etc.. Any recommendations, or are you (like me) burnt out on explaining the Moore/Shandera/Strieber connection? I don't have any problem that Strieber may have had a valid experience.. I _do_ have a problem with his gathering a following by his insertion of his address in his books..his invitation to write to the author..and his (now) abrupt change where he has left his band of followers "rode hard and put up wet" (abandoned). This simply is NOT responsible behaviour for someone who is very much in the public eye and who has performed a dis-service to those who wrote in volumious letters of help. My (very personal) *opinion* is that somewhere between "Communion" and "Majestic", that Strieber has either been neutralized by Moore, or has in part, been in service to the "UFO working Group" to carry out an agenda of dis-information. Don -- -* Don Allen *- InterNet: dona@bilver.UUCP // Amiga..for the best of us. USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-) UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!vicstoy!dona KING George Bush?? Just say NO! UFO's in commercials....is the GOVT getting us ready for OCTOBER of 1992? Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!samsung!emory!att!att!fang!tarpit!bilver!dona From: dona@bilver.uucp (Don Allen) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: One More Thought On Strieber Message-ID: <1991Aug24.032335.3590@bilver.uucp> Date: 24 Aug 91 03:23:35 GMT References: <74113.28B171B6@paranet.FIDONET.ORG> Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL Lines: 50 In article <74113.28B171B6@paranet.FIDONET.ORG> Michael.Corbin@p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Michael Corbin) writes: > > > From: jdm@cadence.com (Joe Mastroianni) > > Date: 18 Aug 91 00:40:50 GMT > > Organization: Cadence Design Systems, Inc. > > Message-ID: <1991Aug18.004050.29644@cadence.com> > > Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors > > > > UFO examiner team from a well known independently funded > > organization > > covers up valid data revealing some facts about the nature and > > origin > > of the visitor phenomenon. The motive for this is to keep the > > profits > > rolling in. > >I have heard this theory before regarding the team that made up Project >Blue Book. They kept the reports mysterious just to assure continued funding >for the project. > A few weeks back, I posted over 100k of Blue Book reports that Don Berliner had compiled from his investigation when he had the notion (at the time) to write a detailed book on the "missing reports". He released his work into the public domain when he decided not to write the book.. Also, I've read accounts where Project Blue Book had an abyssmal track record on files keeping..apparently there was no case correlations, no cross-referencesno follow-up to speak of on related cases by the Air Force or other military branches that may have been involved. Berliner goes into some explanation of this in the files I posted earlier. Hmmmm...I note that the military wasn't lackadasial when it came to vehemently denying that Project Bluebook Report #13 (Grudge) existed.. I had to laugh when I read somewheres that the "official" reason given by the military/Govt for _why_ the reports jumped from #12 to #14 was that (they felt) that #13 was "superstitious"... :-) I guess the military/Govt thinks that we fell off the cabbage truck yesterday and can't add 2 + 2 together...this is really a crock. Don -- -* Don Allen *- InterNet: dona@bilver.UUCP // Amiga..for the best of us. USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-) UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!vicstoy!dona KING George Bush?? Just say NO! UFO's in commercials....is the GOVT getting us ready for OCTOBER of 1992? Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!cis.ohio-state.edu!pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu!linac!att!att!fang!tarpit!bilver!dona From: dona@bilver.uucp (Don Allen) Newsgroups: alt.activism,alt.conspiracy,alt.alien.visitors Subject: Rainbow Declaration Pt1 - Humans and Aliens Message-ID: <1991Aug25.010222.12158@bilver.uucp> Date: 25 Aug 91 01:02:22 GMT Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL Lines: 896 Xref: ns-mx alt.activism:15043 alt.conspiracy:6734 alt.alien.visitors:1843 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- This information is presented for your persusal and is a continuation of my policy of informing the public what is currently available. The content of this information does NOT necessarily reflect the personal views of the poster,nor should the views,opinions,statements or claims represented in the following be accepted by anyone reading these texts at *face* value. If this interests you, please endeavor to research it yourself and investigate it to *your* satisfaction, and as such I will leave it in your hands to either prove it or de-bunk it :-) As I do not have a great amount of time available to pursue follow-ups exclusively, comments to me should be directed to dona@bilver.uucp in mail. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Message #1235 - INFO.PARANET Date : 14-Aug-91 7:51 From : ParaNet(sm) Information Service To : All Subject : Rainbow Declaration, (Long) The following is being posted by request. It is very long (12 messages). It is not copyrighted according to the author, John Brandenburg, and he encourages that everyone pass it around. It is being reproduced in its entirety as it appeared in the MUFON Proceedings. ParaNet makes not claim to its accuracy or content, and in no way endorses the material. THE RAINBOW DECLARATION AND HUMAN DESTINY IN THE COSMOS by John E. Brandenburg, Ph.D. (From the MUFON Symposium Proceedings) John E. Brandenburg, Ph.D. John E. Brandenburg Ph.D. is a theoretical plasma physicist living in Alexandria, Virginia. He is employed by a private scientific research firm in the Washington, D.C. area. Dr. Brandenburg received his B.A. in Physics in 1975 from Southern Oregon, A Masters in Applied Science from the University of California at Davis in 1977 and a Ph.D. in Plasma Physics in 1981, also at Davis. His thesis was on confinement of a plasma of very energetic ions and cold electrons using strong magnetic fields for the purposes of controlled nuclear fusion. During his graduate studies Dr. Brandenburg held a working fellowship at Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory and pursued research in the area of controlled fusion. On receiving his Ph.D., he became a staff physicist at Sandia National Laboratories, Albuquerque, New Mexico. There he performed research on controlled fusion and electron beam weapons. He left Sandia in 1984 to assume his present position. His current work involves both directed energy weapons and space defense problems. Dr. Brandenburg has been involved in investigations of the Face on Mars and other Martian objects since 1984. Together with Vincent DiPietro and Gregory Molenaar, the two pioneers in this area, he is a member of the organization Mars Research and is a co-author of Unusual Martian Surface Features Edition IV. John Brandenburg became interested in space travel and extraterrestrial life at an early age. He joined MUFON as a Consultant in Plasma Physics and is the author of the "Rainbow Declaration," a statement of principles to govern the relations of peoples of different worlds. He was a featured speaker at the MUFON 1989 International UFO Symposium in Las Vegas, NV where he presented a paper titled "The Cydonian Hypothesis." Dr. Brandenburg may be contacted at 4732 Rouge Court, Alexandria, VA 22312. THE RAINBOW DECLARATION AND HUMAN DESTINY IN THE COSMOS By John E. Brandenburg, Ph.D. ABSTRACT In this paper I will talk about the destiny of humanity in the Cosmos as it is now unfolding before us. I will also talk about the Rainbow Declaration, which is my attempt to bring together what is good and precious from the human heritage with what we now know of the Cosmos, to the end that humanity's future will be good and it will achieve its appropriate destiny. However, this paper is really about knowledge and dialogue. I. INTRODUCTION: STAR TREK OR STAR WARS? I Corinthians 13: 9-12 "For we know in part and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. When I was a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then I shall know even as also I am known." When we speak of knowledge and the human future, we are speaking of the increase of knowledge. In the future, humanity will know much more than it knows now. It will go places it has never been, do and feel things it has never before experienced. Every important aspect of this knowledge will be to learn more about the other peoples with whom we share the Cosmos. Part of that process of learning is going on now. However, this is not a scientific investigation like any other we humans have done. It is not like studying the motion of bacteria in a test tube; it is a dialogue. A dialogue is what occurs between two or more sentient beings; it is basically an exchange of information. Humanity is probably now engaged in a dialogue with peoples from other planets that orbit other stars. This dialogue has its origins in the distant past, but it seems to have only begun in earnest in the last fifty years. Many species seem to have been involved, but only a few species seem to be playing an active continuing role in the present course for this dialogue. We know something of this dialogue, which appears to be between primarily our government and the extraterrestrials. What is reported from this dialogue will be discussed in this paper; however, the reported dialogue will also be used to help create a vision of human destiny in the Cosmos. It was the consistent theme of the popular series, Star Trek, that the human race would become a great and enlightened power in the Cosmos and be joined in partnership with peoples kindred to humanity. This partnership, known as the Federation, was made up of interstellar powers more or less in agreement on the ideals of democracy, freedom, and dignity of the individual, reverence for life and even reverence to God. In this Federation, the idea of separate species of intelligence was occasionally transcended so that beings looked on each other as kindred despite their differing biological form. An equally hopeful, but somewhat darker and more mysterious, vision of the human future was seen in Star Wars. In this vision the humans had created an Evil Empire and against it a Rebel Alliance composed of humans and other species battled desperately. The theme of Star Wars was hope and the struggle between good and evil on both physical and moral planes, with good being aided by the Force. So there exist different vision of the future. It is my belief that something more like the world of Star Trek will be the ultimate destiny of humanity and that this destiny is something that we should strive for. But how will such a destiny be accomplished? Can we avoid Star Wars completely or is it also prophetic? In particular, how will our interaction, our dialogue, with more technologically advanced peoples of the Cosmos, who are already starfaring and have reportedly already arrived here, affect us and how will this shape our destiny? Is our destiny Star Wars or Star Trek. Humanity is reportedly now engaged in a dialogue with extraterrestrial peoples. Ufology exists because of a state of honest ignorance of this dialogue on the part of the public. Honest ignorance can be defined as a recognized lack of knowledge. The ufology movement is a brave vanguard of humanity that admits its ignorance of the Cosmos and those who dwell in it and seeks to erase this ignorance. Because of this we know Ufology will one day cease to exist in its present form because of new knowledge that will appear. Those in Ufology are brave not only because they risk ridicule from those who cling to the everyday, but because this is the real Cosmos we live in -- not a fairy tale -- and some pieces of knowledge we will gain we may wish we did no know. But learning unpleasant truths is a essential part of maturing. If you turn away some truths because you cannot bear them, you can never really grow up. But we in Ufology are determined to grow and mature and know. Knowledge is power, knowledge confers authority, and knowledge confers responsibility. For these reasons, governments often guard certain knowledges carefully. One of the most important concepts in our government's classification system to safeguard secrets is the concept of "need to know." Authorities decide what must be done in a situation and who must do it and then portion out, ideally, only those knowledges to each person that are necessary for them to do their job. Usually, such secrecy and portioning out of knowledge occurs in situations thought to gravely impact our nation's security and defenses. The authority given the government to restrict certain knowledge is a sacred trust that derives from its duty to defend us. But, if the government is concealing a dialogue with extraterrestrials, is it defending us from the knowledge of the E.T.'s existence, or is this secrecy only part of an effort to defend us from some subgroup of the E.T.s themselves? I think the answer is some of both, but is this consistent with democracy? In a democracy the people rule and in order to rule effectively they seek knowledge, and they seek the responsibility that goes with that knowledge. In doing this, they seek responsibility for their own destiny. It is wholly right that you in Ufology should seek knowledge of this matter. Humanity's dialogue with the extraterrestrials is a grave matter, a matter that concerns all humanity and will affect the destiny of humanity. You have a "need to know." In one sense the Ufology movement is part of the effort of humanity to gain transcendent knowledge. However, in another sense, your efforts to gain knowledge, and the responsibility that goes with it, is an effort to gain control of part of your lives and your children's lives and the destiny of your people. This is especially true since reports of deep and long-standing government involvement in this dialogue have come out. However, Ufology has succeeded to a degree in entering this dialogue between humanity and the extraterrestrials. Ufology is a player, I would argue, in the reported dialogue between humanity and the extraterrestrials. The government apparently is keeping much of this dialogue to itself. However, it is also actively sharing information, sometimes in a deliberately garbled form, but information nonetheless. Some of this sharing of knowledge seems to come from the individual human need to confide with others. Some of this knowledge appears to have been released as a result of decisions by higher authorities to create an informed constituency among the public. The cultivation of the Ufology movement's knowledge by the government represents, in my view, a crude form of democracy. In this strange experiment in government, the authorities have created a public hearing of sorts where unofficial news and views are aired and reactions considered. Ufology is the multitude who have showed up for this quasi-public hearing. However, the officials who have called this gathering are not available to answer questions. But, I think, the government pays attention to Ufology's internal debates and responses to the government sponsored leaks. No dialogue is one way, even if one side tries to make it one way. A dialogue always affects both parties, even if only one side is speaking. The act of giving information to one whom you know will receive it involves you with that person or that people. If a dialogue goes on long enough, information will be revealed inadvertently and pretense is harder to maintain. Ufology has not been a passive partner in this dialogue with the government. Ufology is speaking and will continue to speak, and the government, even if it gives appearances of stopping its ears, is actually listening. Therefore, all of you in Ufology should consider that you are part of a dialogue with the government. This is not the only dialogue going of which Ufology is a part. Ufology is actually in a dialogue with the extraterrestrials through abductees and contactees. As with the government, not all information is very reliable, but it is information. It is possible, in fact, that extraterrestrials monitor the reaction of the Ufology movement to gain some insight into humanity in general. Therefore, all of you in Ufology should consider yourselves as part of a dialogue that will influence human destiny in the Cosmos. In the remainder of this paper I will discuss three main points: (1) It is the destiny of humanity to take its place among the stars as an equal with its kindred people among the stars. In discussing this, I will discuss the nature and heritage of humanity. (2) The cradle of humanity, the Earth, with its nations and history, is a microcosm of the Cosmos and its peoples and history. I will discuss how this concept is derived and its meaning to Ufology. I will also, unfortunately, discuss the first problem in the present that can be addressed by this model: The apparent threat posed to humanity by one group of extraterrestrials, "the grays" or Reticulians and their allies. (3) Humanity should adopt the Rainbow Declaration or some similar set of principles as its ideal and in doing so will begin the journey to its destiny on the right Way, the Way of truth and light. (Reference 1) II. HUMANITY AS A SUPERTERRESTRIAL PHENOMENON PSALMS 8: 3-6 "When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and stars which thou hast ordained; What is man, that thou are mindful of him, the son of man, that thou visitest him? For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels and hast crowned him with glory and honor. Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of they hands; thou has put all things under his feet....." In order to understand human destiny one must first understand the nature and origins of humanity. Humanity is not just flesh and blood; it is partly supernatural; it is also the collective mind, dreams and cultural heritage of the human race. Physically we have changed little since the stone age, but in knowledge and technological ability we have changed enormously. We are a young race, just getting started. Our earliest civilization dates roughly from the Tigris-Euphrates Valley 6000 years ago. (Reference 2) In that 6000 years we have expanded and filled the Earth, our flesh and blood has stood on the lunar surface and returned six times. Our probes have landed on Mars and Venus. We, by proxy of similar probes, have visited every major body in the solar system from Mercury to Neptune. Four of these probes have now escaped the solar system and the gravity of the Sun and are on interstellar missions. So a little part of you, the work of your hands, is now on its way to the stars. Six thousand years is roughly 300 human generations of 20 years or 100 human lifetimes of 60 years. So this is perhaps not even a long time in human terms, but it is the twinkling of an eye in terms of the age of the Earth or even the living things on the Earth. You humans, all in all, have done magnificently. How did you do it? Did anyone help you? Let us consider what is widely reported. In Ufology, as in many other areas of life, information consists of what is reported to us by others, hopefully we can verify some of what is reported, but often we must simply consider the report and decide for ourselves whether of not we believe it. It is widely reported that humanity came into being as a result of profound and continuing contact between the human race an an unimaginably powerful extraterrestrial being. This being, or First E.T., is called in our language, God. I know and respect the fact that there are many accounts, all subtly different, of this contact, but I will chiefly consult the only account I know well, and this account is called the Bible. In this account, the First E.T. is reported to have been of staggering and all encompassing power but was at the same time compassionate towards humanity and controlled in his dealings with them. He is reported to be the creator of the Cosmos and therefore extracosmic in addition to being extraterrestrial, having created both heavens and the earth and all they contain. It is reportedly from God that humans first received their concepts of law and human identity and their place in the scheme of things. I would claim this contact has continually linked our ideas of what was good and pure and truthful to the heavens. It is because of this contact that we long to reach out to the stars and those who live there. It is in this record of contact with the First E.T. that we first encounter the human concept of universal laws, both physical and moral, and these are also associated with the stars. PSALMS, 19:1-3 "The Heavens declare the glory of God and the firmament showeth his handy work. Day unto day uttereth speech and night showth knowledge. There is no speech or language, where their voice is not heard." We also learned that there was more to reality than what is seen. HEBREWS, 11:1-3 "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. For by it the elders obtained a good report. Through faith we understand that the worlds were formed by the word of God so that things which are seen are not made of thing which do appear." We are familiar, in our modern age, of laws of physics being universal. Our sciences had their origins in astronomy and astrology. But from our accounts of contact with the First E.T., we also are informed that there are universal moral laws as well as physical ones that apply on all worlds. It is also from this record that we encounter our first recognition and warning concerning the dark side of human nature: GENESIS, 6:5 "And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the Earth and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually..." The human race is an aggressive, predatory and vigorous species. It requires the maximum effort of our intellect and compassion to control our instincts to violence and war; sometimes, perhaps often times, these are not enough. However, the First E.T. has always encouraged us to be a people of compassion and intellect. Curiously, it is from this same record of the first E.T. contact with humanity that we find reports of a possible visitation of Earth by flesh and blood extraterrestrials. These E.T.s were not only flesh and blood, but could have children by earth women, indicating they were probably extremely humanoid since they were attracted to Earth women and saw they were beautiful. Mention of this is made in Genesis 6:4. This was apparently one of many things that God saw happening on Earth that displeased Him. Perhaps even "the last straw," for it is written that He unleashed the great flood shortly after this. The flood, that primal human catastrophe, is recorded in the legends of almost every people on Earth and wiped out most of humanity, including, we can infer, those offspring of flesh and blood E.T.s. It is written, God started over with what was left. Other than this possible mention of flesh and blood E.T. contact before the flood in the Bible, which may also be mentioned in many mythologies, I have seen no credible evidence of any overt or historical record dating back to 1000 B.C. Geologically, the origin of homo sapiens is sudden, but it has been found that all distinct species seem to appear suddenly. This is called "punctuated equilibrium" in evolutionary biology. (Reference 3) Other than reportings of sightings of strange craft that occasionally appear in the historical record, I can find no evidence of influence by flesh and blood E.T.s on any historical events. What does show up is a tradition and folklore concerning goblins stealing children, tales of fairies, leprechauns, elves and spirits. This tradition may indicate some E.T. contact on the fringe of human social awareness, as has been suggested by Whitley Streiber. (Reference 4) I think, also, it reflects to a much larger extent, human imagination and love of story telling. These strange accounts also include other things which may be purely terrestrial but not really part of a reality that we understand. Though the records of events before the primal catastrophe of the Flood are difficult to understand, it remains the one significant human event that may have involved flesh and blood E.T. contact. It is worth noting that the record implies that this contact, along with many other things purely terrestrial, had disastrous consequences for the human race because of the manner in which the contact was made. It is written in Genesis 6:2: "The sons and daughters saw the daughters of men that they were very fair, and they took them wives of all which they chose..." This record implies that these unions were dictated by the "Sons of God", a term used sometimes to mean angel, and not by choice to the Earth women. These reported events, and the juxtaposition with the Flood and God's displeasure, should be remembered as we consider reports of what is occurring in our own time. It also must be remembered that according to the account of the contact with the First E.T. in the Bible, evil is not a terrestrial invention; it was present in the Cosmos eons before the first human being. The Bible and other religious records of Earth, record that both good and evil are not purely terrestrial phenomenon. Ananda Sirisena has pointed out in a two-part article in the British journal Beyond Science (now defunct) that the holy books of Buddhism remark that sense-desire, which is the source of all unhappiness, is to be found throughout the Cosmos. (Reference 5) In the Bible, it is written in Job, 15:15 "The heavens are not clean in His sight." It is also written in Revelations 12:7-9 that there was war in heaven between the Archangel Michael and his angels, and the Devil and his angels. These are only two of many examples one could name. In general, the records of our reported contact with the First E.T. report repeatedly that the Cosmos, both visible and invisible, is full of good and evil and that these forces struggle against one another, Earth being an important battleground of this Cosmic struggle. This brings us to the second widely reported E.T. contact that has influenced Earth. This being is known as Satan, Lucifer, or the Devil. Like the first E.T., he is reported to be non-corporeal. However, he is reported to be a created being and part of the Cosmos whereas God is the Creator. His powers and intellect are reported to be unimaginably great in human terms but, like ours, insignificant compared to God's. It is also reported that despite his intellectual powers, he often makes mistakes that are apparent even to humans. His first reported error was to try and stage an unsuccessful revolt against his Creator. Most of what we know about the Second E.T., Satan, comes from information reported to be from the First E.T. This record allows us to make a vivid comparison between them in two important areas: One, dialogue with humans; The First E.T. is recorded to be always truthful, though he seldom shows more knowledge than is required. In contrast, the Second E.T., Satan, is reported to be a compulsive liar and virtual inventor of treachery. It is reported he often claims to be the First E.T. and often traps victims with empty promises of forbidden knowledge and technology. Second, relationship with humanity; the First E.T. is widely reported to love the human race and all other peoples of the Cosmos as if they were his children. However, he is also reported to hold us responsible for our actions, which knowing the human race, means we occasionally are at odds. The Second E.T., Satan, is reported to be utterly contemptuous and hateful towards humans, especially those who serve him. His hostility is constant, though often expressed through treachery and attempts to corrupt, rather than through open warfare. It is reported that though the Devil hates humanity and wishes to destroy us, he cannot attack openly because of the presence of the First E.T. Therefore, we learn that absence of open attack does not always mean absence of mortal hostility. It merely means that the Cosmos is not simple, and that many factors constrain the action of its inhabitants. Humanity is thus not a purely terrestrial phenomenon. Even our science is full of knowledge known first from observation of the stars. If the record of our contract with the First E.T. are believed, humanity is the product of influences that are not only extraterrestrial but extracosmic, that is, transcending even the stars. If these reported contacts with God are correct, and many believe they are, then humanity knows these things because it knows the Being who made the Cosmos and its peoples, including ourselves. Humanity, and by this, I mean the readers themselves, are possessors of Cosmic knowledge, but they do not know it yet. However, to know something of humanity one must understand that a part of humanity, like its Creator, is extremely mysterious and some of it is unknowable. To know something of humanity is to know of its mystery and its magic. There is a part of humanity that only God himself understands. I speak here of a whole category of phenomenon with the inadequate terms "parapsychological" and "spiritual" -- that part of ourselves that is manifest in religion, and yet seems to exist apart from it. One aspect of this was termed by Jung as the collective unconscious. (Reference 6) This is the part of humanity that seems to guarantee that no knowledge can ever remain isolated in one portion of the human race, even if they never tell anyone of it. Another can be called human prescience -- that human capacity to write or speak of events still far in the future with uncanny accuracy, science fiction being a vast upwelling of this human phenomenon. No statement describing humanity could be complete without referring to this part of humanity which is mysterious and difficult to describe. Therefore, you should respect yourself and your people. You know more about the Cosmos than you realize. You are stronger and more marvelous than you know. You should not be arrogant, but you should be proud. You lack knowledge, but you are eager to learn. You are small now but you are going to become great and "becoming is superior to being." You are a young and vigorous people, just off the train and in the big city for the first time, bent on finding your fortune. So now that we have an image of humanity as it was formed and is, we can speak of the destiny of humanity in the Cosmos. THE DESTINY OF HUMANITY Hints of what our destiny will be are contained, I believe, in the record of our contact with the First E.T. who pointed us to our goal. He said in paraphrase, "someday if you follow the Way I have shown you, you can join me in the heavens of which the stars are but a shadow." God, in fact, showed Abraham the stars and said in Genesis 15:5: "And He brought him forth abroad, and said, look now towards heaven and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them. And he said, so shall thy seed be." There is also another hint, for Jesus told his disciples in Mark 16:15, "Go ye unto all the world and preach the gospel to every creature." For in the original Greek, the word for world is Cosmos, (Reference 7) meaning the whole world, the whole ordered universe. I know in myself, that humanity is going into space because it yearns to do so. The goal of its yearning is not just to see strange new worlds; it is to have fellowship with the peoples who dwell amid the stars and share truth with them. In a sense we are going into confirm truths that we already believe. That is part of the reason that Ufology exists, not just because people in Ufology are curious or concerned but also because we seek to be part of that dialogue. We have, on good account, that such a dialogue is possible, as recorded in Timothy Good's book Above Top Secret. There is an account of Sid Padrick's experience (Reference 8) where he encountered startlingly humanoid beings who were kind and respectful and who invited him to pray to God in their "consultation room." They said they worshipped the same Supreme Being we did. This reported encounter, whose positive, respectful character is such a stark contrast to most reported encounters, give us hope that we will find what we seek in the stars. But you must realize we inhabit a star already. Our star, Sol, the Sun, is a beautiful golden star from afar. Around it orbits a beautiful blue-white star of a planet called Earth, for that is what our planet looks like from afar. Venus, Jupiter, and Mars are beautiful from Earth, but I tell you when you see the Earth someday from the surface of Mars you will understand that the Earth is the most beautiful planet in the solar system, or even in a hundred solar systems. That is partly why other peoples have come here. So I will tell you I believe it is the destiny of humanity to go out into the stars and become a great nation and find its place among the stars and among the great nations that dwell in the stars; nations whose people believe in God and justice, equality, and good will as we do, and who, when they read our Bible or the Declaration of Independence, will rejoice that the same truths they know are known elsewhere and from the same source. III DYNAMICS BETWEEN PEOPLES IN THE COSMOS We have now discussed humanity and its destiny, but how will our destiny be shaped by those peoples with whom we share the Cosmos? In particular, is there some model or broad guideline to consult to understand the dynamics of politics between nations or peoples who have their genesis in different star systems? We can come up with a rough model by assuming that the laws of physics and biology are the same everywhere in the Cosmos. Once such a model of cosmic politics is formed, it can be applied to understand and predict the interactions between humanity and its fellow cosmic peoples. A model of cosmic politics can be derived from biology. We must assume that the laws of biology are universal, so that they are the same on all worlds, like the laws of physics. Since we know about the laws determining biology on Earth, we would then know about biology laws on all worlds. We must, of course, recognize from the outset that we can only gain a rough understanding at best using this method, but we must have a model and we must begin somewhere. So, we look for basic and fundamental laws rather than detailed ones. We will thus look for laws the describe forests rather than trees. Once we have identified fundamental biological laws, we then try to find laws of politics on Earth that can be derived from them. We will then have a rough model. The first law of biology can be called "the survival of the fittest." This means that all life is essentially competitive. This means those who are more intelligent, faster, stronger, more diligent, more fertile, more efficient, and more prudent will eventually dominate over those who have less of these qualities. This seems a harsh law of nature, but in some ways it is actually kind. In any case, nature is not often known to be kind or gentle. One impact of the first law of biology is that intelligence is favored in predators. On Earth, predators are generally more intelligent than their prey. They must be or their prey will outwit them and the predators will not eat. The octopus is the most intelligent of all invertebrates and it is a fierce predator. The killer whale is believed to be the smartest of the whales and it is a vicious killer of other whales. The Chimpanzee is the second smartest land animal, and its capacity for mayhem against other species and even other chimps, rivals our own. (Reference 9) Curiously, researchers were slow to recognize how murderous chimps were to each other -- fighting between tribes and occasionally killing their own young. Perhaps the researchers did not want to believe the chimps were as prone to violence as we are. Even when researchers found out the harsh facts about internal wars between chimps they were reluctant to report it. They feared it would horrify people and dry up research funding. People were not horrified; however, they were enlightened, and chimpanzee research in the wild continues. The truth makes chimps all the more fascinating and useful to study if human violence is to be understood and controlled. Another example of the correlation of intelligence and predatory behavior is the line of dinosaurs that appeared to be evolving towards something resembling humanoids before an extraterrestrial event wiped them out. (Reference 10) It is now believed that a line of small predator dinosaurs, roughly resembling miniature Tyrannosaurus Rexs, would have developed into a humanoid intelligence. They stood on two feet and several species had achieved brain to body sizes exceeding all other dinosaurs and even mammals then existing. However, the impact of a massive asteroid, a clear sign this planet's history has witnessed extraterrestrial intervention, devastated the planet and cleared the Way for humanity. Human beings are predatory. Humanity began as hunters and gatherers but hunting behavior did not cease when humans discovered agriculture -- it merely changed. The archaeological record shows that organized warfare began almost simultaneously with agriculture. (Reference 11) Historically, tribes and nations have fought wars and struggled for dominance as a form of biological competition. The apparent victory of the United States in the Cold War is demonstration that democracy and free enterprise, while not without their faults, have become dominant, because they are better and more efficient in the long run, or even the short run, than despotism and Marxism. So our own violent history, which despite its violence has produced the triumph of liberty and humanity, can be understood as a vast game of survival of the fittest among groups of rather predatory and aggressive beings. But there is another law of biology that also played a profound role in this and which we must also factor into our cosmic political model. The second law of Biology is roughly "the sum is greater than the parts." Or stated differently, in cooperation and in unity, there is strength. One human cell alone will die; one trillion human cells bound together, each doing its part, will thrive and triumph. So one human can do little, but a large number can move the Earth and someday change the course of stars. This second law, that cooperation leads to success, is seen not only in biology but in human politics and history. ENCOUNTERS IN THE COSMOS The HHM would say that encounters between E.T. nations and Earth nations are similar to encounters between less advanced nations and European explorers and exploiters. Generally, the more advanced and organized the less advanced nation was, the better it fared. Example: Japan was politically united, and on its own islands, militarily fearsome, despite having lower technology than the Europeans. However, faced with a massive display of American naval power (the ships were carefully painted white and black to look impressive), the Japanese government agreed to open up for trade and diplomatic relations. (Reference 13) They reorganized their society and held the Americans and other foreigners at bay militarily, thus preserving their sovereignty while most other small Asian nations are conquered by the Europeans. They adopted Western technology and finally became a great power. This did not prevent them from getting into trouble later, but they did very well during the European Colonial period. The American Indians present a tragic counter example. They were politically disunited, had no concept of the world view and ambitions of the Europeans and were technically backward. However, it was not lack of technology that caused them to lose their land; it was a lack of comprehension of the threat they faced. If they had known what they were facing from the beginning, they could have swept the Europeans into the sea. Instead, they lost almost everything, land, heritage, and most of their population, to a slow but relentless advance of the white man. WAR IN THE COSMOS The HHM tells there will be power politics between peoples in the Cosmos. Sadly, it also tells us that since "war is merely politics extended by other means," (Reference 14) there must be war in the Cosmos between nations. I have already referred to the Bible where it tells of war in heaven in Revelations; Thus, it is written that Earth is not the only arena of war. I have often referred to the Bible in this talk and will do so again; however, I also have spoken, in general, of books of ancient wisdom of Earth and how they would be useful in advising us concerning the Cosmos. I will now begin referring to such a useful book of ancient wisdom. It is a book of the East where the Bible is a book of the West, but it is ancient and wise in my view and along with the Bible and other books I think it offers humanity great help. This book it Sun Tzu, the Art of War. I commend this book to your study. Sun Tzu writes to us, "military action is important to the nation -- it is the ground of death and life. The path of survival and destruction, it is imperative to examine it." (Reference 15) War occurs in the Cosmos as part of a struggle for dominance; it is an aspect of the law of competition of survival of the fittest. On Earth, nations go to war for territory and resources so they can prosper and grow and their competitors will wither and shrink, or be absorbed. According to he HHM, wars occur in the Cosmos over stars and planets and the space containing them. We know that stars like the Sun that are single and of its special range F through K type are best for having life bearing worlds around them, like the Earth. (Reference 16) The hotter stars are too short lived and the dimmer, cooler ones are too unstable. We also know that planets like Earth, that are living planets, with oxygen atmospheres, and favorable temperature, are rare. Only one such planet exists in this star system which contains nine planets. Mars may have once been a living planet, but it is now dead. According to the HHM, people will fight over land and ocean and resources like those found on Earth. Therefor, the HHM says that the space containing stars like the Sun around which orbit planets like the Earth, with intelligent beings or not on them, are the things over which people of the Cosmos probably fight wars. They fight, because if you can have such a planet, you can settle a million individuals on it, and they will become a billion in a few centuries. If they can have ten such planets, a people can prosper and become great; if a people loses ten such planets to a competitor, then they will become weak and despised...their seed will not be as the stars of heaven. War between advanced peoples both of whom may possess nuclear weapons is probably highly risky, even if one side's space technology is highly superior. Nuclear weapons, like gunpowder on Earth, is probably a great equalizer in the Cosmos. In addition, space, by definition, allows cultures to develop in great isolation from each other, and thus have very different levels of technology. For these reasons, wars in the Cosmos probably seldom take place between equals. War on Earth most often comes about from a perceived imbalance of military capabilities. Life on Earth is not fair; probably neither is life in the Cosmos. So we would expect some peoples will carry out wars of conquest or extermination against their weaker and less advanced neighbors. Since these wars will involve armed conflict between very different cultures and species, they will probably be very cruel, as such wars are on Earth. In predicting this, I am supposing that some peoples of the Cosmos will act more like biological entities rather than moral civilized states. In saying this, I do not say all peoples of the Cosmos will act ruthlessly towards their neighbors, only some of them. On Earth we have nations that are great and powerful and others that are merely powerful. It is a dream that scientific knowledge and technological power lead to moral enlightenment in a nation, but we know on Earth that some nations can have enormous wealth and scientific and technological power, yet commit unspeakable crimes and aggression against their own people and others. Nazi Germany was for a period the most technologically advanced power on Earth, with ballistic missiles, jet fighter planes, and an active program to build nuclear weapons. No power on Earth could rival it for a period. Germany before this had been considered a center of theology and culture. Yet in a few years, Germany regressed into a nightmare and committed unspeakable crimes against humanity. Technology and morality do not go hand in hand on Earth or probably anywhere else in the Cosmos. One has only to look at our own society to see this. For some nations, technology merely provides irresistible temptations to abuse other nations. Nor does the fact that a people dwell among the stars make them moral and just. We dwell on a star, and it sits among other stars, but we must constantly struggle with ourselves to do right, and sometimes we fail at this. Therefore, according to the HHM the Cosmos is as harsh and desperate a place as it is beautiful. The laws of biology dictate this, and Earth merely reflects it. Morality and enlightenment must struggle against criminality and darkness in the Cosmos as they do on the Earth, and sometimes this struggle is armed. Given the preceding discussion, a likely scenario for war in the Cosmos is as follows: (1) an advanced space power encounters a less advanced power; (2) the more advanced power displays its power hoping to cow the less advanced power into submission; (3) if this ploy succeeds, the advanced power subjugates the lesser power without war; and (4) The subjugated people may be merely enslaved or else exterminated and the planet settled with the victorious species. Sun Tzu says "The best policy is to use strategy, influence, and the trend of events to cause the adversary to summit willingly." (Reference 17) That is, a military victory can be had at little cost by first achieving psychological victory over the enemy. One successful psychological ploy that was used with great success on Earth in analogous situations was to convince the less advanced natives that the more advanced were gods. This ploy was used by Cortez, who made ingenious use of the Quetzacotl legend in his attack on the Aztec empire. Cortez also used calculated displays of cannon fire, horses, and other technologies to convince the Aztec envoys that he possessed supernatural powers. Montezuma, the King of the Aztecs was almost hypnotized or "spooked" by the Spanish. Finally, when the Aztecs realized too late that the Spanish were just gold-hungry flesh and blood people like themselves, the people killed Montezuma for betraying them to the Spanish. cortez by this time had raised up the Indian nations long enslaved by the Aztecs, and so managed to conquer an empire of millions with only 800 men. Pizzaro also pulled off such a conquest again by "spooking" the Inca emperor into believing he was divine. So, a former pig farmer with a few hundred men conquered another empire of millions. However, let us suppose that the less advanced power is very tough minded and refuses to be cowed by the advanced powers' superior technology. Let us suppose also that the lesser power rejects as psychological ploys the advanced power's attempts to claim divinity, and that these attempts to attain psychological advantages merely harden the will of the less advanced people to fight. In this case, two things could happen: (1) The advanced power will withdraw or decide to establish normal and respectful diplomatic ties with the lesser power. (2) The advanced power may choose to wage war on the less advanced power when psychological ploys used alone have failed. Here the outcome is not nearly so predictable as one might imagine. War between technological unequals is probably the norm in the Cosmos rather than the exception. However, as on Earth, technology is only one of many factors is war. The factors are primarily: 1. Relative numbers of military forces -- does one side have overwhelming numbers? 2. Moral and discipline of the forces -- can it be maintained in the face of losses? 3. Length of supply lines -- can a large military effort be sustained for long by both sides? 4. Political unity of opposing power groups -- can one side exploit divisions in the other? 5. Technology -- can the high tech of one side be easily countered by the low tech of the other? 6. Will -- are the less advanced people more willing to resist than the more advanced are willing to press attacks? 7. Other Powers -- will other powers stay out of the war or intervene on one side or another? 8. Which side chooses the Way -- one side or neither? (Reference 18) As was discovered by the United States in Vietnam and the Russians in Afghanistan, technological superiority alone is not a deciding factor against adversaries who are tenacious, clever, are willing to die rather than submit, who have high morale, and who confront the advanced power on their home territory. These wars also showed the sensitivity of advanced powers to casualties, even when the advanced power may not be known for its concern for human life, as was the case with Russia. One Russian was quoted as saying "30,000 dead was one day's losses at Stalingrad, but in Afghanistan it seems too much." The difference was that 30,000 Germans died also and the Russians were fighting for their homes and lives. Death on foreign hostile territory, far from home, at the hands of primitive natives is especially grievous to advanced peoples, because, economically, a trained member for their society is more costly to replace than a member of a more primitive society, especially, if he must be trained in the use of high tech weaponry and transported great distances onboard expensive transports. therefore, if a less advanced society can maintain ferocious, long-term resistance against an advanced aggressor operating far from home, with limited forces, the less advanced people can triumph. the more advanced people will simply find they are bogged down and taking losses in an unwinnable war far from home, and they will leave. In such a triumph, morale and, if possible, religious zeal on the part of the less advanced people is a decisive factor. I repeat, in a conflict where a technically advanced power is waging a war of aggression on a less advanced power, the morale and will of the lesser power is what is decisive, not technology alone. Sun Tzu, though he wrote of war, as also a great moralist. To him a key factor in war was to follow "the Way." (Reference 18) .lm5 "The Way means humaneness and justice. In ancient times, a famous minister of state asked a political philosopher about military matters. The philosopher said, 'Humanness and justice are the means to govern properly. When government is carried out properly, people feel close to the leadership and think little of dying for it'." He also said: (Reference 19) "Those who use arms will cultivate the Way and keep the rules. Thus, they can govern in such a way as to prevail over the corrupt." .lm0 "Those who use its superior technology to try and oppress and destroy less advanced neighbors does not know of the Way. This is true on Earth, and I think this is true throughout the Cosmos. If a people departs from the Way to oppress their neighbors, then neither the brilliance of their technology and intellect, nor all their clever words can disguise it. Sadly, this brings us to the subject of the present situation regarding humanity and some of its fellow peoples of the Cosmos and what forty years of E.T. contact have taught us. --------- Continued in Rainbow part 2 --------------------------- Don -- -* Don Allen *- InterNet: dona@bilver.UUCP // Amiga..for the best of us. USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-) UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!vicstoy!dona KING George Bush?? Just say NO! UFO's in commercials....is the GOVT getting us ready for OCTOBER of 1992? Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!cis.ohio-state.edu!pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu!linac!att!att!fang!tarpit!bilver!dona From: dona@bilver.uucp (Don Allen) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy Subject: FILE: Whitley Strieber FAREWELL Letter Message-ID: <1991Aug25.011112.12295@bilver.uucp> Date: 25 Aug 91 01:11:12 GMT Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL Lines: 431 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:1844 alt.conspiracy:6735 I'm posting this full and complete text of Whitley Strieber's last Communion Newsletter. This is his FAREWELL. This text *is* copylefted and I have _not_ received permission to publish here. It's being posted for informational purposes only. ------Begin included text ------------------------------------------- "The Communion Letter" - Farewell, Spring Issue, 1991; Volume 3, No. 1. Copyright 1991, Wilson and Neff, Inc. Dora Ruffner, Editor, PO Box 10235, San Antonio, TX 78210-0235. Anne Strieber, Executive Editor, 496 La Guardia Place, New York, NY 10012 ================================================================= ============ FAREWELL, By Whitley Strieber. This is the last issue of The Communion Letter. We have run it for two years, and have had a wonderful time doing so. But we never intended to continue indefinitely. Like the related books and the Communion groups, it had a definite and finite purpose. For the present, that purpose has been fulfilled. Everybody whose subscription still has issues to run will be sent a cash refund for the balance. The letter ends its run in a state of excellent financial health and with a robust subscription list, so there will be no delay in returning money. The letter has been a tremendous success from the very first issue, and I would like to thank everybody who subscribed. Because we had so many more subscribers than expected, back issues are available only in limited quantities. Now I would like to address the question of why I have terminated the letter. The reason is that I do not feel that it is productive to deal with the visitor question any further publicly until there is something more definite known. Should events warrant, I will send out periodic communications, but they will be in letter format, will be free, and will be sent to everybody who has written me. The presence of UFO's, at least, has already been proven. The problem is not one of whether or not they exist, but rather, what they are. I view the continued refusal of the scientific community to address the issue as slightly daft, but I understand it very well. I have gained the friendship of numerous scientists and some government officials who are certain that our observations and experiences represent a genuine unknown. To a man, however, they are afraid to address it openly because of their fear of public destruction in the press. They are horrified at the idea of being identified with the UFO community, whom they regard as a kooky backwater plagued by the fuzzy thinking of losers with poor academic credentials, who are motivated by superstition and insane jealousies. The press and the UFO community stand together against further progress in the field. Until organizations like MUFON and CUFOS disintegrate or become discredited, and the press is allowed to discover that there are people with strong and respected credentials working on the subject, further progress is unlikely. Before I sign off, I would like to address a few questions that have been bothering me. The first is that of the Communion groups. Because of these groups, I was falsely accused of being a cult leader. In fact, the groups were operating as an alternative to a very nasty little cult run by people so startlingly ignorant of what they are doing that they do not even understand that they are brainwashing their victims. During the course of a defamation suit I lodged against a particularly harsh critic, large numbers of his research papers were transmitted to me. I was disgusted to discover that no bona fide members of Communion groups had been extensively interviewed by this man. Instead, his primary source of information was the amateur hypnotists I had formed the Communion groups to fight! I was not attacked because there was any legitimate reason to do so. I was attacked because I was a large, publicly visible target and could thus afford my attackers more publicly. The Communion groups existed for two reasons: first, to provide a social forum free of charge to interested parties; second, to offer an alternative source of support where one did not need to by hypnotized, and where open-minded questioning replaced the looney certitudes offered by UFO fanatics. I even went so far as to require the group leaders to sign forms stating that they would not charge money, and that they would maintain the integrity of the question in their meetings. I found it quite shocking that groups formed to combat a cult would themselves be identified as cultic. But the media leaped to the breach, hungry as it always is to spread the lie, and I became identified on national television as a cult leader similar to Jim Jones. Only when the young man who had made this accusation stated in publicly available court papers that he did not really believe it, did I drop my suit against him. Because of the notoriety, members of UFO cults and "reporters" began to try to invade the Communion groups. For this reason, they were canceled. Because of this, witnesses wishing social contact with others like themselves must be denied the healthy alternative of the Communion groups. All that remains available is the UFO junk, with the attendant risk of being made into a hypnotized zombie. I would like now to move onto other subjects. Since this is my final statement on such matters, I would like to deny a few rumors. The fact that I am not denying all rumors does not mean that those I ignore are true. They are simply too stupid to be worthy of comment. * I am not a government agent. There is some truth to the allegations that I have contact within the U.S. military and the government. I will not deny this. But all of my activities are pointed in one direction: disclosure. * I am not a skinflint. The Communion Foundation has given away a lot of money, and I have tried hard to be financially generous in every way possible, and possess the records to prove it. Even Budd Hopkins has been generously treated, and I have the canceled checks to prove this. * The "white paper" Mr. Hopkins allegedly produced about me is a tissue of intentional distortions designed to portray me in a falsely negative light. But his apparent sending of this paper to dozens of UFO investigators, in an effort to discredit me, was effective. Such people are eager to believe negative information about those more successful than they. Jealousy is an illness, and it is highly contagious, and the UFO community is sick to death with it. * There exist no legitimate audio tapes of me admitting to being an alien, a government agent, a sexual pervert, or the camp-follower of little grey men from Zeta Reticuli. I have never said anything of the kind. These tapes are no doubt the creations of people who have been playing games in a sound room. If you want to know what I think, read my books. Now that I have finished with that, I would like to tell you, as clearly as I can, my present thinking on the subject of visitors and related phenomena. First, I am certain that we are not dealing with alien encounters as defined by the UFO community. This is a deeper and more subtle business. The Communion Foundation recorded over three thousand narratives of experience out of the nearly forty thousand I have so far received. The documented ones were chosen simply on the basis of the fullness of the narrative, not on its content. Only a very few of these spontaneously described anything remotely resembling the so-called "typical abduction experience" that has been concocted by the UFO community. And these, for the most part, were from people who had already been exposed to UFO literature. To have a "typical abduction encounter," you must almost certainly be first be exposed to UFO stories and literature and/or be hypnotized by an "expert" who has himself been exposed to, or advocates, this belief system. Thus, I consider hypnosis to be almost worthless, except in cases where it is administered by a medical professional to a relatively uncorrupted individual. Hypnotism by UFO experts and the psychologists who support them does not open the door to truth. It opens the door to fantasies based on the modern folklore of the alien and the flying saucer - and it opens the door to fear. Most people who have had the visitor experience are not afraid; they are not angry. They are perplexed. We carefully researched some of the most spectacular UFO claims, and found many of them to be essentially fallacious. For example, the stories about alien bases hidden under the Archeluta Mesa in New Mexico probably derive from twisted tellings of the ghost stories and creation myths of the Jacarilla Apaches whose reservation surrounds the mesa. Most of the stories about crashed flying saucers are also unsubstantiated. Only one, the Roswell incident, stands out as demonstrably strange. I was able to do some research into this affair which must remain confidential, but it convinced me that the Air Force obtained, without a doubt, some material from the desert north of Roswell, New Mexico, that it could not explain at the time. It would be interesting to see if modern analysis might reveal more about this material. At the time, an elaborate cover-up was instituted to conceal the fact that the Air Force did not know what it had. Since the cover-up was never abandoned, it must still be in place. I can assert with the certainty of direct personal experience that elements of that very complex social organism known as the U.S. government possess some extremely strange information - at the very least - which is being methodically concealed not only from the public, but from the Congress as well. To keep these secrets, elements of the U.S., British, Australian and Brazilian governments have all at times taken extraordinary measures. U.S. government agencies appear to have engaged in the illegal propagandizing of the American people by spreading so-called "disinformation" about this subject. From the beginning, the agencies involved seem to have been willing to blatantly break the law in their effort to protect the secrets. They have almost certainly failed to provide Congress with information it deserves under the law. Everything I have ever done in regard to the government has been directed toward the goal of disclosure. But this is a sensitive, complicated situation, and it isn't going to be changed overnight. It has come about because the people within the government who are holding the secrets ill understand the nature of the issues involved. They think that they are hiding the fact that eerie aliens are present, that these supposed aliens engage in certain disturbing and enigmatic activities, and that they cannot be controlled in any way. This is not a true impression of the situation. If the secret intelligence agencies understood what they were dealing with, they would see that the secrecy is meaningless. In my three books about the visitor experience, I tried to maintain the position which I still hold today, and which is expressed in large type in the frontispiece of Communion: "Instead of shunning the darkness, we can face straight into it with an open mind. When we do that, the unknown changes. Fearful things become understandable and a truth is suggested: the enigmatic presence of the human mind winks back from the dark." Unfortunately, this position did not please the UFO believers or the media. I do not accept most UFO doctrine, at least not as it is expressed by American believers. The media is even worse. They spent three years trying to cast me as a "self-proclaimed alien abductee." Almost without exception, their approach to what I was trying to communicate was beyond the stupid: it was intentionally irresponsible. They knew my position but chose to distort it in the interest of sensationalism. There is a very simple reason that we have made so little progress understanding UFOs and the visitors. We are a world in the process of going blind: We are blind to the existence of the soul, and thus also to the ancient and immensely conscious world from which it emerges. Ironically, if aliens are here, we are not going to find them in the sky. Our own minds are where we will find them, for the mind is the door to their world - a more real, more true, more alive world than ours. Now I would like to approach, in an oblique manner, some ideas about the visitor experience, its origins and its nature. First, it is a natural phenomenon. The profound truth of this statement cannot be overemphasized. The moment you come face to face with the visitors, you cannot fail to be struck by the fact that they are not highly contrived technological presences, but simple, natural creatures - almost naked. Witnesses who have seen them up close and remembered the encounter will often say things like, "I thought he was a little animal at first," or "if felt like part of me." The same witness might say both things, and be right both times. The visitors are beings, natural objects, living things - at once separate from us, yet part of us - and they are also a message. I would like now to address the content of the message, insofar as I can understand it. Our cultures have, as the ages have progressed, desensitized us both to the soul and to our animal nature. They have made us more and more viewers and less and less doers. About two thousand years ago we began watching plays that demonstrated the acts of the Gods. The trouble was, these were inner dramas, and externalizing them was a mistake. When religion ceased to be the format for relationships between man and nature and became a means of deifying our internal yearnings and conflicts, we began the long process of going soul-blind. Even so, there is a sense of rightness to our present situation. We are failing in our attempt to subjugate nature - and that is as it should be. Despite all the trouble that we are to see, we will gain from this misadventure we call civilized life. In the end, nature will drive us back to the forest. Our assault on her will leave us profoundly wounded, but also full of wisdom. This is what we came out of the forest to find: we seek to know ourselves, and the only way to do that is to plumb the depths of our potential, both for good and for evil. By becoming animals again I do not mean to suggest that we will grow fur and long teeth, but rather that we will become once again "as lilies of the field," surrendering our every material need to nature's own provender. Won't we starve then? We may never find the courage to seek an answer to this question. But there will come a day when surrender is forced upon us. For a long time I wondered why one individual attracts the attention of the visitors and another does not. Why would it be that one journalist came to my cabin and had an encounter, and another did not? Why would a weak, hysterical fool have elaborate contact, while a well-educated, competent scientist would not? I found out why. People who have encounters share a deep and very special kind of yearning. This goes much deeper than a surface desire for a better life, a better political system, a cleaner environment. I think that few people experiencing this yearning would be able to sense its presence at all, except as a vague feeling of loss sifting down from their dreams. The visitors are evolution at work. In one sense they point to the future, in another they are the future. They represent higher mind preparing us for a world that hasn't happened yet. For example, the amazing performance of the devices we see in the sky has given rise to research programs devoted to plasmic propulsion and anti-gravity. Our own future thus is drawing us into itself. At the moment of penultimate cultural, economic and environmental crisis, mankind will also discover the secret of gravity and become able to propel himself in large numbers deep, deep into the body of the universe. This is why we have been seeing flying saucers since the first moments we might usefully even have conceived of such possibilities. This is why the display themselves. What is greatest and best in us is calling us forth. Of course people with strong and fixed beliefs fear and hate the very idea of all this. The strongest believers in western culture are not religionists, they are the scientific fundamentalists. In fact, fundamentalism of all kinds is not a renewal of belief, but its death knell. When faith fails, belief takes its place. Faith is deep and quiet; belief is shallow and shrill. The existence of scientific fundamentalism means that scientists are already aware that their system of beliefs has failed. The visitors point to the transformation of belief into question, and lead us to the discovery of true faith, which has nothing to do with the worship of gods or technology, and everything to do with trusting the dark. This they key to whom they choose: they choose the ones who have run out of alternatives, who have no inner choice left but to trust the dark. When a person who yearns inwardly for change reaches the psychological breaking point, the visitors may come in through the cracks in that person's wall of belief. There are things at large in the night of the soul; the visitors live there. Do not mistake me: I do not for an instant ascribe this awesome phenomenon to some comprehensible psychological origin, nor condemn it to living only in the fragile atmosphere of thought. I am speaking of something conscious and intelligent and richly alive, that uses the human mind as its path into the physical universe. When it does this its appearance is limited by our expectations. We expect aliens, so aliens are what we see. But the actual content of visitor experience can no more be described by the narrative of encounter than a sphere's objective form can be described by some Flatlander observing its transit through a two-dimensional plane. Evolution begins, always, with destruction. So it is easy to mistake the visitors for predators. What is the secret of the lamb lying down with the lion? The lamb sees that the full expression of his life requires him to surrender to the lion. To fully express himself he must serve nature, and so also the lion. Life is not a Walt Disney cartoon. The lion is not evil because he eats the lamb. Rather, he is simply hungry, and he has a right to his hunger. Our whole moral order is flawed. We do not understand the requirements of the predator - not because we are prey, but for the opposite reason: we are predators ourselves, which is the real motive for so much of the destruction and unbalanced behavior that rocks our lives. We cannot accept what we are. Because we have no faith in ourselves, we have no faith in nature, and we cannot bear the discipline of trusting the dark. Faith is beyond religion. It has to do with loving one's own sinews and secrets. To do this one must face the fact that, inside ourselves, we are not alone. Every dark thing that any human being has ever done involves us all. It is terribly hard to face this. One must not forget that all the good in humanity is there too, shining in the murk of our souls. When I realized that the awful look I kept seeing in the eyes of the visitors actually reflected the terror of this situation, I understood that they were part of us. I was seeing the reflection of my own soul. When we look at the visitors, we look at ourselves. The lights in the sky at once deceive and inform: they suggest the presence of aliens; they portend the coming of man. For man has not yet been born. Earth is fat with flesh: she is aching for the days of harvest. Our aim, both collectively and individually, is to carry back into our timeless home a clear and objective impression of what we found here. We are the voyagers, our bodies and brains are the spaceship. But do not imagine that our home is figurative or imaginary. The lair of the visitors is real. I have gone deep into it, found that is has walls and trees and lights. You can lie down with them; indeed, you can even walk in places where new forms of man are being invented. When I first noticed the visitors, I would have "encounters." Then these encounters focused into a relationship. The visitors accepted the role I laid out for them, and became pilots for me in the night. They took me into the shoals of fear, and then left me to founder. Instead I struggled, at least at first. I have learned since that the point is not to subjugate fear, but to use it as a window into self-understanding. Taste your fear, taste your self. Now I see them as a higher level of mind, eager to spread transformative potential in our foundering societies. We have burdened our concept of the soul with myth and folklore, have made the dramas of the gods into entertainments. Now it is time to recover the soul's ancient potency, and begin to form a new relationship with the numinous. We must abandon myth, abandon folklore, abandon culture, abandon all the engines of deceit by which we have concealed our real natures from ourselves. The only way to proceed is to accept that the soul has an objective reality and - at the present moment - we haven't got the faintest idea what that means. I know what interests the visitors. It is not love and light; the heaving of desperate minds draws them. The reason that they first began to be visible on a large-scale basis after World War II had to do with the tremendous shocks that assailed us then. We began to live in daily terror of the atomic bomb. Simultaneously we discovered that human beings were capable of anything: men had engineered the Holocaust, and men could most certainly drop the bomb. It was no accident that the visitors appeared in the middle of America's secret weapons testing areas and close by the world's only operational atomic bomber wing in 1947: this was where our desperation pointed them, this was the nexus of fear. But what are they? I cannot answer that question directly. I know what they are, and yet... I don't. To understand why this would be so, it is necessary to refer to the indeterminate laws that govern the movement and nature of electrons and to simultaneously consider the actual, physical nature of thought. Thought is an electronic event organized within the cells of a brain and mediated by their chemical condition. Since thought consists of electrons, it is in its essence as indeterminate as they are. And so are the visitors. It is perfectly possible that they are from the future, from within us and from another world all at once. This seems like a hopeless contradiction, a piece of intellectual posturing worthy only to be swept away by hard-headed engineers. But it's not. Unless one thinks indeterminately about the visitors, one cannot think about them usefully and correctly. I have gone deep into their world. The more subtle my understanding of them has become, the richer my relationship. I will go on, as deep as I can, daring everything. I will stop at nothing, go into every dark place, keep on until my breath is gone. Thank you for traveling with me a little while. Will we meet again? EOF ------------------------------------------------------------------ Don -- -* Don Allen *- InterNet: dona@bilver.UUCP // Amiga..for the best of us. USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-) UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!vicstoy!dona KING George Bush?? Just say NO! UFO's in commercials....is the GOVT getting us ready for OCTOBER of 1992? Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!cis.ohio-state.edu!pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu!linac!att!att!fang!tarpit!bilver!dona From: dona@bilver.uucp (Don Allen) Newsgroups: alt.activism,alt.conspiracy,alt.alien.visitors Subject: Rainbow Declaration Pt2 - Humans and Aliens Message-ID: <1991Aug25.010514.12226@bilver.uucp> Date: 25 Aug 91 01:05:14 GMT Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL Lines: 938 Xref: ns-mx alt.activism:15044 alt.conspiracy:6736 alt.alien.visitors:1845 -------Rainbow Part 2 (conclusion) ------------------------------ FORTY YEARS OF UFOLOGY: WHAT HAVE WE LEARNED? A goal of this paper was to factor into our view of human destiny what we have learned from forty years of contact with E.T.s. In particular, what does the HHM do to unravel for us what is reported concerning the last forty years. Several observations can be made. The first and primary observation is that, at least on the surface everything appears well. Humanity rules and occasionally misrules, the Earth. No overt signs of E.T. contact are seen. In the last forty years, humanity, itself, has become spacefaring, advanced in power, and in some ways, has gained wisdom. Except for a popular preoccupation with E.T. contact fantasies, no outward sign of E.T. Earth dialogue is apparent. The second observation is that, like many situations on Earth, much is being concealed. Concealment is usually a sign of conflict. Sun Tzu wrote: (Reference 20) .lm5 "Be extremely subtle, even to the point of formlessness. Be extremely mysterious, even to the point of soundlessness. Thereby, you can be the directors of the opponent's fate." .lm0 The groups of extraterrestrials who seem to have long term interests here seem to be concealing their true intentions and the governments of Earth are concealing their true posture toward the extraterrestrials. To learn anything from the past forty years of Ufology, one must have a method of interpreting both the government's and the E.T.s' actions. We have such a method in the HHM. What does the HHM tell that we have learned about the past forty years? It tell us the following: 1. We are not in a region of space controlled by any one E.T. nation; we know this because many species visit us. 2. Most E.T.s seem to have adopted a policy of benign non- interference in Earth's affairs. 3. Most E.T.s are quite humanoid. 4. Three groups seem to be attempting to carry out a long term activity here. (a) Reticulians or "grays" -- A species reportedly from Zeta Reticuli 36 light years from Earth. (Reference 16) These are the short, big-eyed, big-headed aliens. (b) The Talls -- similar to the Reticulians but more humanoid, blonde, blue-eyed -- origin unknown. (c) Nordics -- very humanoid, Scandinavian appearance -- star of origin unknown. It must be stated that is is not clear to what extent these three species' intentions towards Earth coincide. 5. Some E.T. contact has been extremely positive and strongly suggests that we will one day become a part of some community of cosmic peoples of like beliefs to our own. 6. There does not appear to be any Galactic government protecting primitive planets like Earth from E.T. contact. 7. Some E.T.s appear to be quite hostile to humanity. This last point is an unpleasant and difficult one. However, it merely means the Cosmos is like the Earth, and you live on Earth, so you can deal with this possibility. Unfortunately, it appears that the E.T.s with the most interest in Earth are also the most hostile. How could it be any different if humanity is involved? THE SECRET STAR WARS: THE REAL TRUTH ABOUT THE LAST FORTY YEARS It is my analysis, based on the HHM, that the Reticulians (or grays) are implacably hostile to humanity. (figure 1) As to the Reticulian goal, there can be little doubt, for they have come far, stayed long, suffered great losses, and expended great resources, yet they will not reveal it to us. But, their actions reveal their goal: to have the Earth for their own. Their actions are not consistent with anything else. Our government apparently realized this at some point in the distant past, perhaps as early as 1947. The government has kept this secret locked up in Dreamland with its captured discs. It is my belief that the fact of Reticulian hostility is the actual great secret underlying the entire government cover-up concerning UFOs. However, this truth can no longer be kept secret; it is apparent from both Reticulians' behaviors that are widely known in Ufology and the government's reactions to them. I would argue that while it may have been useful to have kept this secret in the past (that is, the fear engendered by the knowledge of hostile aliens might have been more dangerous than the aliens themselves), it is now more dangerous to keep it secret, because secrecy is now a hindrance to effective defense. Ufology has withheld judgment for a long period concerning the behavior of the Reticulians. This was justified because, in the past, data was scanty and unreliable. We have avoided judging the Reticulians' actions by human standards because they were not human, and we like to withhold judgment even on humans until we have some basic level of knowledge about them. We also have tended to place less credibility on reports of Reticulians' atrocities and hostile acts because they frighten us, and because they are at odds with our picture of E.T.s as the hoped for "space brothers," the angelic saviors of humanity. However, the truth appears to be that the truly benevolent E.T. nations want little to do with us, and that humanity has only God and itself to look to for salvation. ***************************************************************** Omitted: "Figure 1."; Text reads: The Hostile Reticulian. Out of numbers of people in our cosmic neighborhood, the Reticulians have demonstrated implacable hostility to humanity. But this hostility is not irrational, we both want the Earth and only one can have it. They must be, and will be, opposed by all means necessary. ***************************************************************** It appears our government has been involved in a Secret Star Wars with the Reticulians. This Star War is sometimes cold, sometimes hot and has been punctuated by cynical truces and cease fires, but Star War is the best term for it. Is this government posture justified; I would argue, yes, absolutely. The time is now ripe for Ufology to make a judgment regarding the behavior of the Reticulians and their cohorts. I give you my judgment: the emperor has no clothes, the Reticulians and their crimes are naked. It is widely and reliably reported now that the Reticulians are engaged in horrifying behavior. 1. They abduct and terrorize people beginning often with children. (Reference 21) 2. They mutilate cattle and leave them for their owners to find. (Reference 22) 3. Their breeding program is an abominable crime against humanity. (Reference 23) 4. They kill people, only whether it is murder 1, 2, or 3, is debatable. (Reference 24) 5. They invade our airspace and destroy our warplanes and pilots sent to defend our airspace. (Reference 25, 26) This pattern of behavior by the Reticulians indicates a complete disregard for human rights, life, or dignity. Some have said that those are crimes by human standards, but perhaps not by Reticulian standards. I argue that this is Earth, and humanity and its standards rule on Earth, so if they are crimes by human standards, then as far as we are concerned, they are crimes by any standard. I further argue that murder, mutilation, abduction, and hostile intrusion into a planet's airspace are crimes on any planet. The HHM gives an astonishing and horrifying interpretation of Reticulian behavior: Reticulian Behavior Human Parallel Primary Meaning/Purpose Abduction: Kidnaping and Terrorization, Abduction Domination Sexual Procedure: Rape/ Terrorization, Molestation Domination Talk in Riddles to Old Human Psychological power to Abductees: Interrogation plus maintaining trick emotional distance from victim Tissue Sample: To "cut" Demonstrate power someone Animal/Human Old human ploy Terrorization -- Mutilation: frustrated expression of rage Claims of Cortez in Psychological warfare divinity and to Mexico and to induce surrender have influenced "I made you history: everything you are today" Desire for Secrecy: Mafia, Disguise military Terrorist weakness groups It is even reported that the Reticulians have claimed to have invented Jesus Christ. (Reference 27) If this is what the Reticulians have claimed, it is a contemptible lie. The Reticulians by their actions have shown themselves to be completely ignorant of Christ's teachings. Even the devil can quote scripture, and appear as an angel of light. (References 28, 29) This claim concerning Christ is in my opinion, again, a naked attempt to gain psychological domination over humanity. As awful as such behavior is, it clearly indicates their utter disrespect for human religious beliefs and is thus clearly a warning. For Christians this makes our conflict with the Reticulians particularly apparent and mortal. For it is written. .lm5 I John 4:3 "And every spirit that confesses not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God and this is the spirit of the antichrist..." .lm0 To a Christian, what could be a simpler decision. Either the Bible or the Reticulian is lying, and the Reticulians are commonly reported to be liars about even petty things. So, it would not surprise me if the Reticulians soon claim to have invented Moses, the Ten Commandments, and the electric light bulb. Ignore these claims. Our conflict with the Reticulians is a mortal one in that we are dealing with a power that wishes to destroy everything we regard as precious and holy in the Earth. In my view, surrender to the Reticulians is suicide and holocaust; it is unthinkable. It is obvious that, when analyzed by HHM, the Reticulians' actions have strong parallels in every record of human oppression and terror. The Reticulians resemble an Earthly terrorist state such as Iran, Libya, North Korea, or the Mafia. I would argue that its strongest parallel is Nazi Germany, because of its utter disregard for human values and its abominable crimes against humanity seen in its breeding program. This would mean that humanity's introduction to the Cosmos has actually become a confrontation with a latter day Axis alliance with the Reticulians playing Nazi Germany, and the Talls and Nordics playing the roles of Fascist Italy and Imperial Japan. Like the Nazis, the Reticulians are bent on conquest. There can be little doubt as to their goal: to seize the Earth for themselves. This, I would argue, is the real secret of the past forty years, not that E.Ts have come to Earth, but that hostile E.T.s have come to Earth. In response, the government has tried to lock this terrible truth away from public awareness. Like the publicly known Star Wars concept, it has a bizarre dual existence as the stuff of both tabloid headlines and the blackest of the black programs. The arrival of this Reticulians Axis has triggered every possible defensive action by our government and other world governments, and I think this is justified. The government has particularly made every possible attempt to gain understanding of Reticulians technology. It has been reported that the government has even entered into agreements with the Reticulians and allowed them sanctuary on some military bases. Why would a government do such a thing if it believed the Reticulians were vile and hostile? They would do it because they must have knowledge, as Sun Tzu states: (Reference 30) .lm5 "A major military operation is a severe drain on the nation, and may be kept up for years in the struggle for one day's victory. So to fail to know the conditions of opponents because of reluctance to give rewards for intelligence is extremely inhumane, uncharacteristic of a true military leader, uncharacteristic of an assistant of the government, uncharacteristic of a victorious military leadership to overcome others and achieve extraordinary accomplishments is foreknowledge. Foreknowledge cannot be gotten from ghosts and spirits, cannot be had by analogy, cannot be found out by calculation. It must be obtained from people, people who know the conditions of the enemy." .lm0 So, our government may have done such things. This covert Star Wars involves espionage and counter espionage, and it is not pleasing to look upon. However, the more vile and hostile the Reticulians, the more necessary such dialogue with them becomes. In addition, the government would attempt to keep this situation secret from its own people by whatever means possible. The government, in a sense, has been trying to preserve the "Prime Directive." Unfortunately, this has required the government to lie continually to its people, among other things that it has done. Our government has, in general, done what governments do when they are threatened with war by a powerful and unknown enemy. Now, it is becoming plain that this situation can no longer be kept secret. One would immediately protest that if the Reticulians are implacably hostile to humanity, why don't they attack since they are so powerful? My first response is that many of us have enemies, but when they attack openly, it is usually a relief; for the most part, treachery and intimidation are the rule in conflicts between individuals and nations. My second response is that humanity has enormous military power on Earth's surface and in its atmosphere, and the Reticulians are a space power, with few forces available and far from home; so they are powerful but so are we. They are more advanced, but they are not as powerful as they want us to think. My third response is that the Cosmos is probably a complicated place, and these complications place constraints on Reticulian actions just as they constrain the actions of Earth nations. What can be done about this situation? I would argue that much can be done and this situation is neither hopeless, nor beyond us in Ufology from making a contribution. However, one must not avoid the impact of this realization -- that humanity is probably confronted with a powerful and merciless enemy. GOD, GUTS, AND GUNS AGAINST THE RETICULIANS For me, the impact of the Secret Star Wars, the concept of the Reticulians as implacable enemies of humanity and of our government, brought me closer to God. However, I went through a classic grief reaction. First, there was fear and white-hot rage alternating with denial and terrible grief. then, there was despair and nights of prayer. Then, there was courage and hope. Finally, there was also resolve: God is with humanity; if we must fight the Reticulians, God will fight for us also. I would argue that he already fights for us, and that the strength of His arm was seen at Roswell, before anyone even knew we had an enemy. (figure 2) For there, in one stroke, a Reticulians' craft fell even as we celebrated the Fourth of July, and our government found the Reticulians' craft shattered and the bodies of Reticulians scattered about as food for the buzzards and coyotes. We thus knew from the onset that the Reticulians were flesh and blood and not invincible or infallible. We also knew they had crashed while spying on what was then one of our most secret defense installations, showing our government their possible hostile intent. So, God has helped us from the beginning, before we even knew we needed help. We are much stronger militarily than we were in 1947. The human race has never been more technologically advanced or more united than it is now. I believe we are only a breakthrough away from a unified field theory that will allow us to control gravity with electromagnetism. When we achieve this we will be able to duplicate much of the Reticulians' technology and eventually improve on it. I am myself working on such a theory, and I know many others are also working on it; may God help us in our work. Finally, it is known that weapons we already possess are effective against the Reticulians and their ships. Many of the reported crashes of alien ships were not accidents; they were victories in a secret war with a secret enemy. Many brave men have died already to defend their country and their people. Let us remember their sacrifice. So, with God's help, I found courage and resolve to fight the Reticulians and their Axis. I see reason for grave concern, but I see reasons to be encouraged also. We will win. We will win, because God is with us, and we seek His help. We will win because we are strong and brave and ready to die, if necessary; and we will win because we have already shown our weapons are powerful against the Axis; and while they may rule in space, we rule on Earth, and in its atmosphere. We will win because necessity is the mother of invention, and we do not need to duplicate Reticulians technology to render it useless to them. So God, Guts, and Guns are our key allies in victory. ***************************************************************** Omitted: "figure 2"; Text reads: The evening of July 4, 1947, in a field near Roswell, New Mexico. The irony of fate dictates, that as the Reticulians and their craft lay fallen and broken, the nation celebrates Independence Day. ***************************************************************** Much more could be said about this matter and will be said; however, this paper is not about the present but about the future. So, let us now consider how what we have learned in the last forty years will impact our future. In particular, what can we in Ufology do to positively impact the human future, given our knowledge of the past forty years. Concisely summarized: The past forty years of Ufology have taught us that the Cosmos is like the Earth and that the dynamics of nations in the Cosmos resembles the dynamics of nations on Earth. On Earth we have seen powerful advanced nations try to oppress weak and less-advanced nations. We now see a repetition of that struggle of nations in a vaster arena with the past forty years being a struggle between two astonishingly powerful groups of nations in the Cosmos, humanity and the Reticulians' Axis. There are apparently a cloud of other cosmic nations, "silent watchers," also monitoring these events. So, we have learned something, but what can we do with this knowledge? You in Ufology are the only group outside of the government that has the slightest inkling of what the real human situation is. I have spoken of a problem: I will now tell you what positive step you can do to help this situation. The key concern is that humanity's destiny, so far as it is under the control of flesh and blood, is in its own hands. So, it is human intentions, not the intentions of the Reticulians, that are important. So, what are your intentions? IV THE RAINBOW DECLARATION The Rainbow Declaration was written as an attempt to declare what the people of the Earth, humanity, should agree amongst themselves and what they should declare to their fellow peoples of the Cosmos as to their beliefs and intentions. Its themes are equality and fellowship before God of all peoples of the Cosmos and the basic rights of all peoples. The prominent mention of God in this document is wholly appropriate, I believe; and I cannot conceive of a document discussing such basic rights and truths without mention of God. If there are laws that are universal, then only God can establish them and command respect for them. If all people are part of a great family, then only God can be its head. I borrowed heavily from great works of human heritage and science fiction. Such borrowings are intended as acts of homage rather than plagiarism. The Rainbow Declaration is also dialogue. It is a declaration to God that we recognize our place in the stars. It is a declaration to the government that we want to known the truth, even if it hurts, and that we want the extraterrestrials to be dealt with in a unified front with the other nations of Earth. Finally, it is a declaration to the extraterrestrials themselves that we are ready for an open and equal dialogue with them, that we expect the rights of all peoples to be respected, and that our expansion into the Cosmos will not be at their expense. In particular, it will put the Reticulians' Axis on notice that we view their conduct here as unacceptable. THE DECLARATION ANALYZED The Preamble to the Declaration is essentially a statement of who we are as a people and our concerns as people of how precious the Earth and its environment is to us. I call for an end to slaughter of the whales, because I want all victimization of intelligent beings on Earth to stop; and the first step is to end our victimization of these intelligent, friendly creatures of the sea, who were honored by special mention in Genesis as one of God's great creations. (Reference 31) The first article states that relation between humanity and other peoples of the Cosmos should be open and public. there should be no secret treaties between terrestrial and extraterrestrial powers. The document states that all of these relations should be handled through the General Secretary of the United Nations, actin in consultation with the Security council, and that the Security Council should ratify all agreements. This may strike some of you as a surrender of American sovereignty to the United Nations, which many of you have a poor opinion of. However, the United States sits on the Security Council as a permanent member and has veto power over anything it does not like. (Reference 32) Reportedly, in the present situation, the United States is acting as an ambassador to the Cosmos on humanity's behalf. Considering all that has reportedly transpired, I do not think this reflects well on us, and we should give up the job. The United Nations is a human organization and like humanity has many flaws and frailties, but the United States, in my opinion, would do better leading humanity as a loyal member of the United Nations than trying to pretend it speaks for humanity. Much of humanity would probably resent this deeply if they knew the United States were acting n this role. Article two begins by greeting our fellow peoples of the Cosmos and asking them to pay careful attention to the list of basic rights. It also says that we think all peoples are equal in God's sight and this may be a revolutionary concept to some in the Cosmos. Much of the rest of the document is self- explanatory, except for the part about genetic code. The reference to genetic code deserves special explanation. It was decided that this code must be protected because the genetic code of a people is an instruction book on how to live on their planet of Genesis and how to fight the many bacterial and viral infections found there. Therefore, to take a people's genetic code, outside of an open scientific exchange, is a hostile act and indicates an alien power is considering colonization of a planet with its own species. The final right is the right to assert and defend the rights listed. This is not a fairy tale document; it was written in recognition that some people, some nations, and some species, understand only force. Some in the Cosmos obviously believe that might makes right; this is not a new idea on Earth. Many have believed it in our history, but they were proved wrong. right makes might, friends, and I have written The Rainbow Declaration that its truth might strengthen you. Finally, the Rainbow Declaration closes with the statements: that all peoples ought to treat all other peoples as they themselves desire to be treated, and that humanity's highest goal is to join, as an equal partner, in the community of the peoples of the Cosmos. The Rainbow Declaration is as follows: THE RAINBOW DECLARATION We, the people of Earth, do make this solemn Rainbow Declaration. We Acknowledge our common childhood before the Creator, God, and Judge of all the Cosmos, both visible and invisible. We recognize the planet Earth as our Planet of Genesis, our home, and our hereditary treasure. We pledge to keep and preserve the Earth for all humanity for all generations. We call upon all humanity to treat one another with kindness, justice, and peace. We call upon all humanity to work together to ease the effects of hunger, disease, and overpopulation. Let there be no more killing of the whales, great and small, and let humanity, and the beauty of the Earth which is humanities. ARTICLE One In true Unity there is strength and general benefit; therefore, on all matters concerning extraterrestrial peoples we shall be as One. We recognize the office of the Secretary General of the United Nations, acting with the advice and consent of the Security Council, as the sole representative of humanity in all dealings with extraterrestrials. All relations and agreements will be open and public, and all agreements must be ratified by the Security Council to be in force. ARTICLE Two To our fellow peoples in the community of the Cosmos, we extend greetings; we recognize you as fellow children of the Creator of the Cosmos. Please give careful consideration to our declaration that it might serve as a basis for good relations. Section One We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all peoples are created equal and are endowed by the Creator with certain inalienable rights. Section Two The right of Possession of their homeworld, their Planet of Genesis. No one shall take any portion of their world from them. Section Three The right of Sanctity of Planet of Genesis from alien intrusion or interference. No alien visitation shall occur until the people realize their Unity and achieve space travel of their own; this is the Prime Directive for all space-faring peoples. No alien spacecraft shall make close approach, or assume close orbit, or make any landing, except openly and by consent of global authority. Section Four The right of Possession of Genetic Code. No alien shall take a people's Genetic Code for any use, except under reciprocal scientific exchange, negotiated openly by global authority. Section Five The right to permanent occupation of all bodies orbiting their Planet of Genesis of the sun of their Planet, which is their Star of Genesis, and permanent authority over the space containing these bodies. No alien bases may be established permanently on bodies or stations orbiting a Planet or Star of Genesis, but must be evacuated upon landing by the people of this Planet or Star, except there shall be negotiated a treaty granting temporary lease. Section Six The right of Freedom of Peaceful Navigation of Space shall be enjoyed by all peoples except where it conflicts with the Sanctity of Planet of Genesis. Section Seven The right of peoples to Assert and Defend the aforementioned rights and the right to give and receive aid consistent with These rights, when these rights shall be endangered. In case of dispute, the burden of proof-of-innocence shall fall on those who are alien, for it is the burden of the strong and advanced to help preserve the rights of the weak and less advanced. Final Article We pledge to uphold these rights and principals in all relations with all peoples we shall encounter, whether we be aliens or they in these encounters. We declare that all peoples should seek to treat all other peoples as they themselves would desire to be treated, and that all peoples of the Cosmos should seek peaceful and mutually beneficial relations with each other. We declare that it is our deepest desire that humanity might take its place as an honored and valuable member of the community of peoples of the Cosmos. OWNERSHIP OF THE RAINBOW DECLARATION The Rainbow Declaration was written by my hand, and I am very proud of it; however, it does not belong to me. It belongs to whomever embraces it and believes its truths and affirmations. The Declaration is, for this reason, not copyrighted and anyone may reproduce or sell copies of it with my blessings. It is my gift to humanity, because of humanity's faith and courage and strength. Perhaps a better declaration could be written; I encourage anyone to try, but I desire, rather, that the Rainbow Declaration will be embraced by you for now, so that humanity can move forward into its destiny. THE RAINBOW DECLARATION AS NECESSARY I believe the Rainbow Declaration, or some similar statement of principles, is vital to the future of humanity. Without such a document it will be harder for humanity to find the Way to its true destiny. The history of humanity is a history of great documents that state transcendent principles. These documents and declarations have served to light the Way of humanity and not only articulated the consensus of the people but helped form it. I therefore urge that the Rainbow Declaration or some similar declaration be endorsed by the major organizations of Ufology and from them to the Congress, and then to the United Nations, so that all of humanity might come together on these vital issues while we have time to discuss them objectively. Before the future can occur, it must be imagined. This is self-actualization. Let us imagine and proclaim for ourselves a future where humanity is a light to the Cosmos, rather than a blot upon it or a victim of it. Let it be that when other peoples of the Cosmos think of us they imagine a "Rainbow of Light." Let us look into the future. V ADVICE TO A YOUNG SPECIES You are a young vigorous species and new to the cosmic scene. You are strong and full of promise. Here is some advice for you. (1) Trust in God, Guts, and Guns to preserve you among the stars. (2) Beware of Greeks bearing gifts. (3) Do justly to all people and preserve the family of life on all worlds. (4) Never, never give in to bully boys with fancy toys. (5) Talk softly, but always carry a big stick. (6) A people becomes great because of what it loves -- not because of what it hates. (7) Boldly go where no one has gone before, and seek your kindred and your destiny among the stars. VI SUMMARY AND CONCLUSIONS I have tried to convey to you my understanding of the human situation and the destiny o humanity. I hope I have succeeded in causing you to think in new ways about the past, the present, and the future. I have spoken to you of the future and of an increase of knowledge. I have spoken of the day when Ufology as we know it, will pass away and will become exoanthropology, the outstretched hand of humanity to other peoples. For Ufology represents knowledge in part, and when knowledge that is whole comes, that which is in part must pass away. Exoanthropology will then become the forefront of humanity reaching out to other beings in the Cosmos. I have told you we are most likely involved in a dialogue with other people of the Cosmos. I think that if this is done, our long journey to reach humanity's destiny will begin on the right path and with the right guide. Life on Earth is sometimes harsh and brutal. Good does not survive or triumph on eArth merely because it exists. It must continually struggle. I see no reason to believe life in the Cosmos should be any different. I see on Earth the triumph of good, Goodliness, justice, and democracy, but only after a long and bitter struggle that sometimes looked hopeless. Earth is part of the Cosmos -- not an anomaly of it -- and good triumphs here. It must also triumph elsewhere. It is possible that Mars holds the same drama recorded there as we see on Earth, but this drama ended tragically there. If this is the case, let us never forget what Mars teaches us. Our participation in the dialogue of the Cosmos tells us the same message. I think there is much good in the Cosmos as well as evil; we know this from the reports of friendly, respectful contacts we have heard, and we know it from the good we see here on our own world and in our own people. This is how I know things will be well in the end. However, if we are to achieve this good, we must strive for it,k and we must declare our allegiance to it. We must be prepared for struggle to ensure the triumph of good. to see our true path, we must have open eyes and minds. We must be brave and force ourselves to comprehend what we do not want to comprehend, but which is true and must be accepted. Only then can our light truly shine in the Cosmos. I tell you again that based on my analyses, the Reticulians and their Axis allies mean to destroy humanity and possess this planet for themselves. The character, depth, and duration of their activities here can indicate nothing else. You must be prepared to use any means necessary to stop them in this intention: to surrender is death -- to fight them is life. I say further that if you are not prepared to accept this sad truth, even as a possibility, then you are not really ready to know the truth about the last forty years. I believe our government can no longer keep this Star Wars Secret any longer; to fight the Reticulians will require a level of resources and public sacrifice no secret program can ask. To gain victory over the Reticulians, mobilization, not secrecy, must become the government's first priority. The terrible truth must be let out to be confronted by the government and ourselves and all of Earth in the broad daylight. It is only then that this threat can be overcome. You have a role to play in this conflict. I have given you the Rainbow Declaration. It is a powerful weapon; use it. I believe, with God's help, humanity is strong enough, and brave enough, and clever enough, to triumph in this conflict which we did not begin. The Reticulians may be a Goliath technologically, but morally and ethically, they are pygmies; this is the root of their defeat. You may see in the Reticulians an ancient and brilliant race; I see a forlorn and empty people, fallen and corrupted from the state wherein they developed the technology they now possess, debasing themselves on the Earth, victimizing the helpless and crudely terrorizing the defenseless. Their actions reveal their weaknesses -- as it is said "what you are shouts so loud I cannot hear what you are saying." The fact that a nation should come to us from another star, riding in vessels of brilliant technology and yet commit unspeakable crimes here is shocking; yet it is quite consistent with our understanding of elemental evil from the ancient books. It is curious that Reticuli means "net," and the net is used throughout the Bible as a symbol of evil, misfortune, and also testing. As it is written in Ecclesiastes 9:11: "I returned and saw under the Sun that the race is not to the swift nor the battle to the strong, neither yet bread to the wise, nor yet riches to men of understanding, nor yet favour to men of skill; but time and chance happened to the all. "For a man knoweth not his time; as the fishes are taken in an evil net and as the birds that are caught in a snare; so are the sons of man snared in an evil time, when it falleth suddenly upon them." We also see the net used as symbol of testing in Matthew 13:01 and in the last, gentle moment of John's record of Jesus, (Reference 33) as perhaps an allegory of a testing of the nations of Earth, which like the fish netted in the story number roughly 150. So, perhaps someone who has known this all would occur has left these mysterious symbols of this knowledge. So, let us seek the Way and the truth and the light, and oppose evil with all our might. The Reticulians and their Axis do not know the Way; if they did, they would not do the things they have done here. As it is written, "by their fruits you shall know them." (Reference 34) So comfort yourselves in God and in the brave heritage of Earth. Perhaps a great storm comes, but all is calm now, and after forty years of the Reticulians's attempts to dominate here, the Earth still stands, and humanity still stands, more brilliant and more powerful than ever before. So, let us be of good courage; if the Reticulians are here to destroy us, then they are obviously having a difficult time. For Sun Tzu instructs us: (Reference 35) "There fore I have heard of military operations that were clumsy, but swift, but I have never seen one that was skillful and lasted a long time. It is never beneficial to a nation to have a military operation continue a long time." If it is so, and I suspect it is, our government, rather than being a villain, is actually a hero in many ways as are many of our abductees, who have resisted the terror tactics of the Reticulians. It is mainly the government that has opposed the Reticulians for forty years. Let us remember also that if the Secret Star Wars scenario is true, then many brave men of our nation and many other nations have died fighting in a war that few even guessed existed, their loved ones never knowing why they died or how. This same government made up of men and women like ourselves and prone to the same mistakes, has struggled mightily to both hold the Reticulians' Axis at bay and at the same time carry on a dialogue with them to try and gain desperately needed knowledge of their technology. If this is so, then it is little wonder that the truth has been hidden and why those who knew it have kept this truth with such determined secrecy. For no one can keep a secret like a man who believes he holds truths that will devastate those whom he loves. So, let us not judge our government nor condemn them for the mistakes they may have made in this struggle. I have not walked in their shoes and neither have you, so let us stand with them. SUMMARY In summary, I have stressed three main points: (1) That it is the destiny of humanity to find its greatness and its kindred among the stars. (2) The humanity is prepared for this destiny because the Earth is a microcosm of the Cosmos and its people, with the dynamics between people in the Cosmos resembling the dynamics of nations on Earth. (3) That in order to find the Way to its destiny, humanity must make a document similar to the Rainbow Declaration its creed and guide. It is only in this way that humanity can find the right Way to its true destiny in the stars. Finally, trust in God, for He made the Cosmos both seen and unseen and all it contains. Surely He has helped us already against the dangers of the Cosmos. But He has also allowed these dangers to come upon us for His own mysterious reasons. Let us not disappoint him in our dealing with these dangers. God delights in courage and bravery. Be people of faith, like it is written, who "turned to fight the armies of the aliens. (Reference 36) Joyfully go forth to seek the wonders and challenges that lay beyond the present and which are our destiny. So humanity, beloved children of Earth, reach for the stars...boldly go... REFERENCES 1. John E. Brandenburg, MUFON UFO Journal, p. 15, October (1989). 2. T. Walter Wallbank, Alistair M. Taylor, and Nels M. Bailey, Civilization Past and Present 3rd Edition, p. 14, Scott, Foreman, and Company, Glenview, Illinois (1967). 3. Preston Cloud, Oasis in Space, p. 402, W.W. Norton and Company, New York (1988). 4. Whitley Streiber, Transformation: The Breakthrough, p. 10, Beech Tree Books, William Morrow, New York (1988). 5. Ananda Sirisena, Beyond Science, U.K. (out of print). 6. Carl G. Jung et al, Man and His Symbols, p.55, Doubleday and Company, New York (1964). 7. James Strong, The Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, p.1189, Abington Press, New York, Copyright 1890. 8. Timothy Good, Above Top Secret, P. 293, William Morrow and Company, Inc., New York (1988). 9. Jane Goodall, The Chimpanzees of Gombe: Patterns of Behavior, p. 529, The Belknap Press of Harvard University Press, London (1986). 10. Robert T. Bakker, The Dinosaur Heresies: New Theories Unlocking The Mystery of the Dinosaurs and Their Extinction, p. 371, William Morrow and Company, New York (1986). 11. Civilization Past and Present, p. 16. 12. Carl Sagan and Iosef S. Shkolovskii, Intelligent Life in The Universe, Holden Day, San Francisco (1960). 13. L.S. Stavrianos, The World Since 1500, A Global History, Prentice Hall, Inc., Englewood Cliffs, N.J. (1971). 14. Carl Von Clausewitz, On War, p. 119, Penguin Books, London (1968). 15. Sun Tzu, translation by Thomas Cleary, The Art of War, p. 41, Shambhala, Boston, and Shaftsbury (1968). 16. Terence Dickenson, "The Zeta Reticuli Incident," p. 7, Astromedia Corp. (publishers of Astronomy Magazine) Milwaukee, Wisconsin (1976). 17. The Art of War, p. 67. 18. Ibid. p. 43. 19. Ibid. p. 91. 20. Ibid. p. 104. 21. "Transformation: The Breakthrough," p. 94. 22. Linda Moulton Howe, An Alien Harvest, p. 355, Pioneer Printing, Cheyenne, Wyoming (1989). 23. Budd Hopkins, Intruders: The Incredible Visitations At Copely Woods, p. 118, Ballentine Books, New York (1987) 24. Jacques F. Vallee, MUFON 1989 International UFO Symposium Proceedings, p. 32. 25. Jorge Martin, MUFON UFO Journal, p. 20, January 1990. 26. Above Top Secret, p. 273. 27. John Lear, Private Communication. 28. The Bible, Luke 4:9-12. 29. The Bible, II Corinthians 11:14. 30. The Art of War, p. 168. 31. The Bible, Genesis 1:21. 32. John A. Garraty, The American Nation, p. 777, Harper and Row Publishers, New York (1975). 33. The Bible, John 21:6-11. 34. The Bible, Matthew 7:20. 35. The Art of War, p. 58. 36. The Bible, Hebrews 11:34. DISCLAIMER BY THE MUTUAL UFO NETWORK This article is based upon compiled material researched by John E. Brandenburg, Ph.D. from numerous sources per the references indicated at the end of his paper. Contingent upon his study and research into this vitally important problem, this is his personal scenario, evaluation and predictions to the mystery behind the alien/entities conflict and their possible intentions for the people of the planet Earth. Some readers may consider that his entire scenario is nothing more then science fiction relating to the present and future. Historical events and the Bible support the past. Historians remind us that we should heed the past with a jaundice and educated eye, because experience gained and mistakes committed provide the wisdom for future decisions in our lives and that of our worldly constituents. We must never lose sight of the fact that yesterdays science fiction is tomorrows reality --Buck Rogers yesterday and NASA space travel today. As a physicist, Dr. Brandenburg, has presented his personal explanation and forecast for the future as it relates to the visitation of extraterrestrial entities to the planet Earth and the serious implications to mankind of their apparent intent. The theme of the 1990 symposium proceedings is "UFOs: The Impact of E.T. Contact Upon Society." This paper has been Dr. Brandenburg's scholarly attempt to address the theme as he views today and the subsequent tomorrows within the near future. Conservative Ufologists may attribute the majority of his predictions to science fiction, whereas thinking people and futurists, conceivably, will incorporate his recommendations into their future planning in order to sustain the freedoms and lifestyle that we have grown to appreciate. If his scenario as forecast is true and becomes a reality, all of us should be vitally concerned for our future and well being. Trying not to be repetitious, I must reiterate that the disclaimer on the inside cover of the proceedings applies to Dr. Brandenburg's paper, as well as to all other published papers. It is surprising to learn how few people read the disclaimer and automatically assume that John is speaking for the Mutual UFO Network. Dr. Brandenburg is speaking for himself on a very controversial issue that deserves to be exposed, heard and read. Walter H. Andrus, Jr. MUFON International Director and Proceedings Editor PARANET FILE NAME: RAINBOW.DEC EOF ----------------------------------------------------------------- Don -- -* Don Allen *- InterNet: dona@bilver.UUCP // Amiga..for the best of us. USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-) UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!vicstoy!dona KING George Bush?? Just say NO! UFO's in commercials....is the GOVT getting us ready for OCTOBER of 1992? Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!moe.ksu.ksu.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!caen!nstar!sara From: sara@nstar.rn.com (Sara Gordon) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Communion Question Message-ID: Date: 25 Aug 91 16:41:12 GMT References: <1991Aug24.030510.3456@bilver.uucp> Sender: news@news.rn.com (Usenet News) Organization: NSTAR, Indiana's BBS 219-289-0287/317-251-7391 Lines: 14 Nntp-Posting-Host: zztop.rn.com fyi..those authors include their addresses, but they do not write -back- from my experience; they do not send you mail about their new books or changes of heart. in fact, i do not know WHY they put their addresses in their books. probably just so that after you write them, you can sit and wonder daily how long til the helicopters will fly over YOUR house. -- Sara Gordon Northern Star 8 line BBS 219-289-0287/317-251-7391 internet: sara@nstar.rn.com uucp: ..!uunet!nstar.rn.com!sara -= newsfeeds available, contact robert@towers.rn.com =- Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!cis.ohio-state.edu!pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu!linac!att!att!fang!tarpit!bilver!dona From: dona@bilver.uucp (Don Allen) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy Subject: FILE: The Meier Case & Its Spirituality Message-ID: <1991Aug25.011527.12405@bilver.uucp> Date: 25 Aug 91 01:15:27 GMT Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL Lines: 532 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:1847 alt.conspiracy:6737 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- This information is presented for your persusal and is a continuation of my policy of informing the public what is currently available. The content of this information does NOT necessarily reflect the personal views of the poster,nor should the views,opinions,statements or claims represented in the following be accepted by anyone reading these texts at *face* value. If this interests you, please endeavor to research it yourself and investigate it to *your* satisfaction, and as such I will leave it in your hands to either prove it or de-bunk it :-) As I do not have a great amount of time available to pursue follow-ups exclusively, comments to me should be directed to dona@bilver.uucp in mail. --------------------------------------------------------------------- UFO CONTACTEE The Meier Case & Its Spirituality By James W. Deardorff Jim Deardorff is a retired professor (emeritus) from the Department of Atmospheric Sciences at Oregon State University in Corvallis, Oregon, a former senior scientist at the National Center for Atmospheric Research in Boulder, Colorado, and a fellow of both the American Association for the Advancement of Science. In the 1980s his interest shifted towards study of the UFO phenomenon, and in 1986 he retired early in order to study the Meier case and its implications. Since then, he has devoted nearly full time twords becoming a New Testament scholar in order to better investigate a document discussed in this article: the Talmud Jmmanuel. His upcoming book on the subject, Celestial Teachings: The Emergence of the True Testament of Jmmanuel (Jesus) will be available this year from Blue Water Publishing. (See resource list following article.) * * * * Among those who investigate UFO cases, the Meier case is well known and needs no introduction. Among others, if it is known at all it is most likely because of the book Light Years by Gary Kinder, which became available to most bookstores in 1987. Eduard Meier is a 52-year-old Swiss citizen who reported that his main series of UFO contacts commenced in 1975 from human-looking beings; they told him they came from the Pleiades in certain UFO-like craft which they call beamships. For the Cherokees, Navahos, and Incas, who claim to be decended from sky-gods who came from the Pleiades, this possibility might not seem too surprising. From 1975 until 1978, Meier was contacted by one of several Pleiadeans, usually through mental telepathy, in order to arrange a time, usually late at night, to have face-to-face contact meetings. These meetings occurred about once every ten days, on the average, but only after Meier had successfully reached the contact point unaccompanied by others. These contacts were held in the hills several miles southeast of Zurich, with the contact discussions on most occasions taking place right in the Pleiadean's beamship. Meier's primary contactor was a Pleiadean woman who gave her name as Semjase. The topics of the conversations raged all over, from small talk to science and history to spirituality. After the first several contacts, during which Semjase had much to tell Meier about why he had been selected, he was allowed to ask her numerous questions. Interspersed with these contacts, the Pleiadeans supplied Meier with 19 daytime occasions, in 1975 and 1976 and again 1981, on which he could photograph from one to four of their space craft at a time. This was for support of the reality of his contacts when describing them to others. As a result, he ended up with a collection of over 500 color photographs of their craft hovering both near and far, and sometimes partially eclipsed by branches of a foreground tree. On six of these occasions he also had an 8mm movie camera along with him with which he obtained movie-film sequences. All this was far too much for most ufologists who learned of it; first the European UFO organizations and then the American ones, by the late 1970s and early 1980s, roundly rejected the case, declaring it must be a hoax. It was an American investigative team headed by Wendelle Stevens, a retired Air Force colonel, which looked into the case in greatest detail, from 1977 on. Stevens and his associates found all kinds of evidence of genuineness in the photographs, and no evidence that a hoax had been commited. They could find no means available by which Meier could have faked the objects in the photos (which in many instances could not possibly have been small models close to the camera, as we shall see); nor could they find any means by which Meier could have faked the photos themselves, and no financial means by which he could have paid others to achieve these ends. There are also some two dozen secondary witnesses who support the authenticity of the case -- people who, for example, saw UFO lights at night or dusk just before or after Meier attended a contact meeting, and others who photographed peculiar circular areas of grass depressed into a counterclockwise swirling pattern, on the day after a contact meeting, at spots where Meier reported Semjase's beamship had hovered close to the ground. (The grass would continue to grow out horizontally for weeks afterward, rather than growing vertically or dying.) There are four named witnesses who saw Meier "materialize" once in their midst just after a contact meeting, and one of them witnessed the same on a second occasion. According to Meier, this was done through the use of Pleiadean technology, when the beamship was hovering invisibly nearby. The first book to support the case, written by Lee and Brit Elders, and Tom Welch -- members of Stevens' investigative team -- appeared in 1979 and was like an annotated photo-album. In addition to large blow-ups of many of the color photos, UFO... Contact from the Pleiades, Vol. 1, included some quotations of what Semjase and other Pleiadeans had told Meier. In 1983 they came out with Vol. 2. In between, Stevens authored his own book on the case giving voluminous details -- a book now out in print, as are Vols. 1 and 2. One of Meier's photos, the "sun-glint" photo, is shown above right (not available for this article, please refer to "UFO fro the Pleiades, by W. Stevens," page 436, picture #174) . According to Stevens' data, the photo was centered twords the south west, so that the setting sun, on March 29th, 1976, would have been off to the right of the photo. The foreground is in the shade, but golden rays from the sun are clearly visible in the original color photograph, reflecting off the hovering object's upper right side in two streams extending down across the object's facing underside. Since the tree which is apparently in front of the object is in the shade, along with the rest of the foreground, the object must have been somewhat more distant in order to have intercepted the last rays of light from the sun. It must then have had a diameter close to what Semjase told Meier -- about 23 feet. The tree could not have been a model, since Stevens has a picture of it taken a year and a half later when it was in leaf. Another point of reality in this photo is that the reflected golden rays, made visible by the smog often present over much of Europe and especially just east of Zurich, should not have been visible if the object had been a small model up close to the camera, even if the foreground had been illuminated by the sun. There would not then have been enough viewing distance through the sun's rays to render them visible, unless the smog had been do dense that the hills in the distance would have been obscured. The second photo shown (opposite page, top left [not available for this article, please refer to "UFO from the Pleiades," page 383, picture #66]) is from a series in which the beamship posed on various sides of a fir tree. Two professors of the forestry at Oregon State University to whom I showed some of these photos had no difficulty identifying the tree as a mature abies alba (European silver fir). Hence it could not have been a model tree, with a model UFO attached. Soon after Meier took that series of photos, the tree top turned brown, as often been noticed on other instances when the UFO came too close to some vegetation. Still later, the tree disappeared, and when Meier quizzed Semjase about this, he was told that they had "changed its time." Thus, that the tree no longer exists in the here-and-now as continuing evidence by which the UFO's diameter might be judged. Supporters of the Meier case can look upon this as an indication that these Pleiadeans feel a responsibility tword living things with which they interact, while detractors ignore the reality indicated by these photos because they feel that it should not be possible for any alien civilization, no matter how far advanced over us, to perform such an act. The more photographs Meier accumulated, and the more his experiences with the Pleiadeans came to the attention of ufologists, the more incredible his case appeared to them. It became evident that if the case were genuine, it would mean that these alleged extraterrestrials, or ETs and those aliens responsible for more "ordinary" UFO sightings worldwide, presently have a covert strategy of dealing with us -- one which never provides enough evidence to satisfy scientists and skeptics, but nevertheless lets their presence and some of their capabilities be known to others who are able to accept their potential reality. If they have such a strategy, it would mean that such ETs are more experienced than we, are at least as smart or smarter, and have some sort of ethical code designed not to send our civilization into a sudden culture shock. Such conclusions are not yet acceptable to most ufologists, hence very few of them pursued the case far enough to learn what it was the Pleiadeans had told Meier. Of those who did, some were offended to learn that the Pleiadeans espouse a spiritual philosophy which is largely at odds with Judeo- Christian concepts. This only fueled their hostility twords the case. It was early in his life that Meier was first contacted, via telepathy, by a Pleiadean male. But in his twenties his contacts were taken over by a female who said her race was a close collaborator with the Pleiadeans, and from another universe. Only in the last couple of decades have some scientists postulated the existence of multiple universes. However, the thought that there could ever be any communication or travel between universes is entirely unacceptable by today's science. The thought that any one human could be selected out for such contact is equally unacceptable. It has been found that many of these abduction victims had been subject to recurring UFO incidents, often dating back to childhood, so that it is now becoming evident to most ufologists that ETs do single out particular people upon whom they wish to experiment, or with whom they wish to communicate. Still, if certain subjects are supplied with extensive messages from the ETs, while not being treated as traumatically as are the abductees, they are considered to be frauds unworthy of study by the UFO organizations. Hence, the contactees, like Meier, remain mostly ignored. During some of Meier's early ET experiences, in the 1950s and 1960s, he was urged to learn all he could, through first-hand experience, about Earth's various religions. This he did in travels to India and the Mideast, and by the mid-1970s he was prepared for the spiritual philosophy to which the Pleiadeans educated him. It is a philosophy emphasizing the immortality of the individual spirit or soul, and its purpose in life of learning -- learning even when it means making mistakes and learning from the mistakes. The learning goes on in successive lifetimes, or reincarnations, over which time the soul gradually evolves and accumulates memories and knowledge normally unavailable to us except as feelings of conscience. Their philosophy also involves living in harmony with nature, avoiding stripping a hospitable planet of its resources, avoiding pollution of the environment and over-population, refraining from nuclear industries and armaments, and avoiding excesses and extremes. They stress the holistic approach, and the bringing together of logical reasoning and physic power. Needless to say, these Pleiadeans take a dim view of the adverse treatment by governments and institutions of Earth's peoples and environment. Now, all of this represents concepts common to many other ET contactees' messages, concepts common to the New Age movement, and concepts common to the Amerindian heritage. Partly for this very reason, ufologists have tended to reject it all as too banal to be worth study. They can also point to various inconsistencies between different messages allegedly stemming from ETs, and to apparent absurdities within some of the messages, as reasons to dismiss all contactees. Instead of studying the communications openly to attempt to learn why they may possess certain puzzling aspects, ufologists reject the messages by assuming that if they contain anything other than the truth as 20th century science knows it, the messages must represent hoaxes or the result of misguided imaginations. One reason for this behavior is that if they treat these messages seriously, they fear ridicule from scientists whom they are trying to woo into the field of ufology. They greatly fear the possibility of being taken in by some giant hoax, even if they cannot begin to explain how such a hoax could have been carried out. And they fear the criticism of scientists sympathetic to CSICOP (Committee for the Scientific Investigation of Claims of the Paranormal) if they adopt a stance that the claims of any genuine contactees ought to involve aspects of an advanced technology totally beyond our understanding. The Meier case stands out from all the other contactee cases and their messages, however, in being the only one supplied with very extensive photographic evidence in support of its overall reality. Hence the fear of being taken by a hoax is greatest of all for this case. Yet, interspersed in Meier's evidence are ambiguities and unexplained oddities which can keep skeptics satisfied that their criticisms are justified. This would again seem to be part of an ET strategy, if the ETs possess a level of ethics which forbids forcing their views upon the majority of a planet's population. Meier's contact notes, as well as many other contactees' messages, do profess this philosophy of non-interference on a societal level. The strategy will su cceed as long as skeptics and scientists insist that all of a UFO witness's testimony and all of a contactee's evidence must be proven genuine beyond any reasonable doubt; failing this, the witness is declared mistaken and the UFO contactee guilty of a hoax or hallucination. Gary Kinder's 3-year investigation of the Meier case, leading to Light Years, confirmed among other things that Meier's 35mm color film had indeed been processed through normal commercial channels. Kinder was also able to obtain further opinions from scientists and technicians to the effect that either the objects were truly hovering in the distance, or Meier was an extremely clever hoaxer. Analysis of certain metal samples Meier claimed to have been given him by Semjase, and of a sound-track recording Meier had taken of a beamship while is was hovering invisibly, produced similar statements supporting their strangeness and seeming impossibility of hoaxing. However, the UFO organizations had long since commited themselves to debunking the case, and since Kinder was not himself either a ufologist or a photographic technician, his positive findings made no visible impact upon the UFO organization leaders. Certain aspects of the case seemed too incredible for Kinder himself to accept, and he was not interested in its spiritual side. Thus, he failed to even mention what is perhaps the most remarkable feature of the case. It is a document, called the Talmud Jmmanuel (TJ), a translation of which fell into Meier's possession in the early 1970s, and which reads as if it is the original writing of the teachings of Jesus. The original ancient document is said to have been written in Aramaic, but to have been destroyed by those who felt threatened by its existence. Before its destruction, however, the translator, a Lebanese ex-prist who knew German, mailed the section he had translated to Meier, whom he had met in the 1960s. Later, the translat or was killed by an assassin for his efforts. Meier, in turn, was told by Semjase that this was Earth's most important writing, and that he should distribute it to interested and sincere parties. According to Meier's contact notes it was no accident that while in the Mideast he met the man who the Pleiadeans had prompted to locate the TJ, and became its recipient. The TJ would seem to represent the logia, or sayings of Jesus, which the early second century bishop, Papias from Caesarea, had in mind when he wrote "Matthew compiled the logia [of the Lord] in the Hebrew language, and each interpreted them as best he could." Scholars have been pondering the meaning of this sentence ever since, with the early 20th century theologian, Burnette Streeter, suggesting it might mean that these logia had no authorized translation. This in turn would imply that they had been heretical, and required heavy editing by the Christian scribe of Jewish background who attached Matthew's name to his new gospel. Meier learned from the TJ's translator that the document did not make its way to the Palestine area until around the turn of the first century, when a copy embedded in resin was buried in the Jerusalem area, to remain there for about 1900 years, while another copy (or the original) apparently found its way to the early Christian church to form the basis of the gospels. The TJ is briefly mentioned in the chief booklet disparaging the Meier case, one written by Kal Korff, once a young associate of the ufologist William Moore. However, none of its remarkable aspects were noted, perhaps because of its heretical contents, or because of the intention to debunk the case. The TJ explains most of the outstanding questions which have plagued Christian scholars for centuries, but in a manner much more creative than one would expect from any hoaxer or group of New Testament scholar-hoaxers. Its emphasis on the "power of the spirit" can explain why the Gnostic movement suddenly flourished in the early second century. From it one can deduce interesting relationships between the Gospels of Matthew and Mark, and the ir origins. About 21% of its content is very similar to that of Matthew, another 23% is recognizable as having parallel passages to those in Matthew, but with different meanings, and nearly all the rest is fresh material -- mostly heretical from a Christian viewpoint. An example of the latter is this TJ verse: There is no eye that is equal to wisdom, no darkness equal to ignorance, no power equal to the power of the spirit, and no terror equal to spiritual poverty. Here, and elsewhere in the TJ, "spirit" refers to the individuals spirit. An example of a minor difference between verses of Matthew and the TJ is: Matthew 13:54 and coming to his own country he taught them in their synagogue.... TJ 15:68 And he came into his father's city, Nazareth, and taught in the synagogue.... Few scholars even know that this verse of Matthew has been criticized, three years after the TJ came out in print, for not naming Nazareth explicitly, as if the compiler of Matthew did not wish to name the town which once rejected Jesus. Also, "the ir synagogue" has been criticized as reflecting the later viewpoint of a writer or scribe at a time when the split between Judaism and Christianity was still taking place. The TJ suffers from neither criticism. Meier's very limited school education does not lend itself to the hoax theory here. His schooling did not extend past about the seventh-grade level, due to his ET contacts as a youth. He is thus an extremely poor candidate to be a hoaxer who could contact biblical scholars and bribe them into writing a gospel which creatively solves a host of New Testament problems. An example where the verses are similar but the messages are quite different is: Matthew 5:3 Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. TJ 5:3 Blessed are they who are rich in spirit and recognize the truth, for life belongs to them. Scholars of Matthew have had trouble with this verse for many decades, arguing that "poor in spirit" must mean either poor in material possessions or humble. The implication from the TJ is that the compiler of Matthew preferred "poor in spirit" as a condition which would encourage followers of the new religion to accept its teachings rather than rely upon one's own knowledge and conscience. The TJ similarly avoids some 180 other criticisms of Matthew which various New Testament scholars have made, some of them only after 1978, and another 60 criticisms which can be deduced in hindsight. In the TJ, Jesus bears the name Immanuel (but spelled with a J), with Paul implicated as the man who assigned the name "Jesus" in order to support his theology of "God saves us from our sins," which the Hebrew-derived name, Jesus, implies. Now, Paul also taught resurrection, while Jmmanuel teaches reincarnation, amongst many other things in the TJ. It is interesting that Paul had been a Pharisee before his conversion on the road to Damascus, and that the Pharisees had believed in resurrection after death (not reincarnation) since about the first century B.C. This, combined with several passages within Matthew which suggest that Jesus or his disciples had been discussing reincarnation, lends much the plausibility to the TJ text and its i mplication that the earliest writings upon which the gospels are based received very heavy editing around the turn of the century, some 50 years after Paul's interpretations had taken hold. One concept in Matthew's gospel which is to be found in the TJ is the value of striving for righteousness. An even more important one is the Golden Rule: "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." The Golden Rule bears a close relationship to cause and effect, and to karma, which inevitably accompanies the concept of evolution of the soul, which Jmmanuel taught. It is interesting that the concept of reincarnation has arisen from observations quite independent of any religious teachings. Data have been accumulating in the files of those psychiatrists who have carefully studied childhood cases of the "reincarnation type." In these cases, of worldwide distribution, an occasional child, usually between ages of two and six, will be noticed by parents or relatives to talk spontaneously at times as if he or she were actually someone else. Often the child makes enough statements so that the "someone else" can be identified beyond reasonable doubt as a particular person who had died some years or months before the birth of the child in question. Ian Stevenson, author of cases of the Reincarnation Type (four volumes published between 1975 and 1980), has over a thousand "solved" cases of this nature in his files, along with a comparable number of unsolved cases. After the child exceeds an age of from six to ten, the past-life memories generally fade away. In most contactee cases, not just with the Meier case, and apparently with a large proportion of abductees as well, the subject, as a result of his or her UFO experiences, ends up believing in the reality of reincarnation. This phenomenon has close links to the prevalent belief of reincarnation within the New Age movement. Of course, it is also an old belief having been part of many cultures including various Native American peoples, such as the Lenapes of Delaware and New Jersey, the Hopis, the Pueblos, and Eskimos -- especially the Tlingets of southern Alaska -- and of many South Pacific Peoples. The TJ bears a direct relationship to the UFO phenomenon. For example, the voice at the baptism of Jmmanuel in the Jordon River comes from the "metallic light" into which he enters and is then taken away for intense education for forty days and nights. While the TJ's text is largely unacceptable to both Christianity and Judaism, it cannot be discussed or examined openly by Western scholars whether they are Christian or not because of such UFO aspects. Furthermore, since its alleged Aramaic version was said to have been destroyed, the TJ translation can be quickly dismissed on the grounds of lack of hard evidence by any who do examine it only cursorily. Thus, it is nothing that any skeptic with fixed opinions need feel threatened by. The TJ adds another dimension to the Meier case. Detractors already must assume that Meier was skilled in the rapid writing (without making any revisions) of voluminous conversational novels which read like self-consistant and very interesting contact notes, that he had collaborators exceedingly skilled in fake photography with access to very expensive equipment, and that he had great magical talents with which to deceive secondary witnesses. With the TJ, they must also assume that he had gained access to the services of one or more apostate New Testament scholars who were very knowledgeable and creative. All this they must assume he accomplished with no money available by which to reimburse the unknown accomplices. It is clear that if Meier and his evidence are not taken at face value, he would have needed several accomplices to obtain even less credible photographs of hovering UFOs than he has -- perhaps ten or fifteen accomplices by some estimates -- since he lost his left arm just above the elbow in 1965, and could scarcely have deployed 23-foot models of UFOs all by himself. If his evidence is taken at face value, his accomplices were the Pleiadeans. According to Meier's contact notes, the Pleiadeans were themselves aided in their Earth operations by several other ET races working cooperatively with them. However, another ET group with less power is also mentioned as working against them whenever they could. In this respect Meier's experiences suggest that some things never change! There has not been space to discuss but a fraction of all the evidence and details which support Meier's photographs and reports, nor space to discuss but a fraction of the complaints of critics. One of these complaints is that the Pleiades is an open star cluster only some 70 million years old -- far too young by our understanding to contain any hospitable planets. Before the Pleiadeans had moved to the Pleiades, Meier was told, they had emigrated from a planet within the constellation we call Lyra. When Meier asked Semjase about the habitability within the Pleiades, her reply was too occult to be understandable, involving mention of a parallel set of "time-shifted dimensions." This kind of response is of course frowned upon by skeptics. Although they realize that an alien civilization which can visit Earth may be many millennia ahead of ours in technology, they continually revert to the thinking which says that late 20th century science ought to be able to understand all things reported by a genuine contactee. Otherwise, they feel, the case should be rejected on "scientific" grounds. However, one of the primary complaints -- that if anyone claims to have had many different occasions upon which he or she, and scarcely anyone else, was able to take photographs of hovering UFOs, they should be dismissed as some kind of nut or egomaniac -- now needs reconsideration by ufologists. Between November 1987 and May, 1988, a man with the pseudonym of "Ed" of Gulf Breeze, Florida, was supplied with 18 opportunities to photograph hovering UFOs of two or three different physical shapes. Several members of our nation's largest UFO organization, MUFON (Mutual UFO Network), soon kept a close watch on Ed's activities, but he kept receiving opportunities to photograph hovering objects with his Polaroid camera when the MUFON personnel and others (except sometimes for his wife) were not around. These UFOs usually seemed to have a base diameter of from 8 to 15 feet. After Ed's 16th UFO incident, the MUFON investigators realized that his experiences were ongoing, so they supplied him with a stereo camera with sealed-in film on February 10th, 1988. However, the hovering object Ed later photographed with this camera, on February 26th, was determined to have a length of only 3 to 4 feet, causing detractors to pronounce it a model. For better future estimates of the size and distance of such a relatively small UFO, the main investigators decided Ed needed a stereo camera system with more resolving power, which they instructed him how to put together. Then, on May 1st, with this camera system he photographed a hovering object whose base diameter was later analyzed, through triangulation, to be about 14 feet, at a range of about 475 feet out over water. The object had the same crown-like appearance as what Ed had photographed earlier with his Polaroid camera, in one frame of which three of them are shown together. After May 1, 1988, it appears that Ed experienced an abduction event, and though he may seem to be a contactee with respect to his photographic opportunities, he has actually been treated as an abductee in all other respects. The MUFON investigators can see much reality in Ed's photographs, and cannot come up with any plausible scenario of how he could have fraudulently manufactured any significant fraction of the evidence, especially since there are over a hundred other people in the area who have apparently witnessed similar UFOs over the same half-year period. Yet, other ufologists, mostly from other UFO organizations, keep in mind only the ambiguous aspects of the case and remain very negative about its reality . It is clear that if the case is no hoax, it would mean that UFO intelligences have a sophisticated strategy of dealing with us, and this is still an unacceptable thought to many. Hence, we see that skeptics who explore a case which contains some unacceptable aspects, simply dismiss those other aspects which support genuineness. In a case like this involving several thousand pieces of data input, they can confine their attention to the numerous ambiguous aspects without wondering if the ambiguities might reflect the presence of an advanced technology. The same apparently holds true for the Meier case. If the Meier case was meant for educating some segment of humanity, it would appear that the Gulf Breeze case was meant for educating ufologists! Should that case ever receive solid endorsements of genuiness from this country's UFO organizations, there is likely to be some demand for re-exploring the Meier case. In the meantime, it is up to each interested individual to decide for himself or herself, after obtaining all accessible information, whether or not the Meier case seems genuine. It is especially instructive, after thoroughly digesting the data and photographs within the materials on the case authored by Lee and Brit Elders, Wendelle Stevens, and Gary Kinder, to access one's own odds that Eduard Meier could have come up with the extensive color photographs and other credible evidence in his possession if he had not received continuing ET help. For the person who is more interested in a summary of what is to be learned from Meier's experiences and ET communications than in the evidence for or against the case, a quotation from Meier's wife, Kalliope, from Vol. 2 of UFO...Contact from the Pleiades by Lee and Brit Elders, well expresses it: "In June of 1976, seven people were waiting with me for Billy [Eduard] to come back from a contact. He came and said to us, 'go with me to another point.' We went and waited. It was daylight and one of the boys told us to look up into the sky. It was our first sighting in the day. The ship was very big but got smaller as it rose, and I clearly saw the detail around the top of the ship. I saw little ports, and the whole UFO seemed to be light. The children, three other woman and one man saw it too. There are many lights going across the sky at night and I cannot be sure what they are, but this I am sure was the ship of Semjase. I didn't believe it before because I had never talked about UFO's or seen one. But after this day...I believe. Now the UFO's are secondary, the information from the Pleiadians comes first. We have to learn to live together...man and woman, different countries, different races and different worlds." For literature which debunks the Meier contactee case, write William Moore, 4219 W. Olive St., Suite 247, Burbank, CA. 91505. For information on video tapes which tell the positive side of the story, showing some of Meier's photos and movie-film footage, and especially for the video called "Contact," write Lee or Brit Elders at Genesis III Publishing, P.O. Drawer JJ, Munds Park, AZ. 86017. For information about purchasing the Talmud Jmmanuel, write Eduard Meier, Ch- 8495, Hinterschmidruti/ZH, Switzerland. For more information about the Talmud Jmmanuel, please write Blue Water Publishing, P.O. Box 230893, Tigard, OR. 97224, for the availability of the book Celestial Teachings: The Emergence of the True Testament of Jmmanuel (Jesus), By James Deardorff. For other information concerning this article, please write the author at the Department of Atmospheric Sciences, Oregon State University, Corvallis, OR. 97221. July 6, 1991: UPDATE The updated English/German version of the Talmud Jammanuel can be purchased from: Wild Flower Press, P.O. Box 230893 Dept. CT, Tigard, Oregon 97224. EOF ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Don -- -* Don Allen *- InterNet: dona@bilver.UUCP // Amiga..for the best of us. USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-) UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!vicstoy!dona KING George Bush?? Just say NO! UFO's in commercials....is the GOVT getting us ready for OCTOBER of 1992? Path: ns-mx!uunet!cis.ohio-state.edu!ucbvax!dog.ee.lbl.gov!hellgate.utah.edu!csn!scicom!paranet!p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG!Michael.Corbin From: Michael.Corbin@p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Michael Corbin) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: File: Oh Krill Part 4 (conclusion) Message-ID: <74333.28B88AAB@paranet.FIDONET.ORG> Date: 26 Aug 91 04:45:00 GMT Sender: ufgate@paranet.FIDONET.ORG (newsout1.26) Organization: FidoNet node 1:104/428.0 - ParaNet(sm) A, Arvada CO Lines: 23 > From: jms@vanth.UUCP (Jim Shaffer) > Date: 21 Aug 91 04:03:12 GMT > Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence > Message-ID: > Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy > Although you can say the O. H. Krill file is a fraud if it's intended to > be > a genuine alien- or government-authored document, I feel that it's > important to realize that it contains many quotes from other sources, > and > therefore might still be useful *if the sources can be verified as > reliable*. I agree, but that is the ingredients of disinformation. Most of the stuff contained in the document is stuff that can't be verified which may be legit government projects not related to UFOs, but have a classification which won't permit public disclosure. That is the problem with this stuff: sorting out the wheat from the chaff. Mike -- Michael Corbin - via FidoNet node 1:104/422 UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name INTERNET: Michael.Corbin@p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!qt.cs.utexas.edu!cs.utexas.edu!hellgate.utah.edu!csn!scicom!paranet!p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG!Michael.Corbin From: Michael.Corbin@p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Michael Corbin) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Apro Contact Message-ID: <74332.28B88AA9@paranet.FIDONET.ORG> Date: 26 Aug 91 04:43:00 GMT Sender: ufgate@paranet.FIDONET.ORG (newsout1.26) Organization: FidoNet node 1:104/428.0 - ParaNet(sm) A, Arvada CO Lines: 23 > From: beddow@ux.acs.umn.edu (Jeff Beddow) > Date: 22 Aug 91 21:39:35 GMT > Organization: University of Minnesota, Academic Computing Services > Message-ID: > Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors > Distribution:world > Anyone know how to get in touch with APRO? > They sponsored an interesting exhibit here in MPLS a > few years ago and I wonder what happened to it. APRO is no longer. Upon the deaths of Jim and Coral Lorenzen, the organization folded. Mike -- Michael Corbin - via FidoNet node 1:104/422 UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name INTERNET: Michael.Corbin@p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!qt.cs.utexas.edu!cs.utexas.edu!hellgate.utah.edu!csn!scicom!paranet!p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG!Michael.Corbin From: Michael.Corbin@p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Michael Corbin) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: One More Thought On Strieber Message-ID: <74334.28B88AAD@paranet.FIDONET.ORG> Date: 26 Aug 91 04:50:00 GMT Sender: ufgate@paranet.FIDONET.ORG (newsout1.26) Organization: FidoNet node 1:104/428.0 - ParaNet(sm) A, Arvada CO Lines: 25 > From: dona@bilver.uucp (Don Allen) > Date: 24 Aug 91 03:23:35 GMT > Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL > Message-ID: <1991Aug24.032335.3590@bilver.uucp> > Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors > A few weeks back, I posted over 100k of Blue Book reports that Don > Berliner > had compiled from his investigation when he had the notion (at the time) > to write a detailed book on the "missing reports". He released his work > into the public domain when he decided not to write the book.. Could you please send these to me via netmail at: mcorbin@scicom.alphacdc.com Thanks Don. Mike -- Michael Corbin - via FidoNet node 1:104/422 UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name INTERNET: Michael.Corbin@p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!think.com!spool.mu.edu!munnari.oz.au!bruce!goanna!minyos.xx.rmit.oz.au!rxxgre From: rxxgre@minyos.xx.rmit.oz.au (Geof Rey Evans) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy Subject: Re: SIGHTING REPORT 3: Australia Message-ID: <1991Aug26.040136.18497@minyos.xx.rmit.oz.au> Date: 26 Aug 91 04:01:36 GMT References: <1991Aug23.035544.17652@bilver.uucp> Organization: RMIT Computer Centre, Melbourne Australia. Lines: 25 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:1851 alt.conspiracy:6745 <<<* Sorry guys but this isn't a sighting report (bloody vi editors) ! Last night I saw a film called Hanger 18...about a UFO capture in Bannon County New Mexico. I'm not sure if it was meant to be fiction or not, the blurb at the beginning seemed to infer it was based on fact. Is this supposed to be loosly based on Roswell and Hanger 19 ? What did the Space Shuttle have to do with any of this and has an astronaut *ever* died in space ? Quite confusing really and any light you can shed on this would be appreciated very much. Hanger 18 was destroyed at the end of the movie by the CIA/USAF. Probally the most realistic part of the whole bloody movie !!! GRE. ___________________________________________________________________ || Geof Evans | DOMAIN: rxxgre@minyos.xx.rmit.oz.au || || Melbourne,Australia 3000 | Tel: +61 3 663 3663 || ||<<<*** If they *really* wanna know...tell 'em God was drunk.***>>> || ||___________________________________________________________________|| -- ___________________________________________________________________ || Geof Evans | DOMAIN: rxxgre@minyos.xx.rmit.oz.au || || Melbourne,Australia 3000 | Tel: +61 3 663 3663 || Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sdd.hp.com!spool.mu.edu!mixcom!jjwwjj From: jjwwjj@mixcom.COM (Robotic Systems) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: COLUMBIAN ALIENS AND BUSH Message-ID: <1510@mixcom.COM> Date: 26 Aug 91 14:14:27 GMT Distribution: usa Organization: Milwaukee Information eXchange (Public access Usenet, Email) Lines: 17 I heard on the news today that a famer in Columbia was abducted and had an implant placed in his shoulder. He says he has a message for President Bush. Did anyone else hear this? Does anyone know more? Also, I too have noticed more advertising which includes references to aliens and UFOs. I am skeptical, but I've got to admit, this is starting to get scary! Or, are UFOs just becoming vouge? Any info would be appreicated. Please post so all can enjoy! -- =============================================================================== Clint Laskowski Post Office Box 552, Cudahy, Wisconsin 53110-0552 ROBOTIC SYSTEMS INTERNET: robots@mixcom.com VOICE: (414) 769-9332 =============================================================================== Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!ysub!psuvm!sml108 From: SML108@psuvm.psu.edu (Scott the Great) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy Subject: Re: SIGHTING REPORT 3: Australia Message-ID: <91238.144128SML108@psuvm.psu.edu> Date: 26 Aug 91 18:41:28 GMT References: <1991Aug23.035544.17652@bilver.uucp> <1991Aug26.040136.18497@minyos.xx.rmit.oz.au> Organization: Penn State University Lines: 66 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:1853 alt.conspiracy:6747 In article <1991Aug26.040136.18497@minyos.xx.rmit.oz.au>, rxxgre@minyos.xx.rmit.oz.au (Geof Rey Evans) says: > ><<<* Sorry guys but this isn't a sighting report (bloody vi editors) ! > Last night I saw a film called Hanger 18...about a UFO capture in > Bannon County New Mexico. I'm not sure if it was meant to be > fiction or not, the blurb at the beginning seemed to infer it was > based on fact. Is this supposed to be loosly based on Roswell and Yes, Gary Collins, the former host of Hour Magazine was indeed a space shuttle astronaut who went into entertainment to avoid being killed by the men in black. Darren Mc Gavin, one of the scientists in the movie also has a degree in astrophysics. O.H. Krill was his adviser in grad school. Indeed, there have been numerous top secret shuttle missions which have shot down spacecraft, but the NSA secretly launches them from Fiji (not Phoenix), with the code name "Vula Binaka"... > Hanger 19 ? What did the Space Shuttle have to do with any of this > and has an astronaut *ever* died in space ? Quite confusing really > and any light you can shed on this would be appreciated very much. > Hanger 18 was destroyed at the end of the movie by the CIA/USAF. > Probally the most realistic part of the whole bloody movie !!! > GRE. Well, beyond the 12 shuttles shot down by the Greys in the period from 1984-1989, no. This was in retaliation for our search and destroy missions on their reconaissance craft. Well, I'll bet you're about to flame me to death, but here's the real poop, and boy do I mean POOP. Hangar 18 was a Schick Sun Classic Production. These are the boys and girls and greys who brought us such masterpieces as _The Outer Space Connection_, the source of that rumor that a radio message from Flight 19 stated "Don't come after me, they look like they're from Outer Space!", The Mysterious Bigfoot, featuring such antics as famed psychic Peter Hurkos figuring out that a briefcase brought to him by the production staff of a bigfoot movie, indeed contained something related to bigfoot, _The Late Great Planet Earth_, the source of many misinterpretations of the quatrains of Nostrodamus, even you can now count their prophesies that failed 1) No cannibalistic famine on the west coast 2) Nobody showed up with a blue turban 3) No big California Earthquake anywhere near the projected date and 4) It's 1991 and New York City is STILL standing, _The Bermuda Triangle Mystery_ which had some of the most exciting re-usage of stock footage from "Atlantis, the Lost Continent", ever seen, _In Search of Noah's Ark_, with still more exciting re-usage of footage from _The Bible_, and many other classics of postmodern cinematography... In short, if you believe anything THEY say, based on their presentation, would you like to buy some Russian Farmland? Scott > > > ___________________________________________________________________ >|| Geof Evans | DOMAIN: rxxgre@minyos.xx.rmit.oz.au || >|| Melbourne,Australia 3000 | Tel: +61 3 663 3663 || >||<<<*** If they *really* wanna know...tell 'em God was drunk.***>>> || >||___________________________________________________________________|| > > >-- > > ___________________________________________________________________ >|| Geof Evans | DOMAIN: rxxgre@minyos.xx.rmit.oz.au || >|| Melbourne,Australia 3000 | Tel: +61 3 663 3663 || Path: ns-mx!uunet!cis.ohio-state.edu!pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu!linac!att!att!fang!tarpit!bilver!dona From: dona@bilver.uucp (Don Allen) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,alt.dreams Subject: FILE: Dreams.txt - Dream or vision of things to come? Message-ID: <1991Aug26.041004.21952@bilver.uucp> Date: 26 Aug 91 04:10:04 GMT Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL Lines: 845 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:1854 alt.conspiracy:6748 alt.dreams:3772 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- This information is presented for your persusal and is a continuation of my policy of informing the public what is currently available. The content of this information does NOT necessarily reflect the personal views of the poster,nor should the views,opinions,statements or claims represented in the following be accepted by anyone reading these texts at *face* value. If this interests you, please endeavor to research it yourself and investigate it to *your* satisfaction, and as such I will leave it in your hands to either prove it or de-bunk it :-) As I do not have a great amount of time available to pursue follow-ups exclusively, comments to me should be directed to dona@bilver.uucp in mail. --------------------------------------------------------------------- INTRODUCTION: I am submitting this file after a great deal of soul-searching. I have at no time considered myself to be any different than anyone else. When the events that are recounted below occurred, I seriously considered seeking professional help. Instead, I turned within and performed my own private introspection. I discovered that I can now approach these incidents and accept them as factual and go from there. I do not expect anyone to believe or to even actually read this file. But, I feel that is necessary to at least "go-public" as part of the healing process. GROUNDWORK: I am at this writing 38 years old. I am divorced and have custody of my two teenaged sons. I am ex-Navy and work in the computer communications field. I am an amateur writer and investigative correspondent for several publications. Most specifically, I write for Firefighters. I am not one of "God's Green Berets" in terms of religion. Nor am I involved in an New Age, Wicca, or any other "alternative" belief system. I like to consider myself as just a "regular guy". At the time of the dreams, I had been separated from my wife and had just filed for divorce. I was living at 130 Foothill Court in Morgan Hill CA. This is a bedroom community located 35 miles south of San Jose CA. I was deeply involved in research on a book that I was writing on corelationships between the ZODIAC killings in the Bay area in the 70's and the Green River Killer of Seattle of the 80's. I relate all of this information in that I feel that it is necessary that I "set the stage" of exactly what was going on in my life and my preoccupations of the time. THE DREAMS BEGIN: In late May of 1989, I was poring over a large amount of data that I had recently received regarding the Green River Killer. My research assistant, Laura Xenos, and I had spent the better part of the evening cataloging the new data and correlating it to existing information. My youngest son, Danial, was staying with my sister in Seattle for the summer vacation and my oldest son Mike was visiting a girlfriend in San Jose. At about mid-night, Laura and I decided that we were both exhausted and decided to knock off for the night. I convinced Laura not to drive all the way back to San Jose and she 1 went to sleep on the couch in my den. I retired to my bedroom and went to sleep. However, like all good parents, I kinda had one eye open to insure that Mike made it home OK. At precisely 3:15am I awoke. My bed was situated in my bedroom in such a manner that when the bedroom door was open, I could see down the hallway to my sons bedrooms. When I awoke, the hall light was on and there was a person standing in door of my bedroom. As you are probably aware, when you awaken from a deep sleep, it is difficult to focus on bright lights. This being the case, I shielded my eyes from the hall light and in my best imitation of a parent trying to be hip I said " Yo dude, Isn't it a little late for you to be getting in???". The person(?) standing in the door said in a calm and quiet voice "Go to sleep, You will remember". I recall saying something to the effect of "Yeah, right" and I rolled over and went to sleep. At 5:00am I woke up, sitting up. That is to say I became aware that I was in my bedroom and that I was sitting up in bed. I had no recollection of sitting up, just that I was sitting there. Being of a hopeless parental mind, I stormed into my sons room and woke him up to chew him out for getting in at 3:00am. Mike told me he had arrived at 12:30 and watched the end of the Carson show and went to sleep. My son has never lied to me and this would not have been a circumstance that he would feel that he had to lie to protect himself (he's bigger than me). Confused, I went in and woke up Laura and asked her if she had come to my room the previous night. She said that she had been asleep on the couch all night and had not risen until I woke her up. I was duly troubled by the events of the previous evening. For the rest of the day I had a nagging feeling that there was something in my mind that was just out of reach. It is like when you are supposed to do something for someone but just can't remember exactly what it was. There was a guilty feeling that I couldn't identify. Over the course of the day I dismissed the feelings and the thoughts that had bothered me that morning. By the end of the day, I was ready to go to bed (the first occurrence happened on a Friday night). Mike had gone off and was going to spend the night at a friends house in San Jose and I was relishing the thought of having the house empty and quiet to myself. I went to bed at about 10:30 and drifted off to sleep. At this point I am not sure if both of the below described dreams occurred on the same night or if one had occurred the night before and had emerged when the second one materialized. I do know that these dreams were in vivid color. I can CLEARLY remember that point. I usually do not remember the details of my dreams. But, in this case the details are clear and the colors are extremely clean and concise. DREAM 1, IN THE COUNCIL CHAMBERS I am in a large room. It is not unlike the pictures I have seen of the United Nations General Assembly Hall. At one end is a raised 2 dais that has several people(?) seated at it. There is a lot of gold and silver in the clothing that the people around me are wearing. The floor is a fine pastel blue not quite robins egg but close. There is a heated argument taking place between a man on the floor and the people(?) on the dais. I cannot see his head or face (the man on the floor). Where his head would be is a helical light alternating white and black (like a barbers pole). it is turning counter-clockwise. That is if you were facing him, the helix was turning from my right to left. It had the appearance of "screwing" down into his shoulders. He is wearing a "toga" that is iridescent blue/black and flashes when he moves his arms. I cannot see his hands as the arms of the toga cover them. I am suddenly aware of a presence to my left. I cannot see who it is. A quiet voice is talking to me. I am being told that the little man in the silvery blue/black robe is "Lucifer", ambassador from the Satanas Federation. He is declaring the rights of the Satanas to do what the please. The Council is advising him that the "experiments" must end. If the Satanas Federation does not obey the "Doctrine" then there will be war. At this point I remember straining to hear what the voices. There were no voices. It was more a lot of high pitched whines and growls. It sounded a lot like a beginning violin player combined with a beginning clarinet player. When I asked what the "doctrine" was, my off-stage dis-embodied voice told me that it was that no one could interfere with another culture. Fade to black....... DREAM 2, The 21 I am in a place without definition. there is a pinkish blur around me. It can be likened to what a movie-maker would use to have a dream-sequence in a movie. In front of me is a group of people. I count 21 people standing in a "triangular" or a delta grouping in front of me. At the point or apex facing me is a smallish woman about 5 feet tall. She has black hair (raven black) it is straight and severely cut straight and even with her shoulders. She has a pale white complexion. Her eyes are striking. They are crystal clear and the bluest blue that I have ever seen. They are almost luminescent. Her lips are vivid red. I am sure that there is no make-up on her face. Around her are the other 20 people. They are all dressed in pale blue robes bound at the waist with a white rope or cord. I cannot see their feet. From my left, a voice tells me "This is your people" "You are the protector". I remember saying "Yeah, right, I am a protector, I am overweight, wear glasses and can barely defend myself". The voice didn't miss a beat, "You will be changed". I can remember being both confused and curious. I asked the voice " What am I supposed to do?, Who are these people?, Where are we to go? (I just knew we were going to go somewhere)" The voice replied "You will meet them when it is time, You will be the protector, You will go over the river, past the mountain to the valley" 3 I was getting a little agitated at this point. "Am I supposed to lead these people like Moses or something?" The voice answered that "She is the leader, you are the protector". "to show that you are a protector, we are placing the mark of the protector on your vibronic (sic?) aura to show others that you are a protector". At this point I am suddenly holding a white ceramic molding that looks kind of like a heart with one side gone. Not a human heart mind you, but a "romantic" heart. The voice says "This is the mark of the protector". "You will know from your memories when it is time to go" Again I was confused "What memories?" The voice then told me about Bio-Chemical memories that are implanted in the DNA structure of the receiver and can be activated at will. I didn't understand what he was telling me and I really cant even begin to recount it but I knew that I didn't understand it and that try as I might to absorb what he was saying I couldn't grasp it all. There was a great deal about Cerebrum synapses and the bio-chemical programming being superior to crystal implants. I am not a doctor or a clinical type so it didn't mean a great deal to me. I remember the dream most vividly, but the clinical details of this portion of the "conversation" remain just out of reach so to speak in my mind. Fade to black..... THE NEXT DAY, AND A VISIT TO THE SUPERNATURAL. When I awoke on Sunday Morning, I was disturbed. I had full and complete remembrance of these dreams at this point. Not only did I remember each detail most fully, the dreams had been in color. I could not ever remember ever having a dream in color. The face of the black haired woman was vivid in my mind. I thought about the dreams all day. I worked on my manuscript through most of the day. When I went to bed Sunday evening, I was still thinking about her. That night I had the same dream(s) again. Now I don't know if it was induced by me re-living the experience in my mind of my own volition or if there was an outside influence. Regardless, I had the dreams again. I continued to have the dreams for several nights. I was getting paranoid and scared. By Friday, I was afraid to go to sleep. I had been awake for about 36 hours. At this time I had been "dating" a woman who was active in the more esoteric aspects of new age. I was aware of her beliefs but we never talked about it. I told her that I was not going out Friday night with her, and I told her that I was disturbed by some dreams that I kept having. At this point, I had told NO-ONE about these dreams. I was afraid that people would think that I had gone "around the bend". Linda convinced me to talk to an acquaintance of hers that was a "channeler". I had no bloody idea what a "channeler" was or what the did. I agreed to see the channeler. That night I visited a woman named Amaya. I was nervous about all of it partially because I was exhausted and partially I didn't know what to expect. Amaya was an older woman. she was smallish and very delicate looking. She had a soft quiet voice and was extremely polite. She offered me a cup of herb tea and told me to relax. I told her that I had been having 4 some dreams that were disturbing me and that Linda had said that maybe she could help. At this point she looked extremely uncomfortable and asked if she could invite another person to join us. I didn't know what to think. I said sure, no problem. I was uneasy though. I didn't know if this was satanic or if we going to cut a calf or what. In a few minutes a man named Roger came to the house. Amaya then explained that she had invited Roger over because while she was talking to me she was being overtaken by a powerful force, more powerful than anything that she has ever encountered and she wanted Roger to be there in case he was needed. Amaya told me that there was someone who wanted to talk to me most emphatically, she said that it was as if her body were being wholly attacked by sandpaper. She said all of her nerve endings were being stimulated. She looked frightened. Roger asked if she wanted to go through with it. She said she didn't know. At this point, I didn't know what to think. I felt that I could be in the middle of a con job or a gypsy scam or whatever. Again it is important for me to relate that I had still not told ANYONE about the content of the dreams. Roger got a tape recorder and set it up and told me that I could have a record of the events. I was becoming convinced that it was a con-job. Then the most incredible thing that I have ever witnessed took place. Amaya was sitting across the table from me in her kitchen, the tape recorder was on the table between us. Roger was sitting to my left. All of Amayas facial features began to change. I don't mean that she distorted her face, I mean they CHANGED!. Her long thin face changed to a more round face, her cheeks puffed out as if she had suddenly gained 20 pounds. Her complexion darkened almost to that of a Latino or Arab. Her eyes took on a almond shape and drew back not quite into an oriental look. When she opened her eyes, they were no longer blue, they were black! That is there was no color just two black holes in the white. When she spoke, gone was the soft quiet voice. What came out was a loud booming voice. It had a distinct accent that was kind of like a Jamaican but more Spanish. What follows is a direct transcript of the tape that was made: You are indeed a protector. You were chosen many lifetimes ago You have been trained for this duty throughout your lifetimes You volunteered for this. You will be changed for this duty. You have been given memories that will be activated when you need them. We have done this because your technical-analytical mind will question these memories and you will not accept them. You can quit this duty whenever you decide. You have a free-will Your Vibronic (sic?) aura bears your mark (ROGER> "Let me see if I can detect it" --Roger begins to run his hands around me not unlike a mime doing a 'wall' routine. (ROGER> "There is something here" 5 It is as I have told you, you bear the mark of the protector. (ROGER> "Here is what is there" --Roger hands me a piece of paper that has a pencil drawing that is EXACTLY the same as the white ceramic molding that I had held in the dream. The girl is the leader. You are the protector. The dreams are real. You do not have to fear them. They will end tonight. There will be more dreams when you need them. Do you wish to be a protector? (ME> "Yes" Do you have any questions? (ME> "Yes, Many of them" You may ask. (ME> "Are there more than the people I saw?" There are other groups. Each 21 has its own protector. This 21 is for you. (ME> "The girl with the black hair is the leader?" She is the leader but she does not lead the way that you are thinking. She will be an example for the others. They will follow out of their own free-will. (ME> "How do I find them?" When it is time, They will find you. They will know you by your mark. You will know them by the mark. (ME> "What mark do they have?" When it is time, you will know. (ME> "Why is this happening now?" You are being awakened to allow time for you to be prepared for the duty. Other protectors are being awakened now to prepare them. The time is approaching for you to begin your duty. When the world declares war on the South, it is time. (ME> "What does that mean?" You will understand in time. (ME> "Who are they?" They are the minds and the experiences of your race. (ME> "What about my family?" There will be more than just the 21. You will have many people in your care. The 21 are the core. You are the protector. (ME> "Does that mean that my family, my sons, will be with me?" Yes. (ME> "Are you from the future?" The future is like a river. It goes in a direction. There is no way of telling if there are eddies and backcurrents. If you place a piece of wood in the water and track its movements, then place a second piece of wood in the same spot in the water, the current will never take the same route. To ask if I am from the 6 future cannot be answered in a way that you will understand. Leave it be said that I am from A future. (ME> "When you say that I was trained many lifetimes ago what do you mean?" You were a warrior. You fought many battles. You died many times. You volunteered when you were what you call a Comanchero. (ME> "What is that?" Your people call them Indians. They were the last pure spirits of your race. We spoke to them. We were what they called the Bird Tribes. --There is a period of quiet Do you have any other questions? (ME> "I know there are but I can't think of any." There is a malevolence, an evil as your race perceives it. It is dominating your plane. We cannot interfere. You must defend yourselves. We go now. --end of tape. NOTE--The above is a direct transcription from the tape that was made during the session. This has been validated by three separate persons. Amaya at this point seemed to deflate. Her face changed back to its original configuration. She was panting and covered with sweat. I was both relieved and quite scared. I didn't know what to think. After she had recovered, Amaya asked if she could listen to the tape. I asked her if she didn't remember what was said. She said that she had been in a "pink place" while we had spoken. She asked me the name of who I had talked to. I had not asked. She said that she didn't know who it was wither, but, she said that it was the most powerful experience that she had ever had. I asked her if I owed her anything. She said that she usually asked for $75.00 for the services. (This immediately fortified my belief that this was a scam) She said that she couldn't accept anything this time. I tried to force the money on her. (I think that I was trying to justify my own beliefs that this was a scam). As I was leaving, I left $50.00 in a candy dish by her door. I felt better for it. I went out to my car and took off for home. I got about 3 miles from home and reached into my shirt pocket for my gas credit card, I came out with the 2 twenties and the ten that I "thought" that I had left in the candy dish. (Scary thoughts went through my head). That night I slept the sleep of the wicked. I had no dreams and woke up Saturday morning feeling refreshed and better than I have felt in years. 7 DREAM 3, THE CHURCH OF DISBELIEF There were no dreams for several months. My son Mike helped his girlfriends family to move up to Spokane in Washington state and decided to spend the summer up there. Laura and I continued to research my book material and my relationship with Linda wilted and faded away. I was planning to take my vacation and take a camping trip up to Spokane and pick up my son Mike, and swing over to Seattle see my son Danial (he had asked if he could go to school in Seattle). Laura was going to tag along to keep me company (strictly a platonic relationship). During the course of the trip, We had stopped for the night at a campground just outside of The Dalles in Oregon. I had hooked up my trailer and was making a campfire. I stoked the fire and was watching it. I became aware of Laura asking me if I was OK. I remember looking at my watch and seeing that it was only 7:00pm saying that was ok and that I was going to sit by the fire for a while. Then Laura seemed to be shaking me asking me if I was ok. I said that I had "just told her that I was fine" She said that that had been almost 5 hours ago. I looked at the fire. It had gone out and was cinders. I was perplexed. I had just been looking at it. Hell, I had just started it. I looked at my watch. it said that it was about 7:15pm. Laura showed me her watch. It said that it was well past midnight. My watch was running and didn't appear to have any damage. I was a bit confused. I was very tired. We went into the trailer and I went to bed. That night I had another dream. I was in the air. Flying I guess. I was looking down on an area of trees and green grass. There was a river that snaked through the area. There was a community of houses nestled in a crook in the river. Amongst the houses was a small white clapboard building. I swooped down, circling the white building. As I approached a ground level, I could see the steeple. It was a church. It resembled the caricature of the country church. I circled the building and suddenly I was standing in the grass behind the building. It was a warm evening. The sky was just darkening. I could smell the newly mown lawn as I approached the rear of the building. There was a door standing open. I went into the building. I seemed to have entered the church from behind the pulpit. Standing at the pulpit was a rather overweight man that was emphatically trying to make some point. I couldn't hear what was being said. There was the same screeching that had been present when I had been in the council chambers in the other dreams. I looked at the congregation. There were looks of shock and disbelief on their faces. Sitting among the congregation, there were several people(?) that had the same helix in place of their head. When I saw them I suddenly felt enraged. Each of them rose and quickly left the building. I rushed out after them. When I got outside, they were gone. The Voice was suddenly in my ear (off to the left again), "They are everywhere" I was informed. "They discredit those who suspect the truth" I turned and went back into the church. The overweight man was still at the pulpit, the congregation still in shock. It was as if my dash through the church had not even been noticed. I was confused. 8 fade to black..... DREAM 4, THE BREEDING TEMPLE The remainder of the trip was uneventful. We went to Spokane, picked up Mike and went to Seattle. My son Danial was staying with my sister. When we all descended upon my sisters house, it was a little crowded. I opted to sleep on a rollaway bed in the rec-room (converted garage). The first night there, I decided to walk down to the local 7-11 about three blocks away for some milk. You can see the store from my sisters front door. I had what I felt was an uneventful walk to the store, I bought the milk and returned home. When I walked in the door, my sister jumped up off the couch and demanded to know where I had been. My sons came rushing out of the bedrooms and before I knew it there was everyone asking me if I was ok. I continued to tell them that I had just went to the store. I was then told that I had been gone for several hours and that my sister had called the police and listed me as missing. The 7-11 clerk had told the police that I had been there and bought the milk and had left. When I checked the milk that I had purchased, it was still cold, as if it had just been removed from the cooler. That night I had another dream. I was standing on a hill. There were evergreen trees all about me. I was at the edge of a clearing that went down one side of the hill. The clearing was green and grassy. Sitting at the foot of the hill was a building. It was a stone (granite?) building that had columns in the front not unlike the Lincoln Memorial in Washington DC. I have no remembrance of coming down the hill but I am suddenly standing in front of the building. I go into the building and in the anteroom there are trappings (tapestries) on the walls. They are black and there are gold foil ideograms (characters) on them. It is reminiscent of oriental writing but with a more Aztec look to it. (I don't know why I thought that it was Aztec, I wouldn't know Aztec if it bit me) I pass through the anteroom and enter a room that has a "tank" in it. When I say tank, I mean that it was like there was a pool with the sides made of glass. You could see into the tank and the liquid hat was in the tank was a pale blue in color. It was not unlike blue milk in consistency. As I enter the room I can see a woman in the liquid at one end of the tank. The tank appears to be about 6 feet wide, 8-10 feet long and about 2 feet deep. The woman is middle aged (40's ?), short blonde hair. She has a "sprinkling" of freckles on her face and chest (she is nude) She gives the appearance of being very complacent and pleased. Her eyes are closed. She bears a striking resemblance to Barbara Bel-Gedes (of Dallas fame) but younger. She is sitting in the blue liquid up to her chest. I can see her breasts . The Voice is there with me. He tells me that she is part of the "breeding stock". There is motion at the other end of the tank. I turn and I can see a "child" suspended (seemingly) just off the surface of the liquid. The child is about 8-10 years old. He seems to "float" towards the woman. As he passes in front of me I can see his penis. It is long and thin and I am reminded of a knife blade. As he approaches, she raises her 9 legs and he mounts her and they copulate. The Voice tells me that he (the child) is one of her offspring and that this breeding is necessary to "strengthen the strain". The Voice tells me that once impregnated, she will be kept in the liquid as it is a "stasis" solution that accelerates fetal growth. In the third month, the fetus will be removed and she will once again be impregnated. The fetus is placed in another "growth" tank and the stasis solution will allow for rapid development. When the fetus(?) has developed to what can be likened to a 8-10 year physical development, they are "born" out of the stasis solution. At this point their brain is empty. there is no personality development no maternal bond. Call it what you like. They (the fetus) is like a PC sitting there with no programming other than the DOS. the body functions are there, but they have no drive, no purpose. The Voice tells me that these humans(?) are the Drones. They are just slaves to perform tasks at the discretion of the malevolence.(Note-the Voice never identified the others as anything more than the Satanas or the malevolence). When I ask if the woman is there of her own will, The Voice tells me that she is one that had been "taken" and there are hundreds and hundreds of others that have been "taken" for breeding stock. The Voice told me that occasionally the malevolence enhanced the strain by introducing an "outside fetus". These are usually removed from the maternal unit (his words not mine) between the third and sixth month of gestation. They are then placed in the stasis and developed and introduced as breeders. Fade to Black.... DREAM 5, BACK AT THE TEMPLE I can remember awakening and feeling quite confused and disturbed by what I had seen. The day was totally uneventful, that next night, I had the same dream. This time when I entered the "temple" I am slightly off to one side of the tank. There is a different woman in the tank. This time it is a younger woman very slight of build with long red hair that hung down and was in the blue liquid. I was struck by the length of her hair. The scene was the same as the previous night, except that in this position I now saw something that I didn't see the previous visit. This time I could see that standing in the liquid, wearing a "robe" that was the exact same color as the liquid there were small people(?). There were one on each side of the woman. They were holding her at her shoulders and legs. As the "child approached, I could now see that he was being held by two of the same beings(?). The Voice informed me that the breeding temples were run by Drones. The malevolence only occasionally visited or showed up. I felt the rage building inside of me again similar to that which I had experienced at the small white church. Fade to black...... DREAM 6, WAR I returned to my home in Morgan Hill. There was no unusual events 10 for several weeks. Then one night the last dream occurred. I am in the middle of a pitched battle. I appear to be in a bombed out building or structure of some kind. I am with a small blonde man. He has bright blue eyes. He is handing me a silver metallic cylinder about two feet long and about 5-6 inches in diameter. It is heavy. At one end there is a red lens like a magnifying glass. The other end is sealed and is silver and metallic. On the side of it is a small hole that goes into the cylinder at an angle. He hands the cylinder to me. He then shows me how to hold it. My thumb goes in the hole and my fingers wrap around the cylinder. I hold it under my arm against my side like a football. My left hand supports the cylinder under the front near the lens. He explains that it is an ionic projector. It is a weapon that is used in the war. He tells me that it is used to disrupt the nervous system of the enemy. All about us there are explosions and flashes of light. He turns and picks up another cylinder and pokes out through an opening in the wall there is a hum as the cylinder projects what looks like red light. It is not like a laser, it is more like a searchlight. I see the "enemy". It is a lizard like creature. It is about 8 to 10 feet tall. Very thin and bony. It is moving slowly and deliberately. I point my "weapon". I don't know how to fire it. "Push with your thumb" the blonde says. I do so. The red light flashes on my target. It crumples to the ground. I can now see its weapon. It looks like a Viking sword about 4 feet long. There appears to be a handle at right angles to the blade about halfway down the blade. There is an enormous flash of bright blue light. I turn to look at the blonde man. There is just a pile of black ash where he had been. Suddenly The Voice is there. He is telling me to go.. I don't know where to go. I am confused. I am angry. Where is the blonde man? I am suddenly in a pink place not unlike that of DREAM 2. there is a silver metal table in front of me. Laying on the table is a small figure. It has a large head and enormous almond shaped eyes. There are no ears and two holes where a nose should be. The mouth has no lips. it is slightly open forming a oval in the lower part of the head. The neck is extremely thin and does not look like it would have the strength to support the massive head. The Voice is telling me that this is the enemy that I will have to fight(?). He tells me to turn it over. I reach out and push the body onto its side. It is cold and rather damp. It feels like a lizard, leathery and soft. I am looking at the back of the head. There is a hole (oblong) at the base of the neck where it meets the head. The Voice tells me that the creatures have two brains. Anterior and Posterior. (I have since learned that this means front and rear), The creatures use the brains simultaneously. Because of this, it is almost impossible to kill the creatures. If shot, unless shot in both the front and rear of the head, the creature continues to live. One of the brains is dead, but the other continues to carry on. If one of the brains dies, the "power" is now diminished but not terminated. I asked The Voice what the "power" was. He told me that these creatures (I have since learned that these are what are called GREYS) have a telepathic 11 capability. this is limited however. They have to be very close to you to telepathically link. They have learned to overcome this by implanting a "crystal" on the optic nerve of humans (its about 2-4 microns in diameter). This crystal is "tuned" to the frequency of the "intruder". It seems that each of the GREYS has a unique mental frequency that allows mental privacy. If they want to communicate, they "switch" to a mental frequency that is for communicating. The "hosts" (humans) are not on that frequency. The crystal implants allow the "intruders" to attach to the mental processes of the "host". For the PC literate in the reading audience, it is like using a PC Anywhere or Carbon Copy software. The remote suddenly has full and complete control over the host. The Voice informed me that there are many "controllers" among the GREYS. Each "controller" has 20 to 30 "hosts" that he maintains. The crystal also enhances the range of the telepathic "power". While without the crystal, there is a certain amount of telepathic communicative ability at an extremely limited distance, the crystal allows for the "control" of the host from a distance that can be several miles away. Thus a "pod" of GREYS can summon up an army of 100 to 200 humans and direct them to do what ever they want. (The Voice told me that the malevolence (GREYS) operate in groups they call "PODS" of 8 to 10 with one being the leader). Killing off the human "hosts" does little to diminish the threat. The "controller" has to be taken out. This is what The Voice was trying to show me. The Voice told me that there have been many cases of a malevolence being shot by a human. But, because of the bony plate that divided the brain cavities, the posterior brain continued to function. This bony plate is what we would call bullet-proof. In many cases the human was given the impression that the shot had no effect. A shot to the body had little to no effect. The Voice told me that when "in the field" the malevolence wore a suit that was made up of a material that had a molecular density 100 times what is common on our planet. A bullet would not penetrate the material. The Voice told me that other then shooting them in the head frontal and rear, The only other approach was a penetration at the rear of the head where the neck meets the head. A straight penetration for 3 to 5 inches will sever the cerebral cortex. It seems that the two brains communicate with each other via a "wire" (nerve bundle) that passes through the bony plate. The Voice stated that a knife blade or a gunshot (dicey but possible) would immediately "kill" it if it was hit in this area. I asked how this one had been killed. The Voice told me that he had been killed "in the war" and was here to show "protectors" what to do. I told The Voice that I didn't think that I could kill anything. The Voice said that I would when it was necessary. For the first time, I asked The Voice who he was. He told me that he was a "teacher" and could not tell me any more than that. I felt satisfied with that answer (although I don't know why). I was warm all over. Fade to black.... POSTSCRIPT 12 That was the last dream that I have had to date. Several things have occurred that are almost miraculous in nature from that time. Without apparent effort, I have lost about 65 lbs. I received a job offer that relocated me from CA to WA. Much in my life has settled and I am content. I have related the events listed above as part of something that I feel the need to do. I really don't care if you believe me or not. I am not a prophet of doom or, like some others, trying to line my pockets by pretending to be some kind of authority. I am just a guy that seems to have been thrust into an unusual circumstance. Ignore it? no chance. I am sure that I have had these dreams. Whether they reflect reality or not remains to be seen. At this point I merely know what I know. I have come to accept what has occurred and am continuing my life. I refuse to go to the mat and try to convince anyone that what has occurred is real. If you chose to not believe it, so be it. If you choose to believe that what I have related is true, so be it. I know that it occurred. Since that time I have done a lot of reading and learning about the UFO community and the promoters and the nay-sayers. I am certain that I will be de-bunked and called a phony and all the rest. Confidentially, I don't give a ragged rats ass. I know what I know. Hasta La Bye-Bye Randy Terpstra EOF ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don -- -* Don Allen *- InterNet: dona@bilver.UUCP // Amiga..for the best of us. USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-) UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!vicstoy!dona KING George Bush?? Just say NO! UFO's in commercials....is the GOVT getting us ready for OCTOBER of 1992? Path: ns-mx!uunet!cis.ohio-state.edu!pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu!linac!att!att!fang!tarpit!bilver!dona From: dona@bilver.uucp (Don Allen) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy Subject: MUFON: The Investigators Edge Handbook Message-ID: <1991Aug26.041807.22041@bilver.uucp> Date: 26 Aug 91 04:18:07 GMT Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL Lines: 1015 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:1855 alt.conspiracy:6749 I thought it might be interesting to post this here and let you see what kind of attention to detail is paid in investigating UFO's. This comes from the MUFON handbook called "The Investigator's Edge".. If I can get ahold of other UFO organizations procedures that would be allowed to the general public, I'll post them as well. This file, is a *compilation* of several files dealing with the same subject. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- MUFONET-BBS Network - Mutual UFO Network ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ THE INVESTIGATOR'S EDGE SERIES ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ The Investigator's Edge series of instructional and informative files, compiled primarily for the MUFON Field Investigator, originally started out as information from Dan Wright's newsletters to State Directors, but has since included exceptional information for a number of newsletters currently being published by various State and Assistant State Directors from all over the country. Each IEDGE*.TXT file is from a newsletter submitted to the MUFONET-BBS Network by the author, or from a MUFON Member who has experience/training in a certain specialized area of scientific or humanitarian endeavor. Each file in the series is pertinent, informative and educational and is to be used as a tool by the Field Investigator to assist him/her in her field work of investigating UFO and UFO-related cases. If you feel you can contribute a bit of informative information of use for the above purpose, please either upload the file to a MUFONET-BBS Network member board, or send via U.S. Snailmail to: John Komar Administrator - MUFONET-BBS Network State Director/Tennessee - MUFON 4769 Lake Ridge Drive Memphis, Tennessee 38109 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From Dan Wright's Mufon Newsletter Dan Wright Deputy Director, Investigations 228 S. Fairview Lansing, MI 48912 August 28, 1989 THE INVESTIGATOR'S EDGE Witness integrity is a critical area to be covered in the investigator's report, yet it is often the most difficult area to assess. Few of us have much formal education in psychology, and even that type of training might be insufficient in certain cases. Much has been said and written about hoaxed claims, which nearly always entail a dramatic close encounter story wherein the teller was the intended subject of the intruder. Other indicators to look for include: (a) precise details expressed with confidence regarding measurements, vehicle design and so forth, (b) if multiple witnesses, total agreement on all aspects of the original account, (c) instant answers to questions posed, (d) the conveyance of a message or indication of purpose by the alien intelligence, and (e) a desire for publicity by the reporting person. Some accounts are genuine despite these appearances, but they do serve as caution lights. Exaggeration and embellishment are not the same and both must be considered. The former overstates a descriptive element - proximity, size, brightness, velocity and the like - that would normally be perceived in an event of that type. If an object seen at dusk in a populated area is estimated to have been thousands of feet in the air yet a foot in diameter at arm's length, one would suspect an exaggerated apparent size. [Otherwise, police phone lines would have been jammed followed by headlines in the morning news.] Embellishment, by contrast, adds elements or details thereof that were not part of the actual observation. This might become evident when comparing original statements made immediately after the incident (to police, the investigator or someone else) with a later re-telling. For example, the object was lost from view below the tree-line and (the witness later deduces) landed. Perhaps a faint glow within the woods is added in the re-telling as well. Taking leave of the facts in either of these fashions might be quite unintentional on the part of a person who both wants to impress you, "the expert", in such matters. Thus, when questioned (s)he tends to fill in any gaps in what was truly heard and seen. Still, if repeated at various points of the account, the entire event may be called into question. A "true believer" is readily identifiable by a large crystal adorning his/her necklace, the flying saucer belt buckle, and the autographed copy of Shirley MacLaine over the mantle. Seriously, this type of individual tends to have just enough knowledge of the UFO subject to be half convincing on the surface. Certainly, randomness being a factor in the sighting annals, one of these "Children of the New Age" or just plain UFOnut may have had a real experience. However, as the sign reads on those windy mountain passes, proceed with extreme caution. If a bookcase is in view, a quick scan of its contents is always in order and may be very illuminating. In the recounting, these persons often tend to digress into a series of previous nocturnal light sightings (which sound suspiciously similar to airplanes, satellites and planets) and to offer firm opinions on the origins, purposes and/or lessons of alien visitation. For, at the heart of the true-believer mentality is a fervent desire to be in contact with mysterious forces - of the UFO variety or otherwise. By itself, this is harmless. But, being a prisoner of one's passions, IFOs are easily transformed into UFOs, and a genuine observation can trigger a delusion of meaningful communication. Lest we succumb to the temptation of seeing an abduction behind every bush, it bears reminding that there are still lots of gullible folks out there with active imaginations and a need to be part of the action. Attached is a "Survey of UFO/Metaphysical Interests," a list of questions which you and your members may find useful in sorting through matters of witness integrity. It is intended for use in those iffy cases, although the first five are suitable for general audiences. Also, investigators should be cautioned not to raise such questions until all other relevant information has been discussed. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- SURVEY OF UFO / METAPHYSICAL INTERESTS Date _____________________ Witness _________________________________ _____________________________________________________________________________ 1) What books have you read on the UFO subject? ____________________________ ________________________________________________________________________. 2) Are you familiar with: Whitley Strieber? ____. Budd Hopkins? ____. Project Bluebook? ____. MJ-12? ____. 3) Have you found that tabloids (Enquirer, etc.) offer information on UFO incidents that you can't get elsewhere? ____. Do you have a favorite tabloid? ____. __________________________________________________________. 4) Where do UFO's come from? _______________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________. 5) Have you reached a conclusion as to why they are here? __________________ ________________________________________________________________________. 6) Are particular kinds of people selected for UFO encounters? _____________ ________________________________________________________________________. 7) Do you think psychic people have a better chance of seeing a UFO than others? ____. 8) Would an astrologer be able to predict the likelihood of a UFO encounter for a client? ____. 9) Do you feel you were destined to have an UFO experience? ____. Why? _____ _________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________. 10) How can UFO's go so fast? ______________________________________________. How can they just vanish into thin air? ________________________________. 11) Do you have an impression of what an alien looks like? __________________ ________________________________________________________________________. 12) Did you see the movie: "E.T." ____. "Coccoon" ____. "Starman" ____. "Close Encounters of the Third Kind" ____. Do you feel these portray what aliens are really like? _________________. 13) Do you suspect that aliens live their lives much like we do? ___________. 14) Is it fair to assume that alien visitors mean us no harm? ______________. Why do you feel that way? _______________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________. 15) If you could select a friend right now to be in the same circumstance, would you want him or her to experience what you did? ____. Why? _______ ________________________________________________________________________. 16) Have you ever tried a past-life regression? ____. What did you find out? _________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________. 17) Have you attended a "channeling" session? ____. Were you impressed? _____ ________________________________________________________________________. 18) Have you ever had an episode of being outside your body? ____. What hap- pened then? ______________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________. 19) Is there a particular color that has a special meaning for you? ____. Why ________________________________________________________________________. 20) Have you ever had "Tarot" cards read for you? ____. Did they turn out to be accurate? ____________________________________________________________. 21) Has anyone ever done "automatic writing" for you? ____. What did you learn? __________________________________________________________________. 22) What happens after this life is over? ___________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________. MISC. _______________________________________________________________________ _____________________________________________________________________________ _____________________________________________________________________________ _____________________________________________________________________________ INVESTIGATOR ________________________________________________________________ THE INVESTIGATOR EDGE from the 1-2-90 issue of Dan Wright's newsletter In a recent case occurring in Florida (related below), two men standing long a road were distracted by the sudden, excited barking of numerous dogs. They then noticed bright aerial lights approaching and observed a large anomalous vehicle. On a windy night in March 1980, two women and their eight children watched as a 12 - 15 - foot object of undefined shape within a glowing aura approached and remained some 50 feet from their door, performing feats and color changes over a 2-hour period. At various points, each of three dogs was let outside, yet none appeared to notice the intruder. As noted by Allan Hendry "The UFO Handbook" (Doubleday, 1979), animals do not share the technological fantasies and anticipations of humans. Pets such as dogs and cats, moreover, possess more acute senses, most notably hearing, and can detect emanations which we cannot. [Whether an animal can detect microwaves, low-strength magnetic fields or minute static charges is not known.] Consequently, if an animal reacts during the reported observation, it is inferred that *something* was there to be sensed. The expectation that animal reactions are linked closely with UFOs is a preconception in the consciousness of the American public. To state the obvious, animals can't speak for themselves, so the interpretation of their actions is left to the human witness. Cats have been reported to arch their back, hair standing on end, at the sight of a strange airborne vehicle. Of course, the sight of a strange cat would have caused the same result. UFOs have long been linked to dogs howling, barking, or cowering. Dogs likewise howl at the moon and bark at just about anything, including the barking of other dogs. Some dogs cower whenever an adult looks at them. You should also keep in mind that pets are often closely attuned to - and influenced by - the moods of their masters. Thus, if a person is acting excitedly or fearfully at the perception of a UFO, the animals in his/her presence may well exhibit a strong response also. Hendry concludes this chapter of his excellent book with an observation: "Clearly, while animals have different motives for response to UFO and IFO stimuli than humans, the range is just as complex and baffling to sort out." We do seek to compile all the evidence available on animal reactions to genuine UFOs. When milk or egg production drops afterward, when an animal is injured or when its behavior is described as totally out of character, something physical seemingly caused it. Animal reactions will be included in our computerized records, sorting both by species and type of reaction. In Chapter VIII of the MUFON "Field Investigator's Manual", Ray Fowler reminds us that a Form 4 should be completed (and mention of the reaction included in the "Personal Account" section of the Form 1) for all anecdotal evidence. If the animal displays symptoms of residual radiation, a Form 10 should be completed and a radiological examination conducted as part of the treatment administered. Where physical evidence is apparent (e.g. an injury or significant loss of fur or feathers, the animal should be photographed and a Form 6 filled out.) A final point: The investigator should never ask a witness whether animals were present. This is a leading question and only encourages the witness to speculate on behavior that may not have been otherwise regarded as extraordinary. Reactions (or a lack of reaction) regarded as unusual at the time will in all likelihood be volunteered by the witness. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Mutual UFO Network Newsletter 103 Oldtowne Road Dan Wright Seguin, Texas 78155 Deputy Director, Investigations November 1, 1989 THE INVESTIGATOR'S EDGE The witness has just concluded his account of a dramatic, prolonged close encounter with an object of unusual shape, including exterior trappings. You ask that he spend a few minutes in sketching the vehicle's design. After a bit, he produces a two-dimensional, asymmetrical scrawl and says sheepishly, "Never could draw." The woman has described two identical entities in her bedroom that she was permitted to inspect in a conscious awareness for long minutes. Asked to reduce to paper what they looked like, she prepares with some care a drawing that is nevertheless remindful of a 4-year-old's rendering of Daddy. Sound familiar? Conquering such a problem is really not at all mysterious, as every major police department long ago discovered: An artist is brought in to work with the witness to reconstruct the villain's appearance. For the limited purpose of devising an accurate rendering of a craft or entity, the facilitator need not be either a professional artist nor have formal MUFON membership (though the latter is certainly preferred). At least some several million people have a marked ability in this area and have taken some classes. Frankly, given the horrible drawings that so typically accompany case reports, anyone with an acumen for drawing would be appreciated and should be utilized. The reality in our business - and in the art world generally - is that vehicles and portraits involve fundamentally different skills. So, consider the idea of having two persons available to press into duty. In that CE-1s are far more commonly reported than CE-3s or CE-4s, a person with *mechanical drawing* skill will likely be valuable more often. For the occasional entity case, someone who has had an art class in human anatomy would be the wiser selection. Certainly, someone who has both types of abilities is ideal. A few considerations in utilizing an artist: First, of course, the person must realize that, in agreeing to offer this assistance, (s)he may be called upon with no forewarning - even raised from his/her bed on occasion. Second, the drawing is to be a faithful rendering of what the witness describes, i.e. without artistic license. [Certainly, questions of the witness along the way are both appropriate and necessary.] And third, when the drawing is completed to the client's satisfaction, it should be *signed and dated* by both the client and artist. Naturally, the investigator must clarify in the case report that the drawing was made with the assistance of the person named. For the sake of objectivity, the witness should be asked to attempt a drawing without assistance before the expert is brought to bear, and that drawing, no matter how crude, should accompany the report. It cannot be overemphasized that we as an organization fail to make critical ties among UFO events occurring at different times and locations because of a lack of adequate drawing skills at the ready. Every college and most high schools in America have at least one instructor and several students able to fill this critical need. Please make a concerted effort to find one or more to assist yourself - and encourage your members to locate additional volunteer artists in their own locales. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Dan Wright's Newsletter March 21, 1989 Deputy Director, Investigations Mutual UFO Network INVESTIGATOR'S EDGE Following a prolonged encounter with a glowing bell-shaped object on her property, a woman rather suddenly began having precognitive thoughts and dreams. Unfamiliar names popped into her mind, only to be used later in the day by family members. She proceeded to the phone seconds before it began ringing, knowing who was calling. In a vivid dream, someone she knew was dying in a house fire, a fact borne out by the next day's newspaper. Soon after a lengthy encounter on their farm with small triangular-based vehicles, a couple and their best friend (who also witnessed the event) gathered one evening and shared a sense of dread that, for whatever reason, they would not be getting together again. The next evening, the husband was killed in an auto accident. These two incidents are not taken from the Time-Life book series we've all seen advertised on TV, but rather are from my personal case files. Though we cannot begin to adequately explain such occurrences, in some extended close- encounters situations, one or more of the witnesses are left with some form of ESP. This aspect of UFO experiences has, unfortunately, been rather neglected by the investigative community and probably underreported. In that a long, involved UFO encounter is likely to take multiple interviews and weeks or months to sort out, an ESP/psychic awareness may manifest itself if the investigator has the foresight to look for evidence of same. After the basic facts of the aerial event have been gathered and one is satisfied that the claim is genuine, it is proper to ask (without mentioning anything specific) that the witness record any feelings or unusual experiences considered out of place. If something does present itself in the encounter's aftermath, the witness is likely to ask those questions so common to CE episodes generally: "Why me?" and "What does it mean?" If there is no indication that the paranormal recountings are delusive, the investigator must: (1) be honest in explaining our fundamental ignorance of the basis for these effects, (2) refrain from speculating on what might happen as a result, (3) assure the person that, it most recorded cases, any paranormal effects dissipate over time, and (4) for lack of precise knowledge as to why, try to counsel the person to accept it as an inadvertent gift left behind. Perhaps most importantly, ensure an open line of communication after the investigation is finished. Without any data to support the contention, witnesses with this sort of potential would appear ideally suited for repeat encounters at some future date. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Mutual UFO Network Dan Wright's Newsletter June 5, 1989 THE INVESTIGATOR'S EDGE Anyone who has hung around the subject for awhile is bound to hear those familiar words and phrases which ought to raise an eyebrow of doubt: "silent", "in an instant", "paralyzed", "glowing", "blinding" and (my personal favorite) "disappeared". Let's examine these usages that are indicative of how excited witnesses tell their stories on first recounting. - "Silent". Was the object in question genuinely without any sound? If the witness had been a few feet directly underneath it on a still night in the hinterland, would not even a decibel of sound have noted? In writing up the investigative summary, one must be very careful to distinguish between (what are probably rare) incidents wherein, considering all the physical factors, the vehicle was genuinely silent in terms of human audio perception, as compared to cases in which the witness, for whatever reason, was unable to detect the actual sound generated by metallic parts. Most often, sheer distance was the culprit. Elements in the environment - especially wind, both as it rustles vegetation and crosses the percipient's ears - can easily wipe out a low sound. Therefore, unless the circumstances make it obvious that an anomalous object was really silent, the correct assumption is that "the witness(es) did not perceive any sound in connection with the object." - "In an instant". How long is an instant, anyway? Presumably, it splits a second, but how far? A common meteor may be said to have passed beyond the witness' view in an instant, yet we can roughly gauge its actual speed. "In no time," the vehicle was out of sight - which might be said of an F-16 on a fly-over low to the ground. Obviously, though, some time was involved, and a measurement using a stopwatch can be taken. If the moment in question cannot be so depicted, it may be fairer to convey in the write-up that the object departed at a speed apparently beyond conventional abilities and/or with no sense of acceleration. - "Paralyzed (with fear)". Was the witness genuinely immobilized from an external force? Alternately, was (s)he *psychologically* "captivated", "mesmerized", or "transfixed" due to the unexpected nature of the event? This area of close-encounter research still evokes debate, largely because of imprecise questioning by the investigator of the witness' actual state of mind during the event. -"Glowing". As with Rudolph's nose, when we read this term we assume a light source that is internal to the object in question. If the twilight sun was reflecting off the object, the proper word is "glinting". If the term "glowing" is used, it forces the physicist and engineer to consider specific possibilities. Be careful with this one. - "Blinding". Gosh, was the witness unable to perceive his/her surroundings after the incident? As an example, humans cannot look at the midday sun for more than a second or so without spots before our eyes and tears forming. Furthermore, substantial physiological damage would be done to the cornea in a matter of several seconds. Thus, that serves as a benchmark. Precisely how long was the witness able to look directly at the source, and what were the aftereffects\/ Most often, "blinding" can be downgraded to "brilliant" or just "bright". - "Disappeared". Commonly coined, it is remarked, "Then, all of a sudden it just 'disappeared' (from view)". So, what precisely happened? Did the object molecularly dematerialize? Well, okay, we have plenty of cases through the years that suggest this - although one might argue a progression into the ultra-violet or infra-red spectrum of electromagnetism. More likely in a given instance, however, the witness intended simply to say that the object simply moved beyond the horizon or otherwise out of view. Proper investigating being a learned ability, with lots of pained discoveries along the way, it is understandable that these kinds of superlatives have gone unchallenged in previous cases. If we are to make sense of our data, though, extreme care must be taken before underscoring the witness statement on those tentative points. That's a major reason why detailed questioning must follow the initial witness account. And the investigator's summary must address these factors, clarifying the intended meaning with sober rationale. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- series for Field ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Edge" No. 8 Investigators "THE INVESTIGATOR'S EDGE" --------------------------- [Note: This edition of the "Investigator's Edge" is from the January, 1991 issue of "GEORGIA SKYWATCH", published by GEORGIA-MUFON.] GENERAL --------- Things to keep in mind while doing investigations --------------------------------------------------- AIRCRAFT: Have a minimum of three non-flashing running lights; one on each wing tip and one at the rear. Right wing running light is green, left wing running light is red, and the rear running light is white. [Note: many aircraft also have two strobe lights, one mounted on top and on mounted below the fuselage.] There must not be more than one green running light. Blue is not used as a running light. Helicopters have the same general running light configuration as light planes. ATMOSPHERIC TURBULENCE: Can cause an object (that is near the horizon) to look distorted and magnified. AUTOKINETIC MOTION: Eye movement can cause the witness to think a stationary light or object is moving when in fact it is not. Lining the target up with two other stationary reference points can help to determine whether in fact the object is moving. When a witness says the light was moving in jerky motions--side to side and up and down--suspect the witness is looking at a star. BALL LIGHTENING: Appears hazy or solid, spherical, oval or rod shape. Colors range from red-white with orange being the most common. It can hover, go less than 5 mph or up to 60 mph. It emits a hissing sound and when it explodes an odor of sulfa or ozone is present. It can appear after lightening strikes the ground or in midair. Ball lightening almost always appears during a thunderstorm. DIFFERENT OBJECTIVES: UFO investigators are looking very hard for consistent groups of facts, while UFO witnesses are looking for support and counseling. These are two very different objectives and can be the source of conflict between the witness and the investigator. The wise investigator will keep this in mind when dealing with witnesses. DISTANCE: Most witnesses underestimate the actual distance from the observation point to the object. ELECTROMAGNETIC INTERFERENCE: Electromagnetic interference that can cause an automobile's engine to stall and can interrupt the operation of other electrical devices has sometimes been linked to UFO sighting reports. Such occurances are not limited to gasoline engines. Diesel engines such as found in trucks, boats, trains, and bulldozers have also been affected. Similar reports on airplane engines and radar equipment have also been reported. INVESTIGATOR'S DUTY TO THE WITNESS: The UFO investigator must subordinate his or her need to collect UFO information to the needs and interests of the witness. The health and well-being of the witness must ALWAYS come before the collection of UFO evidence and proof. INTERPRETATION OF WITNESS TESTIMONY: The interpretation of both free and regressed witness narratives is BEST acomplished by behavioral psychologists and other professionals skilled in the process. FEELINGS REPORTED BY WITNESSES: Feelings reported by witnesses include: (A) Being watched (B) Looking me over (C) Feeling of being observed (D) Feeling of fear (E) Feeling of anger (F) It was a beautiful experience (G) Felt happy when it happened (H) Felt object responded to witness (I) Felt the object was trying to communicate with witness PHYSICAL EXAMINATION: The number of witness reports which suggest aliens are interested in observing or manipulating the witness's sexual organs and/or otherwise conducting gynecological examinations of the witness appears to be far less than would be euggested by popular reports. More often, witnesses report examination of their heads. HIGH STRANGENESS: When a large number of witness narratives are examined, it quickly becomes obvious that the witness experience is very complicated and full of unknowns. The vast majority of witness accounts describe perceptions and experiences far stranger than any reported by mainstream abduction researchers. Do not rule out what a witness tells you because it has a high strangeness level. Because we do not know what is true, we must not edit testimony or it becomes absolutely worthless. When reporting witness testimony, do not try to make it seem credible and believable. Rather, expose it as it really is. Unless we do this we have no chance at all of getting at the truth. HYPNOSIS: Information from a regressed subject is sometimes used in the context of other evidence, but it is not itself evidence. Because regressed testimony of UFO witnesses cannot currently by confirmed by hard facts, there remains enormous difficulty with trying to use hypnotized testimony as evidence of real events, even when that testimony agrees in particulars among a group of unconnected witnesses. The primary value of hypnosis is as a counseling device. It is recommended that nobody except a professionally trained hypnotist - preferably one with the credentials of a health professional - hypnotize any UFO witness for any reason, and then only for therapeutic purposes. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ A continuing MUFONET-BBS Network - Mutual UFO Network series for the ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Investigator The Investigator's Edge, Number 9 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ [Note: Article Contributed By Colorado MUFON] ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ WHAT'S MY TRAFFIC ? By Ken Spencer January 27, 1991 Civilian aircraft are directed and guided through the skies over the United States from take-off to landing by way of an extremely sophisticated air traffic control system. Much of this system is supported with a network of air traffic control facilities under the auspices of the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA). Here in Colorado, an airliner departing from Denver can expect to be in communications with several facilities during the course of its flight. These air traffic control facilities perform several functions, not the least of which is to assist the pilot in maintaining a safe clearance between other aircraft. The job for both the air traffic controller and the pilot is usually made easier and safer when radar is available. Radar, however, is not a full proof system and by no stretch of the imagination guarantees a pilot or a controller that a vehicle, known or unknown can be identified. In order to acquire a better understanding of just what I mean, let's take a brief minute to educate ourselves about radar. Radar, an acronym from a term originating during World War II, is short for radio detection and ranging. It's an electronic system by which radio waves are bounced off of an object in order to determine its existence and to locate its position in relation to other objects. The radio waves that are transmitted by a radar antenna, when bounced off of an object such as an aircraft are returned to the antenna and through electronic technology "painted" on a cathode ray tube. Unfortunately, target detection is often hampered by "clutter" which is picked up on the radar screen. This "clutter" can be raindrops generated by a thunderstorm, back-scatter from the ground, or even flocks of birds. In order for an air traffic controller to perform his job and detect aircraft more effectively, radar engineers have designed a means by which the "clutter" can be suppressed. Suppressing this "clutter" unfortunately also affects the ability of a controller to see targets on the radar screen. Further advancements in radar technology as well as a necessity to provide more positive identification of aircraft has required that the air traffic system be modified. This modification has meant that aircraft flying in most types of controlled airspace are required by the FAA to have a device which transmits an assigned identification code and altitude information. This device is called a transponder. If you paid a visit to the Denver Center, which is located in Longmont, Colorado, you would have a first hand opportunity to experience how traffic is identified and controlled within the more than 200,000 square mile area under the facility's jurisdiction. An aircraft departing the Denver Stapleton airport would enter the airspace controlled by Denver Center shortly after take-off. Through electronic technology, the aircraft is painted as a target on a cathode ray tube used by the controller. From each symbol he is able to determine the aircraft identification (United 200, Delta 100 etc.), the altitude of the aircraft, and a multitude of other data to assist him with his job. If you were to listen in on his or her conversation, you might hear the pilot's transmission: "Denver Center this is American 3375 at flight level three seven zero (37,000 feet), I have high speed traffic at my 3 o'clock position (to the right of the aircraft) approximately 5 miles, at my altitude, WHAT'S MY TRAFFIC ? " The controller would peer at the scope, notice the American Airlines MD-80 symbol, but see nothing resembling a blip or target anywhere near the aircraft. His response would be: "American 3375, I have no traffic at your 3 o'clock position ". The response from the pilot might be: "Denver Center my traffic is now at my 9 o'clock position, appears to be a black, odd shaped object without any discernible markings moving at a high rate of speed. " The controller might say: " American 3375, I have no traffic at your 9'o'clock position ". With the seemingly endless amount of information available to the air traffic controller, you would think that a situation like this might not be possible. However, this occurs more often than one might think. The target viewed on the CRT at Denver Center is computerized video data and not raw radar. The information is gathered from several radar antennas scattered throughout the state of Colorado and fed into a central computer. It is then displayed as a target symbol on the CRT. If an unidentified aircraft, such as one without a transponder, or one using stealth technology wanders into controlled airspace, a controller may not pick the aircraft up on his scope. There are several reports where aircraft have penetrated controlled airspace without notifying the controlling agency. Aircraft of unknown origin, believe it or not, moving at high rates of speed, maneuvering in a manner not readily associated with anything known to man have been seen by pilots without the benefit of radar identification. In fact, Denver Center recently (December 29, 1990) contacted Colorado MUFON regarding a similar incident reported by a pilot in the airspace above Colorado. We all share the same interest and continue to search for a solution to the UFO enigma. In this instance, we were contacted by a government agency. However, for every incident where government support is freely provided, there are many situations where it is not. This is generally the result of preserving confidentiality, or as a controller recently indicated to me, not being free to release information because of government policy. Never the less, field investigators must pursue every reasonable avenue to gather and document whatever he or she learned for inclusion in the case report and, for the record. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Note - This article is a slightly expanded and modified version of an article appearing in the "Colorado MUFON News" , November/December 1990 issue. Also appearing in the same issue is a summary of the incident which is referred to in this article regarding a daytime sighting made by an airline pilot over southern Colorado. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ For Field Mutual UFO Network - MUFONET-BBS Network Copyright 1991 Investigators ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Mutual UFO THE INVESTIGATOR'S EDGE, No. 10 Network ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ AIRCRAFT LIGHTS: An Explanation By Ken Spencer ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ March 2, 1991 Aircraft lights come in different sizes, shapes, and are used for several different purposes. When first developed, aircraft lights were designed to fulfill the same purpose as lights originally installed on boats or ships. A sailor observing a ship moving on the open waters at night found it difficult to determine its direction of travel or its position relative to his own. In the interest of safety, lights were located on the port side (left), starboard side (right), and one at the stern (aft) end of the ship. The colors of the lights were red, green and white respectively. That way an individual observing the ship from a distance would be able to easily determine how the ship was positioned relative to the individual and also determine its direction of travel. The Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) require that aircraft have position or navigational lights configured in the same manner. As the pilot faces forward in the cockpit, he would find a green light on his right wing tip, a red light on his left wing tip and a white light on the tail. These position lights are required to be on for all operations, ground and flight, between the hours of official sunset and sunrise. Aside from the position or navigational lights, a variety of other lights are found on aircraft which may be of interest to those of us involved in the field of U.F.O. Investigations. Let's take a minute to look at some of these lights, their location on an aircraft and the situations under which they might be used. We need to bear in mind, as we examine these lighting systems, that aircraft vary in size and type of operation. We will therefore restrict our examination to the more common lighting systems associated with conventional aircraft. ANTICOLLISION LIGHTS Anticollision lights are used primarily to assist in assuring that an aircraft is readily seen while on the ground or in flight. These lights are generally mounted in the wing tips not far from the position lights. With most airline operated aircraft these lights are white and are generally of the strobe variety. Another type of anticollision light is red, (strobe, flashing, oscillating or rotating beacon type) and is located on top and/or underneath the fuselage (main body structure) of the aircraft. These lights are generally on for all operations, ground and flight, day and night, below 18,000 feet. At night these lights are kept on regardless of altitude. LANDING LIGHTS The aircraft landing lights are used for both illumination of the landing/take-off area as well as for collision avoidance in flight. Landing lights, depending on the size and type of aircraft, can be mounted in a number of locations. They can be located in the left and right leading edge of the wings, on the nose gear strut, or in some cases are extended below the wings. In the case of most airline operations these lights are generally on from the time a takeoff clearance is issued until the aircraft reaches 18,000 feet or from 18,000 feet until the aircraft clears the runway after landing. RUNWAY TURNOFF LIGHTS Runway turnoff lights, sometimes referred to as taxi lights, visually assist the pilot at night when maneuvering between the terminal and the runway. These lights are either mounted on the leading edge of the wings, on the nose gear strut or some location which will provide sufficient illumination in front of the aircraft. These lights are rarely operated while the aircraft is in flight unless they are an integral part of the landing light system or unless the pilot deems it necessary for safety reasons (i.e. additional collision avoidance). WING LIGHTS In order to assist the pilot in viewing a section of the wing or engine nacelles (engine enclosures), lights are flush mounted in the fuselage and pointed outward in the appropriate direction. These lights would be operated by the pilot when he wishes to inspect the wing section or engine in the event of an abnormal situation such as icing or structural damage. LOGO LIGHTS Marketing people are always looking for creative ways to advertise or promote a product. With the airline industry, one such creative genius led to the use of logo lights on aircraft. These lights are usually mounted in the horizontal stabilizer (horizontal part of the tail) pointing in the direction of the vertical stabilizer (vertical part of the tail). Besides illuminating the logo on the tail of the aircraft, the pilot uses the logo lights for an additional means of collision avoidance. Most of the airlines require that the logo lights, if installed and operational, be turned on continuously between sunset and sunrise. UTILITY LIGHTS A number of other exterior lights may be installed on an aircraft such as cargo door lights and emergency evacuation lights. The cargo door lights illuminate the area around the cargo compartment and are generally used to assist cargo/ramp agents in loading cargo into the aircraft. The normal procedure is to extinguish these lights once the cargo operation has been completed. Another set of lights, sometimes called evacuation lights, are used to assist passengers during an emergency evacuation from the aircraft. These are usually flush mounted into the fuselage of the aircraft adjacent to a passenger door or emergency exit. These lights are used to illuminate the evacuation area and are generally set to automatically energize in the event of an emergency. As I indicated early on in this article, most of the light configurations described here are applicable to conventional aircraft. These lighting systems may vary slightly depending on the type of aircraft, the manufacturer, and the kind of operating environment. If, as an investigator, a witness observes a lighting system typical to what was presented here, there is always the possibility that the object may be an aircraft. On the other hand, we need to document, in sufficient detail, the observation regardless of whether it coincides with an aircraft lighting system or not, for the record. =END= ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ For MUFON MUFONET-BBS Network - Mutual UFO Network Copyright 1991 Field ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Mutual UFO Investigators The Investigator's Edge, No. 11 Network ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ TEMPORAL LOBE EPILEPSY ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ By Robert J. Durrant [Note: Mr. Durrant is a member and contributing writer for the New Jersey MUFON Chapter, and current State Section Director for Mercer County.] Epilepsy...a chronic nervous disease, characterized by fits, occurring at intervals and attended by convulsive motions of the muscles and loss of consciousness. So says the dictionary, and the man-on-the-street would agree. The sort of epilepsy described above results from irregular electrical functioning in those parts of the brain that control many of the muscles. As the ability to monitor the brain's electrical activity developed, it became obvious that other parts of the brain are similarly prone to the haphazard currents that produce the physical, convulsive type of epilepsy. Of particular interest to this discussion is epilepsy of the temporal lobes of the brain. These areas control what is often called the "higher functions" of the brain/mind. That is, "..accessing declarative memory, the conscious or active recall of not only what was learned but when and where it was acquired, and with attributing personal meaning or significance to the constant stream of sensory input." What happens when this portion of the brain suffers an epileptic event? The subject does not thrash about---the temporal lobe doesn't have any connection with the muscles. Instead, he tends to have experiences that could be called mystical or paranormal, a sense of a very special purpose in life, or he imbues unusual events with great and unrealistic meaning. These are not just vague and generalized feelings. Often they are extremely intense and at times are described as "more real than real." In some cases this form of epilepsy is so vivid and frequent that a formal psychiatric and neurological diagnosis of temporal lobe epilepsy is possible. But the usual case seems to present only occasional events. As with any medical condition, the person afflicted is not likely to seek help unless the condition is painful or debilitating. A positive diagnosis is possible, but a negative diagnosis is speculative at best. In other words, it is not within the state of the art of today's medical technology to say definitely that nay given patient does not have temporal lobe epilepsy. Whitley Strieber, author of Communion, Transformation, and Majestic, underwent two series of tests for temporal lobe epilepsy. Both were negative. Per the remarks above, and by his own admission, that still leaves open the option that he does suffer from the condition. But it would indicate that the condition occurs only sporadically, if at all. It is certainly to Strieber's credit that he went to such lengths to preclude a psychiatric foundation for his abduction experiences. In addition to the general symptoms listed above, there exists a set of quite intriguing specific symptoms of temporal lobe epilepsy. They are as follows: 1. Paranormal/mystical experiences 2. Enhanced imaginings (especially from childhood) 3. Widening affect 4. Vestibular (floating, low frequency vibration) sensations 5. Anomalous smells 6. Intense episodes of personal meaning With this set of symptoms in mind, I reviewed the three Strieber books related to UFO's and abductions. My goal was to determine if there exists in that body of writing a clearly repeated emphasis on these topics. Communion and it's sequel Transformation can fairly be said to be continuous reiterations of symptoms 1,2,3,4 (floating) and 6. Majestic is a fictionalized rendering of the Roswell crash and it's aftermath. It should be distinguished from the previous two books, which are veridical and autobiographical. One would expect to find that Majestic presents few, if any, of the temporal lobe symptoms. This on the theory that the autobiographical abduction accounts were produced subsequent to epileptic events, but that the deliberate fiction writing would be free of the symptomology. My analysis shows that most of the symptoms are present in greatly reduced intensity in Majestic compared with the previous books. But oddly, symptom 4 is there in complete form, with both floating as well as low frequency vibrations, and so is symptom 5, which is nearly absent in the earlier works, but here erupts repeatedly, indeed, so common are references to these two symptoms in Majestic that I have systematically culled them out of the text and listed them serially below. Perhaps their concatenated, seemingly obsessive use is merely a literary device. certainly Strieber is a master of the thriller, and I will defer to him on this point, but it does seem strained and unnatural to my eye. The simple interpretation of this analysis is that Strieber is clearly suffering from temporal lobe epilepsy. As with everything else in UFOlogy, and particularly the abduction phenomenon, quick judgments are dangerous. Several other optional interpretations are possible, and I will summarize them here with the understanding that in future articles they will be expanded. First, that most if not all persons who have close encounters with UFO's suffer, among a variety of other physiological effects, disruption of the electrical functions of the brain, including the temporal lobe area. because of the peculiarities of the temporal lobe, "flashbacks" can occur throughout life after the initial triggering event. It is unlikely that monitoring of the electrical pulses of the brain would reveal the irregularities associated with clinical diagnosis of temporal lobe epilepsy. Second, it may be that external means of controlling or communicating with the temporal lobe regions is the means by which the aliens deal with abductees. In addition to the positive communications or signals, the process may well include generation of "noise" both during the communication and, per the remarks above, long after the communications. This option may seem absurdly speculative, but in fact it is based on laboratory work that has been carried out for several years. Subjects have had their temporal lobes excited by external electromagnetic radiations, with the result that many of them experience visions and sensations remarkably similar to the standard abduction. This will also be covered in detail in future articles. =END= ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ MUFONET-BBS network - Mutual UFO network ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ THE INVESTIGATOR'S EDGE ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ HANGNAIL, MAYBE! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ [Contributed by Georgia MUFON] The next time you have one of those UFO sightings...in addition to looking at the UFO...note the time...direction...and stick your arm out straight forward toward the object with hand up fingers apart palm outward. Those aliens will think your waving at them. In reality you will be comparing the size of the craft to the size of your fingernails and determining the azimuth of the craft by seeing how many outstretched hands you can put between the horizon and the craft. Your little finger nail is about the size of an aspirin....and when aimed at the moon will just about cover it. The size of your thumb nail is twice that size. By knowing the distance from your eyes to your outstretched hand (take a yard stick and measure it)...and estimating the distance between you and the object...and using a little trigonometry, it is possible for you to determine the size of the object. Knowing the size of the object can be very helpful in the field investigation to follow. =END= ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Don -- -* Don Allen *- InterNet: dona@bilver.UUCP // Amiga..for the best of us. USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-) UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!vicstoy!dona KING George Bush?? Just say NO! UFO's in commercials....is the GOVT getting us ready for OCTOBER of 1992? Path: ns-mx!uunet!wupost!uwm.edu!linac!att!att!fang!tarpit!bilver!dona From: dona@bilver.uucp (Don Allen) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: APRO contact Message-ID: <1991Aug26.042208.22142@bilver.uucp> Date: 26 Aug 91 04:22:08 GMT References: Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL Lines: 23 In article beddow@ux.acs.umn.edu (Jeff Beddow) writes: >Distribution:world > >Anyone know how to get in touch with APRO? > >They sponsored an interesting exhibit here in MPLS a > >few years ago and I wonder what happened to it. > >-Jeff I believe that APRO died along with Coral and Jim Lorentzen, when they passed away a few years ago. You might ask Mike Corbin if he has Allen Benz's address, as he may still have some of their files. Don -- -* Don Allen *- InterNet: dona@bilver.UUCP // Amiga..for the best of us. USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-) UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!vicstoy!dona KING George Bush?? Just say NO! UFO's in commercials....is the GOVT getting us ready for OCTOBER of 1992? Path: ns-mx!uunet!pmafire! From: jeffl@servprod.inel.gov (Jeff Later) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: COLUMBIAN ALIENS AND BUSH Message-ID: <1991Aug26.212641.29603@pmafire.inel.gov> Date: 26 Aug 91 21:26:41 GMT References: <1510@mixcom.COM> Sender: J.B. Later Distribution: usa Organization: WINCO Lines: 26 In article <1510@mixcom.COM> jjwwjj@mixcom.COM (Robotic Systems) writes: >Also, I too have noticed more advertising which includes references to >aliens and UFOs. I am skeptical, but I've got to admit, this is starting >to get scary! Or, are UFOs just becoming vouge? Someone else mentioned a while back about there being a noticeable increase in the amount of advertising on television which used "aliens and UFO's" as props or "themes". I guess I just dismissed this at first, and then last night caught the tale end of a "Duracell?" battery commercial using the "UFO" theme. I was kind of surprised! In fact, I think part of the "plot" of the ad involved a parents son being "abducted"? Anyone else catch this ad? Is it greater awareness on the public's part, or ARE we being "conditioned"??? I find that the more research and reading I do regarding this subject, the more difficult it becomes to stay "objective" about the topic! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Jeff B. Later WB7TZA (jeffl@pmafire.inel.gov) Later's Law Of Social Dynamics: "For Every Action, There Is An Opposite and UNequal OVEReaction!" {8^) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ****************"Disclaimer, Disclaimer, where's my lawyer!"***************** ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Path: ns-mx!uunet!wupost!hsdndev!rutgers!cbmvax!amix!anuurn!ffoire From: ffoire@anuurn.UUCP (Jeff Orrok) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Roswell Message-ID: <368@anuurn.UUCP> Date: 26 Aug 91 23:19:18 GMT References: Organization: the Hani homeworld. (Wilmette, IL) Lines: 40 this is a followup to a 2-week old topic: Roswell Something just occurred to me; if you *really* want to make a stab at producing physical evidence, you should get a team of geologist/chemist types which include interested and (more or less) "objective" individuals and run a big soil analysis on the crash site. I don't care how many g.i.'s you have combing a field, if there are particles that are sand-sized or smaller, I'd be willing to bet that there would be *something* still there, even after 45 years (after all, how do the archeologists and geologists get away with their claims about irridium dust from asteriod impacts by looking at a few sea-floor drilling cores?). Run all sorts of micro-spectroscopy and electron micrography tests, compare them with supposedly normal soil samples from all over the place, and let a statistical analysis of the results say if there are any weird foil-compounds there. If something is found, I imagine that the govt would be all but compelled to reveal what they have. If not, I suppose you would hear some fancy explanations that THEY went and replaced a few square miles of topsoil to prevent any detection (given *working* nanotechnology, I suppose this is actually possible, but it seems to me that whoever "THEY" are, they aren't careful or scrupulous enough to confiscate ALL evidence, erase ALL memories, or retrieve ALL particles from a disintegrated vehicle). * * * "and now for something completely different" * * * while I'm taking the trouble to post this, I would also like to deride the notion of aliens looking for food or other bio-stuff: anyone who is capable of interstellar travel ought to have the food and medicine problems beat, so anyone who uses that excuse should be moved to the bottom of the credibility tree. I will be happy to explain my reasoning to any who require it, but right now, I've still got half of this newsgroup to page through :-) je -- "The genius of you Americans is that you never make clear-cut stupid moves, only complicated stupid moves which make us wonder at the possibility that there may be something to them which we are missing." -- Gamal Abdel Nasser --ffoire@anuurn.home.nwu.edu --ffoire@anuurn.chi.il.us Path: ns-mx!uunet!cbmvax!amix!anuurn!ffoire From: ffoire@anuurn.UUCP (Jeff Orrok) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: ALIENS: THE BIG _LIE_ !!! Message-ID: <370@anuurn.UUCP> Date: 27 Aug 91 03:29:47 GMT References: Organization: the Hani homeworld. (Wilmette, IL) Lines: 13 jms@vanth.UUCP (Jim Shaffer) writes: [.. i'm forced to delete stuff, inews wont let me include more lines than I write myself. Goddamn right-wing netiquette busybody software! ] > heard that the aliens in CETK were based on abduction accounts. (I've also > heard that some of the spacecraft were based on the Bentwaters case, which > incidentally is going to be the season premier of "Unsolved Mysteries" > complete with effects by ILM.) WOAH! waitaminit!! Close Encounters was put out in the late seventies (wasnt it 78?) A couple of articles back, I read that Bentwater happened at the end of 1980. Kill the rumor! Path: ns-mx!uunet!cbmvax!amix!vanth!jms From: jms@vanth.UUCP (Jim Shaffer) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Who's seen a 'Grey' ? Message-ID: Date: 26 Aug 91 14:51:04 GMT References: <1991Aug20.054043.20345@cbnewse.cb.att.com> Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence Lines: 25 In article axolotl@socs.uts.edu.au (Iain D. Sinclair) writes: >In this new hardback I flick-read in a store today, apparently >a 'grey' wandered into some Spanish doctor's office and asked for >an examination. It looked nearly human, except on close examination. >It then proceeded to tell the doc that humanity is really screwing up >our environment, and that you should stop, and we're telling you >this because the important people won't listen. I doubt it was a grey. Sounds more like the kind of thing the New Age people keep going on about. (Besides, we don't really need aliens to tell us that we're trashing the planet. It's evident to anyone with half a brain.) >(The book was _Alien [?]_ by [?] Good.) Must be _Alien Liaisons_ by Tim Good. I haven't read it yet, and at this rate I'm not sure I *want* to! (_Above Top Secret_ was excellent, however.) -- * From the disk of: |****** NOTE NEW ADDRESSES ******| We're only immortal Jim Shaffer, Jr. |* uunet!snark!vanth!jms *| for a limited time. 37 Brook Street |**jms%vanth@snark.thyrsus.com***| Montgomery, PA 17752 | 72750.2335@compuserve.com | (Rush, "Dreamline") Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!usc!apple!agate!boulder!spot.Colorado.EDU!clarkbr From: clarkbr@spot.Colorado.EDU (CLARK BRIAN R) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Roswell Message-ID: <1991Aug27.052450.12857@colorado.edu> Date: 27 Aug 91 05:24:50 GMT References: <368@anuurn.UUCP> Sender: news@colorado.edu (The Daily Planet) Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder Lines: 34 Nntp-Posting-Host: spot.colorado.edu In article <368@anuurn.UUCP> ffoire@anuurn.UUCP (Jeff Orrok) writes: >this is a followup to a 2-week old topic: Roswell > >...bunch o' stuff deleted... >* * * "and now for something completely different" * * * > >while I'm taking the trouble to post this, I would also like to deride the >notion of aliens looking for food or other bio-stuff: anyone who is capable >of interstellar travel ought to have the food and medicine problems beat, so >anyone who uses that excuse should be moved to the bottom of the credibility >tree. I will be happy to explain my reasoning to any who require it, but >right now, I've still got half of this newsgroup to page through :-) > >je >-- >"The genius of you Americans is that you never make clear-cut stupid moves, >only complicated stupid moves which make us wonder at the possibility that >there may be something to them which we are missing." -- Gamal Abdel Nasser > >--ffoire@anuurn.home.nwu.edu >--ffoire@anuurn.chi.il.us I would very much like to hear the reasoning behind your statement that if an alien culture could master interstellar travel, then they would have no problems with respect to food or medicine. Thanks - Brian -- "Humor is the contemplation of the finite from the point of view of the infinite." - Christian Morgenstern (1871-1914) Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!samsung!munnari.oz.au!bruce!monu0.cc.monash.edu.au!monu6!minyos.xx.rmit.oz.au!rxxgre From: rxxgre@minyos.xx.rmit.oz.au (Geof Rey Evans) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy Subject: Re: SIGHTING REPORT 3: Australia Message-ID: <1991Aug27.034405.22207@minyos.xx.rmit.oz.au> Date: 27 Aug 91 03:44:05 GMT References: <1991Aug23.035544.17652@bilver.uucp> <1991Aug26.040136.18497@minyos.xx.rmit.oz.au> <91238.144128SML108@psuvm.psu.edu> Organization: RMIT Computer Centre, Melbourne Australia. Lines: 29 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:1862 alt.conspiracy:6756 SML108@psuvm.psu.edu (Scott the Great) writes: >In short, if you believe anything THEY say, based on their presentation, >would you like to buy some Russian Farmland? >Scott <<<* Only if it's near Chernobyl. No flames...I had a laugh instead.*>>> B-> GRE. >> >> >> ___________________________________________________________________ >>|| Geof Evans | DOMAIN: rxxgre@minyos.xx.rmit.oz.au || >>|| Melbourne,Australia 3000 | Tel: +61 3 663 3663 || >>||<<<*** If they *really* wanna know...tell 'em God was drunk.***>>> || >>||___________________________________________________________________|| >> >> >>-- >> >> ___________________________________________________________________ >>|| Geof Evans | DOMAIN: rxxgre@minyos.xx.rmit.oz.au || >>|| Melbourne,Australia 3000 | Tel: +61 3 663 3663 || -- ___________________________________________________________________ || Geof Evans | DOMAIN: rxxgre@minyos.xx.rmit.oz.au || || Melbourne,Australia 3000 | Tel: +61 3 663 3663 || Path: ns-mx!uunet!hbiso!mips2!bull.bull.fr!corton!mcsun!news.funet.fi!sunic!kullmar!compuram!pgd From: pgd@compuram.bbt.se Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Teachings by an alien visitor Message-ID: <1991Aug24.081524.11490@compuram.bbt.se> Date: 24 Aug 91 08:15:24 GMT Lines: 96 We will now examine the different civilisations of the universe, and in particular the higher evolved inhabitants. The advancement level of different planets can be divided in three classes. Each class consist of many planets, and many civilisations. Class 1 planets: This inhabitants of these planetary systems are to most advanced in this universe. They are in general aware of the "geografi" of the whole universe, and have also a supervisory status of the universe. They don't have your kind of technology, but rather you would call it "biological technology". Everything is highly beautiful, on these planets. All houses are like palaces, and all forests are like gardens. It is so nice that some of you humans call it "heaven", and look at it as a final destination. There are indeed inhabitants with wings there. There are also those playing instruments and dancing. In general, the situation is pretty peaceful there, and everyone is busy having a "nice" time. Maybe what would interest you most, are the humanoid inhabitants. Their main duties are as actors, musicians, dancers and prostitutes. This is indeed a paradise for humans. No sicknesses, no problems, everything taken care of. Although they are considered lower class, they are still completely free persons. They sometimes travel to earth for tourism, like you sometimes visit, for example, african tribes. Occasionally they contact humans, for fun. But beware, they generally look on you as animals, and can be pretty nasty, or play jokes with you. Some can also be friendly. They have weapons very superior to yours, so trying to attack them makes you no good. The higher class inhabitants are of more serious nature. Although they are even more elevated than the humanoid, they don't bother you. They have powers to stop natural catastrophes, and the weather, and might in general help you in different ways. That is part of their duties, in the administration of the universe. But you cannot see them, unless they show themselves to you. If you are lucky enought to meet one, it is a great favour for you. They don't visit your earth planet, since they know what is going on there, without going there in person. These planetary system lives in another, what you would call, "space-time", than you. One day of their time, is around one year of yours. If you could travel there, you would also live according to their time. But humans are strictly forbidden to visit. Only a very few cases are known. Enjoyment in these planets is ample. In fact, you might call them "the planets of enjoyment". Sex-life is completely free (with humans), and very rarely brings children. They also drink intoxicants which are wastly superior to yours, and have no ill effect on their bodies. You might call the inhabitants "Godly". Althought some of you humans think that they are gods, they themselves know the real God. Class 2 planets: You earth planet, and civilisation, belongs to this class. There are more planets in this class also. Some more advanced than you, some less. These planets are often lumped together in one group, and are called "the planets of death". You know these planets well, so I won't say any more. Class 3 planets: The technology of these planets are of your kind, but much more developed than yours. Some have spaces-ships and space travel all over the universe (execept for to the class 1 planets, where they are forbidden to go). The mentality of the inhabitants is quite cruel, and not very friendly to you. Some have humans for food. They are constantily in war, inbetween themselves, and also with those from the Class 1 planets. If you came in war with them, they would easily crush you, since their weapons are far superior to yours. They might involve themselves with your dealings, but would probably rather help a dictator to win power, than to help for your "people". Some inhabitants are humanoid, but others have all kind of forms. Some you would would call insect-like, other bird-like, or snake-like. There are also different classes of inhabitants. Many are slaves to the ruling masters. The level of enjoyment is higher than yours, but lower than that from the highest systems. They constantly drink alcohol, and similar intoxiants, and get a lot of children out of their sex-life. They are all God-denying. Some don't have any concept of God, others have, but hate Him. -- -- Per Lindqvist Internet: pgd@compuram.bbt.se Fidonet: Per Lindqvist @ 2:201/332 Path: ns-mx!uunet!convex!swarren From: swarren@convex.com (Steve Warren) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy Subject: Re: SIGHTING REPORT 3: Australia Message-ID: <1991Aug27.160851.25720@convex.com> Date: 27 Aug 91 16:08:51 GMT References: <1991Aug23.035544.17652@bilver.uucp> <1991Aug26.040136.18497@minyos.xx.rmit.oz.au> <91238.144128SML108@psuvm.psu.edu> Sender: usenet@convex.com (news access account) Organization: CONVEX Computer Corporation, Richardson, Tx., USA Lines: 27 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:1864 alt.conspiracy:6761 Nntp-Posting-Host: neptune.convex.com In article <91238.144128SML108@psuvm.psu.edu> SML108@psuvm.psu.edu (Scott the Great) writes: [...] >_The Late Great Planet Earth_, the source of many misinterpretations of the >quatrains of Nostrodamus, even you can now count their prophesies that >failed 1) No cannibalistic famine on the west coast 2) Nobody showed >up with a blue turban 3) No big California Earthquake anywhere near the >projected date and 4) It's 1991 and New York City is STILL standing, _The [...] >In short, if you believe anything THEY say, based on their presentation, >would you like to buy some Russian Farmland? Scott, (evidently a legend in your own mind, from your user-ID) You really should make an effort to read a book before telling people what it contains. "The Late Great Planet Earth" has nothing to do with Nostradamus. The book was written by Hal Lindsey, an Evangelical Christian, who would be horrified if he knew someone thought he gave any validity to Nostradamus (Evangelicals are quite touchy about occult and psychic predictions). The book is entirely devoted to attempting to interpret apocryphal writings in the Bible. None of the predictions you mentioned are suggested in the book. The Bible gives no dates, and neither does Lindsey's book. -- _. --Steve ._||__ Warren v\ *| V Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!samsung!nstar!sara From: sara@nstar.rn.com (Sara Gordon) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: authors that write back Message-ID: Date: 27 Aug 91 19:07:03 GMT Sender: news@news.rn.com (Usenet News) Organization: NSTAR, Indiana's BBS 219-289-0287/317-251-7391 Lines: 14 Nntp-Posting-Host: zztop.rn.com Apparently I was hasty with my conclusion that authors do not write back:) I received today a letter from Ray Fowler; he included the names of area MUFON State Directors for Indiana. So, if anyone has thought of writing, and written, and has concluded the authors do not write back, think again. They do write back--it just takes more than a little time. -- Sara Gordon Northern Star 8 line BBS 219-289-0287/317-251-7391 internet: sara@nstar.rn.com uucp: ..!uunet!nstar.rn.com!sara -= newsfeeds available, contact robert@towers.rn.com =- Path: ns-mx!uunet!mcsun!ukc!icdoc!ibmassc!rob From: rob@aixssc.ibm.co.uk (Robert Trevelyan) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Crop Circles. The Ickleton Mandelbrot Message-ID: <1991Aug27.082106.24287@aixssc.ibm.co.uk> Date: 27 Aug 91 08:21:06 GMT Sender: @aixssc.ibm.co.uk Organization: AIX Systems Support Centre, UK. Lines: 69 Originator: rob@eeyore.aixssc.uk.ibm.com The Ickleton Mandelbrot ----------------------- A strange formation appeared the night of August 11/12 in a wheatfield on a hill top 10 miles south of Cambridge, England. The was reported to be a heart-shaped formation but on closer observation found it to be far more than any "normal" crop circle. This new formation was in fact a Mandelbrot ! and was 100 yards in length. A colleague of mine visited the site and confirmed that the formation was in fact, as near as possible, a complete Mandelbrot set. The large cartoid component was about 120ft across, tangential to this was a circle of 47ft diameter and on top of this again a 16ft circle. Attached to each side of the cardoid was three smaller unequal circles, the size of each matching its partner on the opposite side of the cartoid. Tiny circles also existed and were attached to the outside of the centre ones and also on the 47ft circle. These tiny circles were as small as 16 inches and were attached to the main body and mirrored about the central axis. I have viewed a computer program that creates this Mandelbrot Set and all circles and conponents were found to be exactly placed. Presumed at first to be an elaborate hoax perpetrated by mathematic students at Cambridge University this was denied by them. Each circle was perfect and was swirled in a clockwise direction even down to a single stalk in the centre of the cartoid. Ariel photographs have been taken by my colleague but unfortunately on returning the next day he found that the farmer had driven his combine harvester straight through the formation destroying this fantastic work of art. I understand that copies of these photos are on their way to Benoit B. Mandelbrot, a research fellow at IBM Yorktown Heights, NY. who from work with fractal geometry and the mathematical study of forms having a fractional dimension has termed the Mandelbrot Set. Fractal geometry is used in the study of chaos and also in the study of growth patterns in the natural world. For those of you that like the heavy stuff on Mandelbrot here it is: From "Scientific American" August 1985.. "The Mandelbrot set broods in silent complexity at the centre of a vast two-dimensional sheet of numbers called the complex plane. When a certain operation is applied repeatedly to the numbers, the ones outside the set flee to infinity and the numbers inside remain to drift or dance about. Close to the boundary minutely choreographed wanderings mark the onset of instability. Here is an infinite regress of detail which astonishes us with its variety, its complexity and its strange beauty." This fantastic and unexplainable formation was feature with a photograph in 26 August 1991 "Sunday Telegraph" and one can see from the photograph that it really is very precise. If anyone has a Mandelbrot computer graphics program I strongly suggest that you run it and view the end result because it is so similar to the Ickleton Mandelbrot its unreal. +-------------------------------------------------------------------+ | DISCLAIMER: | | The views expressed in this document are not a corporate view | | nor reflect the views of my employer by any means but are my | | own personal views on this subject . | | | | Robert Trevelyan UKnet: rob@aixssc.ibm.co.uk | | AIX Communications VNET: TREVELR at BASVM2 | | Voice: +44-(0)256-56144 | +-------------------------------------------------------------------+ Path: ns-mx!uunet!decwrl!pa.dec.com!e2big.mko.dec.com!engage.pko.dec.com!verga.enet.dec.com!stanley From: stanley@verga.enet.dec.com Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: FILE: Dreams.txt - Dream or vision of things to come? Message-ID: <1991Aug27.164453.1922@engage.pko.dec.com> Date: 27 Aug 91 21:36:49 GMT Sender: newsdaemon@engage.pko.dec.com (USENET News Daemon) Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation Lines: 33 In article <1991Aug26.041004.21952@bilver.uucp>, dona@bilver.uucp (Don Allen) writes... > > I have related the events listed above as part of something that I > feel the need to do. I really don't care if you believe me or not. I > am not a prophet of doom or, like some others, trying to line my > pockets by pretending to be some kind of authority. I am just a guy > that seems to have been thrust into an unusual circumstance. Ignore > it? no chance. I am sure that I have had these dreams. Whether they > reflect reality or not remains to be seen. At this point I merely > know what I know. I have come to accept what has occurred and am > continuing my life. I refuse to go to the mat and try to convince > anyone that what has occurred is real. If you chose to not believe > it, so be it. If you choose to believe that what I have related is > true, so be it. I know that it occurred. Since that time I have done > a lot of reading and learning about the UFO community and the > promoters and the nay-sayers. I am certain that I will be de-bunked > and called a phony and all the rest. Confidentially, I don't give a > ragged rats ass. I know what I know. > > Randy Terpstra >------------------------------------------------------------------------ I believe you, Randy. Welcome to Armageddon. --- Mary Stanley "What a long strange trip it's been" (INTERNET,UUCP) stanley@verga.enet.dec.com (UUCP) ...!decwrl!verga.enet!stanley (INTERNET) stanley%verga.enet@decwrl.dec.com --- Path: ns-mx!uunet!wupost!psuvax1!psuvm!sml108 From: SML108@psuvm.psu.edu (Scott the Great) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy Subject: Re: SIGHTING REPORT 3: Australia Message-ID: <91239.195935SML108@psuvm.psu.edu> Date: 27 Aug 91 23:59:35 GMT References: <1991Aug23.035544.17652@bilver.uucp> <1991Aug26.040136.18497@minyos.xx.rmit.oz.au> <91238.144128SML108@psuvm.psu.edu> <1991Aug27.160851.25720@convex.com> Organization: Penn State University Lines: 58 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:1868 alt.conspiracy:6768 In article <1991Aug27.160851.25720@convex.com>, swarren@convex.com (Steve Warren) says: > >In article <91238.144128SML108@psuvm.psu.edu> SML108@psuvm.psu.edu (Scott the >Great) writes: > [...] >>_The Late Great Planet Earth_, the source of many misinterpretations of the >>quatrains of Nostrodamus, even you can now count their prophesies that >>failed 1) No cannibalistic famine on the west coast 2) Nobody showed >>up with a blue turban 3) No big California Earthquake anywhere near the >>projected date and 4) It's 1991 and New York City is STILL standing, _The > [...] >>In short, if you believe anything THEY say, based on their presentation, >>would you like to buy some Russian Farmland? > >Scott, (evidently a legend in your own mind, from your user-ID) A legend? Hah, I'm a whole damned mythology! >You really should make an effort to read a book before telling people what it >contains. "The Late Great Planet Earth" has nothing to do with Nostradamus. >The book was written by Hal Lindsey, an Evangelical Christian, who would be >horrified if he knew someone thought he gave any validity to Nostradamus >(Evangelicals are quite touchy about occult and psychic predictions). > >The book is entirely devoted to attempting to interpret apocryphal writings in >the Bible. None of the predictions you mentioned are suggested in the book. >The Bible gives no dates, and neither does Lindsey's book. >-- > >--Sleeve --:-- (See I can deface names too...) > Coat ->//|:|\\ > We're not talking about the book, we're talking about the Shick-Sun Classic Flick made around 1978-1980. As I remember they incorporated material from Nostrodamus' quatrains into a really shoddy prediction of doom, gloom and futility that would be upon us by the late '80's. Did Lindsey make up all his blather from the Apocrypha or was it mostly from Revelations? After all, the Apocrypha are probably the writings of Satan in the eyes of an evangelist, as are I bet The Gnostic Gospels, though I'd like to be wrong about that... Another highlight was a supposed computer search of names for the anti-christ, which I guess they never found. Though come to think of it, you may be right, there may have been YET another Schick-Sun Classic epic devoted to Nostrodamus. Anyone out there remember the details? The highlight of the whole thing was the Blue Turban's way cool war room where he launched his attack on "The New City "=New York City... According to the flick, war was to commence soon after Halley's Comet passed, I think it was even supposed to still be viewable in the opening rounds. Ultimately, all hell was supposed to break loose by 1994 when New York City got toasted... My apologies if there were indeed two such movies, but then again, only a real weenie would get offended by something so trivial. Are you a weenie? Scott Path: ns-mx!uunet!mcsun!ukc!liv-cs!liv!sapt99 From: SAPT99@LIVERPOOL.AC.UK Newsgroups: soc.culture.soviet,alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: HELPING THE SOVIET ECONOMY+ space travel and NATO Message-ID: <91240.022605SAPT99@LIVERPOOL.AC.UK> Date: 28 Aug 91 01:26:05 GMT Organization: University of Liverpool Lines: 62 Supersedes: <91240.003539SAPT99@LIVERPOOL.AC.UK> Xref: ns-mx soc.culture.soviet:1516 alt.alien.visitors:1869 In article , geirha@ifi.uio.no (Geir Egil Hauge) says: > >A very actual question now is: How can we help Soviet to get their ecomomy up >from the ditch? > >- Is it a solution to give them food? >- Is it a solution to lend them much money? > >No, I don't think so. It would make Soviet a third world country, and we have >already helped the third world countries in beeing third world countries for a >pretty long time. > I agree. That saying with the fish or fishing rod you give to a hungry man is very true. The third world got fish .. The Soviet Union is the richest country in the world. Potentially. Except if ,as it seems, it falls to pieces that are hostile to each other and don't cooperate.. > >As a final wish: Soviet must become a member of NATO, and NATO must be tightly >bound to the UN. This could make our earth secure for thousands of years. >People that have their work in NATO don't need to worry about their jobs. >There are enough work to be done by saving our earth from possible enemies >from the space. It seems unlikely that we're the only intelligent >civilization in the universe. Visitors from the space could be just as warlike >as us, and even worse. > I don't think that the NATO is a panacea to secure the forever lasting world peace. Just because of that it was successful in winning the Cold War it won't work as a universal savior of our unrestful Earth. The powers always act as their interests and the forces of history (now the complete failure of the Communist economic system) guide them.. Sort of a Darwin theory for human societies.. As fora threat from outer space, I do like reading good sci-fi very much indeed,but regarding our understanding the physics of Nature (BTW, I'm a physics student) space travelling between stars excludes the practical possibility of making war.. I doubt that a civilisation would send spacecrafts to seek out and destroy other civilisations. A ship must travel for many,many years. The nearest star ,apartfrom ours, is four and a half light years away.. If there are other intelligent life forms then they are either too far away ( a distance of 1000 years ,although it is a flea jump on cosmical scale, means that it is extremely unlikely these civilisations have anything to do with each other. Not to mention that the Universe is a unimaginably huge hay stack.. Furthermore I believe that our technical civilisation will not last more than a couple of thousand years *at most*.( This is optimism. :) ) (A simple extrapolation of the last 1000 years..) Avante! Romantic souls, flame me! Followers of Daniken, kill me! Idealists, crucify me! >--- >Geir Egil Hauge, >student at the Institute for Informatics, University of Oslo, Norway. Miklos Path: ns-mx!uunet!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!usc!snorkelwacker.mit.edu!world!kibo From: kibo@world.std.com (James 'Kibo' Parry) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.folklore.urban,alt.fractals Subject: Re: Crop Circles. The Ickleton Mandelbrot Message-ID: <1991Aug28.030333.11865@world.std.com> Date: 28 Aug 91 03:03:33 GMT References: <1991Aug27.082106.24287@aixssc.ibm.co.uk> Organization: Kibo's Home Office (in Boston's Back Bay) Lines: 63 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:1870 alt.folklore.urban:22549 alt.fractals:1641 In article <1991Aug27.082106.24287@aixssc.ibm.co.uk> rob@aixssc.ibm.co.uk (Robert Trevelyan) writes: > The Ickleton Mandelbrot > ----------------------- > A strange formation appeared the night of August 11/12 in a > wheatfield on a hill top 10 miles south of Cambridge, England. > The was reported to be a heart-shaped formation but on closer > observation found it to be far more than any "normal" crop > circle. > > This new formation was in fact a Mandelbrot ! and was 100 yards > in length. A colleague of mine visited the site and confirmed > that the formation was in fact, as near as possible, a complete > Mandelbrot set. The large cartoid component was about 120ft across, > tangential to this was a circle of 47ft diameter and on top of this > again a 16ft circle. Attached to each side of the cardoid was three > smaller unequal circles, the size of each matching its partner on > the opposite side of the cartoid. Tiny circles also existed and > were attached to the outside of the centre ones and also on the > 47ft circle. These tiny circles were as small as 16 inches and > were attached to the main body and mirrored about the central axis. > I have viewed a computer program that creates this Mandelbrot Set > and all circles and conponents were found to be exactly placed. Actually, if it were a Mandelbrot set, it would not have "circles as small as 16 inches"--they'd go down to infinitely small, no matter how big the image is. Any area of an M-set (except the interior, the part which is usually colored black on the computer) will, if enlarged, show an infinite number of miniature M-sets (deformed to various degrees.) For instance, the "three smaller unequal circles" you mention above, if you look at a GOOD picture of a Mandelbrot set from a computer, are actually part of an INFINITE series of bubbles that are gradually decreasing in size. The entertaining thing about having them on the computer is that you can keep enlarging the image, and every time you do, you can see more detail, since the level of detail is infinite. If the one in the field really were an accurate M-set, you wouldn't be able to count how many little bubbles were around it, but it would also have microscopically fine tendrils going out all over the place, connected to smaller copies of itself... > I understand that copies of these photos are on their way to > Benoit B. Mandelbrot, a research fellow at IBM Yorktown Heights, NY. > who from work with fractal geometry and the mathematical study of > forms having a fractional dimension has termed the Mandelbrot Set. I expect he'll have a very good laugh over all this. I did. > If anyone has a Mandelbrot computer graphics program I strongly > suggest that you run it and view the end result because it is so > similar to the Ickleton Mandelbrot its unreal. It's similar in the way an octagon is similar to a circle. Next time they pull one of these pranks, they should pick a surface with infinite resolution. :-) -- James "Kibo" Parry -- ............................................................................. James "Kibo" Parry kibo@world.std.com Independent graphic designer 271 Dartmouth St. #3D (specialty: logos & corporate Boston, MA 02116 (617) 262-3922 identities) and type designer. Path: ns-mx!uunet!cbmvax!amix!vanth!jms From: jms@vanth.UUCP (Jim Shaffer) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Roswell Message-ID: Date: 27 Aug 91 14:57:51 GMT References: <368@anuurn.UUCP> Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence Lines: 38 In article <368@anuurn.UUCP> ffoire@anuurn.UUCP (Jeff Orrok) writes: >Something just occurred to me; if you *really* want to make a stab at >producing physical evidence, you should get a team of geologist/chemist >types which include interested and (more or less) "objective" individuals >and run a big soil analysis on the crash site. I don't care how many g.i.'s >you have combing a field, if there are particles that are sand-sized or >smaller, I'd be willing to bet that there would be *something* still there, You know, there's something that bothers me about these crashes. If the saucers are made out of metal as strong as it's said to be, how did it get blown apart? Shouldn't any explosion have resulted in a relatively intact saucer but a completely disintegrated crew? (Unless maybe the saucers are held together by some electromagnetic process, in which case the different components would fall apart when it stopped. But that seems like just plain poor design.) >while I'm taking the trouble to post this, I would also like to deride the >notion of aliens looking for food or other bio-stuff: anyone who is capable >of interstellar travel ought to have the food and medicine problems beat, so You would think so, especially if you buy the theory that they're doing complex genetic engineering in the underground bases. But then again, what are they doing with the abductees? Maybe we're dealing with an entire demented species, which put all their energy into one scientific area but hasn't made the necessary breakthroughs in others. >"The genius of you Americans is that you never make clear-cut stupid moves, >only complicated stupid moves which make us wonder at the possibility that >there may be something to them which we are missing." -- Gamal Abdel Nasser Sounds like the state of UFOlogy today! No matter how ridiculous the theory coming from the likes of Lear or Bennewitz, there always seems to be *something* which is just possible enough to stick in my mind for years to come. The further the UFO, conspiracy, and free energy fields overlap, the worse this gets. -- uunet!cbmvax!amix!vanth!jms Path: ns-mx!uunet!spool.mu.edu!mixcom!jjwwjj From: jjwwjj@mixcom.COM (Robotic Systems) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: GREAT PYRAMID & DOLLAR BILL Message-ID: <1531@mixcom.COM> Date: 28 Aug 91 13:53:32 GMT Distribution: usa Organization: Milwaukee Information eXchange (Public access Usenet, Email) Lines: 11 Recently, in this newsgroup, there were discussions about the pyramids and how maybe they were built by aliens. There has also been discussion about how the US government is working with aliens. Does the pyramid on the back of the dollar bill show a connection between these two discussions? Inquiring minds want to know! -- =============================================================================== Clint Laskowski Post Office Box 552, Cudahy, Wisconsin 53110-0552 ROBOTIC SYSTEMS INTERNET: robots@mixcom.com VOICE: (414) 769-9332 =============================================================================== Path: ns-mx!uunet!convex!swarren From: swarren@convex.com (Steve Warren) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy Subject: Re: SIGHTING REPORT 3: Australia Message-ID: <1991Aug28.151300.690@convex.com> Date: 28 Aug 91 15:13:00 GMT References: <91238.144128SML108@psuvm.psu.edu> <1991Aug27.160851.25720@convex.com> <91239.195935SML108@psuvm.psu.edu> Sender: usenet@convex.com (news access account) Organization: CONVEX Computer Corporation, Richardson, Tx., USA Lines: 25 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:1873 alt.conspiracy:6771 Nntp-Posting-Host: neptune.convex.com In article <91239.195935SML108@psuvm.psu.edu> SML108@psuvm.psu.edu (Scott the Great) writes: [...] >futility that would be upon us by the late '80's. Did Lindsey make up all >his blather from the Apocrypha or was it mostly from Revelations? After all, >the Apocrypha are probably the writings of Satan in the eyes of an evangelist, Actually, "apocryphal writings in the Bible" is an oxymoron. ;^) What I *meant* to say was apocolyptic (as in apocolypse now). >Though come to think of it, you may be right, there may have been YET another >Schick-Sun Classic epic devoted to Nostrodamus. Anyone out there remember the >details? The highlight of the whole thing was the Blue Turban's way cool >war room where he launched his attack on "The New City "=New York City... I remember this. Wasn't Orson Wells the narrator? Actually I wasn't commenting on the film. In your post you appeared to be stating that Lindsey's book was a Nostradamus interpretation. Now I see that you were just listing it in a series of objections to the film. My mistake. -- _. --Steve ._||__ Warren v\ *| V Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!linac!unixhub!slacvm!waugh From: WAUGH@SLACVM.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: GREAT PYRAMID & DOLLAR BILL Message-ID: <91240.081756WAUGH@SLACVM.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> Date: 28 Aug 91 16:17:56 GMT References: <1531@mixcom.COM> Distribution: usa Organization: Stanford Linear Accelerator Center Lines: 12 In article <1531@mixcom.COM>, jjwwjj@mixcom.COM (Robotic Systems) says: > >Recently, in this newsgroup, there were discussions about the pyramids >and how maybe they were built by aliens. There has also been discussion >about how the US government is working with aliens. Does the pyramid >on the back of the dollar bill show a connection between these two >discussions? Inquiring minds want to know! > Only if the aliens are Freemasons. Brian Waugh | "The deuce you say." WAUGH@SLACVM.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU | Buckaroo Banzai Path: ns-mx!uunet!wupost!uwm.edu!linac!att!att!fang!tarpit!bilver!dona From: dona@bilver.uucp (Don Allen) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: COLUMBIAN ALIENS AND BUSH Message-ID: <1991Aug28.004701.7013@bilver.uucp> Date: 28 Aug 91 00:47:01 GMT References: <1510@mixcom.COM> Distribution: usa Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL Lines: 55 In article <1510@mixcom.COM> jjwwjj@mixcom.COM (Robotic Systems) writes: >I heard on the news today that a famer in Columbia was abducted and had >an implant placed in his shoulder. He says he has a message for >President Bush. Did anyone else hear this? Does anyone know more? > >Also, I too have noticed more advertising which includes references to >aliens and UFOs. I am skeptical, but I've got to admit, this is starting >to get scary! Or, are UFOs just becoming vouge? > >Any info would be appreicated. Please post so all can enjoy! > > The commercials are getting slicker too.. In one, a well known Jeans commercials...it starts out with something like "Have you seen the EBE's?" and then goes right into the rest of the commercial without elaborating further.. A well known battery maker is putting out the older couple in front of a vast pasture, where they are there ostensibly to capture UFO's on film (message - make sure you got the BEST battery to do it)... "Where's Wilbur?" A well known Cereal maker...puts out a real fast intro blurb "The UFO's have landed"..goes right into the rest of the commercial without any further explanation.. A HARDEES commercial for their burgers...the car driving off in the last few frames of the commercial...has "UFO" on NEVADA license plates... These are just a FEW...I predict that they are going to get more involved and slicker in the next few months :-) Don > >-- >=============================================================================== >Clint Laskowski Post Office Box 552, Cudahy, Wisconsin 53110-0552 >ROBOTIC SYSTEMS INTERNET: robots@mixcom.com VOICE: (414) 769-9332 >=============================================================================== -- -* Don Allen *- InterNet: dona@bilver.UUCP // Amiga..for the best of us. USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-) UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!vicstoy!dona KING George Bush?? Just say NO! UFO's in commercials....is the GOVT getting us ready for OCTOBER of 1992? Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!samsung!know!mips2!bull.bull.fr!corton!mcsun!news.funet.fi!sunic!kullmar!compuram!pgd From: pgd@compuram.bbt.se Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Answer to how life got started on Earth. Message-ID: <1991Aug23.085344.8024@compuram.bbt.se> Date: 23 Aug 91 08:53:44 GMT References: <91234.002702DOCTORJ@SLACVM.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> Lines: 18 X-Comment-To: DOCTORJ@SLACVM.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU In article <91234.002702DOCTORJ@SLACVM.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> DOCTORJ@SLACVM.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU (Jon J Thaler) writes: >Anti-evolutionists are fond of making this statement, but they are never >able to present any evidence which survives serious scrutiny. What >evidence do you have, Mr Lindqvist? Evolutionists are fond of making this statement, but when confronted with the evidence, they just ignore it. In any case, that discussion does not belong to this newsgroup. I only say this: You can lead a horse to the water, but you cannot make him drink. -- -- Per Lindqvist Internet: pgd@compuram.bbt.se Fidonet: Per Lindqvist @ 2:201/332 Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!qt.cs.utexas.edu!yale.edu!cmcl2!panix!jsv From: jsv@panix.com (Jason Verch) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: GREAT PYRAMID & DOLLAR BILL Message-ID: <1991Aug28.204950.17573@panix.com> Date: 28 Aug 91 20:49:50 GMT References: <1531@mixcom.COM> Distribution: usa Organization: PANIX - Public Access Unix Systems of NY Lines: 16 In article <1531@mixcom.COM> jjwwjj@mixcom.COM (Robotic Systems) writes: >Recently, in this newsgroup, there were discussions about the pyramids >and how maybe they were built by aliens. There has also been discussion >about how the US government is working with aliens. Does the pyramid >on the back of the dollar bill show a connection between these two >discussions? Inquiring minds want to know! > Nope, sorry but the pyramid is not the Great Pyramid, it is a pyramid with an eye above it, it is a symbol of Freemasonry which is what most of the symbols on the bill are derived from, other examples - 'E pluribus unum' is a Masonic motto, the thirty-two feathers in the eagles right wing are the 32 earned rites of Freemasonry and the 33 on the left wing represent the earned rites plus the 1 honorary degree. The 9 tail feathers represent the 9 degrees of the York Rite. Many more, not alien.. but still some strange stuff! Wanna know more just ask.. Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!mips!apple!netcomsv!bryanw From: bryanw@netcom.COM (Bryan Woodworth) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Marrs & End of world in 1997? computers tool of Satan? Message-ID: <1991Aug29.020039.29782@netcom.COM> Date: 29 Aug 91 02:00:39 GMT Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest) Lines: 13 A fellow at work told me of an author by the surname Marrs who says that computers will become the device of the devil; that things bad will start happening about 1997; that the devil will take the form of a human and do miraculous things, then doublecross humankind and cause armageddon. Anyone know more about this? About books by Marrs? I am intrigued by all this. nks. : -- Bryan Woodworth Mail: bryanw@netcom.COM Netcom - Online Communication Services San Jose, CA Path: ns-mx!uunet!iggy.GW.Vitalink.COM!pacbell.com!att!cbnewse!cbnewsd!press2 From: press2@cbnewsd.att.com (barry.o.olson) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: John Keele Keywords: where is he? Message-ID: <1991Aug29.031107.26386@cbnewsd.att.com> Date: 29 Aug 91 03:11:07 GMT Distribution: na Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories Lines: 11 Anyone know what happened to John Keele(ufo investigator)? The last book I read of his was in early '70's called the _mothman prophecies_. The book wasn't about prophecy that I can remember but these creatures he encountered with the appearance of half man half moth, and they stunk~~~~ Also, what of reports on creatures that have an odor of burning sulfer(ceatures from hell?). Thanks, barry olson Path: ns-mx!uunet!stanford.edu!mcnc!taco!eos.ncsu.edu!hsashbau From: hsashbau@eos.ncsu.edu (HENRY S ASHBAUGH) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy Subject: Re: SIGHTING REPORT 3: Australia Message-ID: <1991Aug29.023841.4514@ncsu.edu> Date: 29 Aug 91 02:38:41 GMT References: <1991Aug23.035544.17652@bilver.uucp> <91239.195935SML108@psuvm.psu.edu> Sender: news@ncsu.edu (USENET News System) Reply-To: hsashbau@eos.ncsu.edu (HENRY S ASHBAUGH) Organization: Project EOS - North Carolina State University Lines: 3 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:1880 alt.conspiracy:6778 Steve Warren has appearently forgotten that Nostrodamus was a Christrian himself. For someone who isn't a prophet of God, he sure has a lot of ideas about how his visions are supposed to be recieved. Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!moe.ksu.ksu.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!wupost!emory!att!att!cbnewsd!press2 From: press2@cbnewsd.att.com (barry.o.olson) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: COLUMBIAN ALIENS AND BUSH Message-ID: <1991Aug29.042014.28238@cbnewsd.att.com> Date: 29 Aug 91 04:20:14 GMT References: <1510@mixcom.COM> <1991Aug26.212641.29603@pmafire.inel.gov> Distribution: na Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories Lines: 11 Hello, It's obvious that PR advertizers employ all means of determining what the latest "catch sequence" is rolling around. Today it's ET's. Besides, who could contact all these ad people to start a softening campaign for public consumption? In conclusion, ad agencies get paid for results, what sells? barry olson Path: ns-mx!uunet!iggy.GW.Vitalink.COM!pacbell.com!att!rutgers!cbmvax!amix!vanth!jms From: jms@vanth.UUCP (Jim Shaffer) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: ALIENS: THE BIG _LIE_ !!! Message-ID: Date: 28 Aug 91 14:40:12 GMT References: <370@anuurn.UUCP> Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence Lines: 15 In article <370@anuurn.UUCP> ffoire@anuurn.UUCP (Jeff Orrok) writes: > >WOAH! waitaminit!! Close Encounters was put out in the late seventies >(wasnt it 78?) A couple of articles back, I read that Bentwater happened at >the end of 1980. Kill the rumor! Oops! You're absolutely right. I obviously wasn't thinking. Still, *someone* told me *sometime* that the spaceships in CETK were based on *something*. I'm fairly sure that they said Bentwaters, as a matter of fact. I don't know why I didn't catch the fallacy a lot sooner. -- uunet!cbmvax!amix!vanth!jms 72750.2335@compuserve.com Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!lll-winken!iggy.GW.Vitalink.COM!widener!gvlf3.gvl.unisys.com!hpwisf1.isf.unisys.com!rubio From: rubio@ISF.Unisys.COM (Stuart Rubio) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: COLUMBIAN ALIENS AND BUSH Summary: The difference between being laughed at and laughed with Message-ID: <1991Aug29.030042.28562@ISF.Unisys.COM> Date: 29 Aug 91 03:00:42 GMT References: <1510@mixcom.COM> <1991Aug26.212641.29603@pmafire.inel.gov> Sender: usenet@ISF.Unisys.COM Distribution: usa Organization: ^ Lines: 57 Originator: rubio@hpwisf1.isf.unisys.com Nntp-Posting-Host: hpwisf1.isf.unisys.com In article <1991Aug26.212641.29603@pmafire.inel.gov> jeffl@servprod.inel.gov (Jeff Later) writes: >In article <1510@mixcom.COM> jjwwjj@mixcom.COM (Robotic Systems) writes: > >>Also, I too have noticed more advertising which includes references to >>aliens and UFOs. I am skeptical, but I've got to admit, this is starting >>to get scary! Or, are UFOs just becoming vouge? Vouge...Since when does anyone really believe won avenue says in a merchandizing ad? >Someone else mentioned a while back about there being a noticeable increase >in the amount of advertising on television which used "aliens and UFO's" >as props or "themes". I guess I just dismissed this at first, and then last >night caught the tale end of a "Duracell?" battery commercial using the "UFO" >theme. I was kind of surprised! In fact, I think part of the "plot" of >the ad involved a parents son being "abducted"? Anyone else catch this ad? Cleverly done, yes?? But, why were you surprised by the existance of a comical ad on network TV? Afterall, what else do they put on TV? >Is it greater awareness on the public's part, or ARE we >being "conditioned"??? Neither..They are trying to sell their product. They care less for the informational content of the ad, and more for the fact that it stuck in your mind. >I find that the more research and reading I do >regarding this subject, the more difficult it becomes to stay "objective" >about the topic! Most people with no logical reasoning capabilities would have this problem. Objectivity is not something taught in college, which is not difficult to understand when you look at the quality of the product of our educational system over the past twenty years. Tell me, if you fall down in the street, making a fool of yourself when you try to get up, causing the crowd to laugh at you, are you being laughed at by the crowd you have attracted, or are they laughing with you? When advertizers use a subject that they do not understand, nor care anything about, they are pointing their finger at you, laughing all the way to the bank at those who remember their ad long enough to buy their product. Are you part of the great unwashed, as they believe you to be??? It really is time the public awakened to the fact that they are the butt of the jokes made by politicians, through their indifference, advertizers, in their disregard for the intelligence of their audience, the TV industry, in general, since they show NO collective will to show the public reality, and every clown with a doctorate, who is looking for an easy buck, through Congress, to push his pet project. Peace and long life, Stuart Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!lll-winken!iggy.GW.Vitalink.COM!widener!gvlf3.gvl.unisys.com!hpwisf1.isf.unisys.com!rubio From: rubio@ISF.Unisys.COM (Stuart Rubio) Newsgroups: soc.culture.soviet,alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: HELPING THE SOVIET ECONOMY+ space travel and NATO Message-ID: <1991Aug29.034527.28824@ISF.Unisys.COM> Date: 29 Aug 91 03:45:27 GMT References: <91240.022605SAPT99@LIVERPOOL.AC.UK> Sender: usenet@ISF.Unisys.COM Organization: ^ Lines: 134 Xref: ns-mx soc.culture.soviet:1590 alt.alien.visitors:1884 Originator: rubio@hpwisf1.isf.unisys.com Nntp-Posting-Host: hpwisf1.isf.unisys.com In article <91240.022605SAPT99@LIVERPOOL.AC.UK> SAPT99@LIVERPOOL.AC.UK writes: >In article , >geirha@ifi.uio.no (Geir Egil Hauge) says: >> >>A very actual question now is: How can we help Soviet to get their ecomomy up >>from the ditch? A better question to ask might be "should we interfere, by giving them anything at all. Perhaps, it is in their own best interest to work out their own problems by themselves. They seem to be doing quite well so far. Let their people decide what it is they want from a government that has abused them for seventy years, before you force them into accepting the standards of the West to accomplish what theseek. >>- Is it a solution to give them food? >>- Is it a solution to lend them much money? Exactly the point. You do not know what would work as a solution. So, leave them alone long enough to make those decisions for themselves. >>No, I don't think so. It would make Soviet a third world country, and we have >>already helped the third world countries in beeing third world countries for a >>pretty long time. Give me a break. The Soviet Union was a conglomerate of nations force to live under third world conditions. It will take a lot of work to undo what Communism has done on this planet. Russia is a third world nation in all capacities, except its nuclear arsenal. Is it not time that they were allowed, as a people, the chance to develop and mature as a nation?? >That saying with the fish or fishing rod you give to a hungry >man is very true. The third world got fish .. The Soviet Union is the > richest country in the world. Potentially. Really? The Soviet Union WAS a politically manufactured entity, held together by brute force, in the worst sense of the term. As the U.S.S.R., the people had NO wealth, what-so-ever. Now, for the first time in this century, the Russian PEOPLE have the opportunity to have some of that POTENTIAL wealthy, in forms that will really do them some good. It is time for them to decide that THAT IS what THEY want. The decision should not be forced on them by the dictators in a single political party, nor by well-intended by-standers, who think they know more about Russians than Russians. >Except if ,as it seems, it falls to pieces that are hostile to each other >and don't cooperate.. Why can they not develop into a number of wealthy small countries, if that is what their populations see as desirable? Why should they be forced to stay a conglomerate, if that brings them only discontentedness?? >>As a final wish: Soviet must become a member of NATO, and NATO must be tightly >>bound to the UN. This could make our earth secure for thousands of years. Oh, please, IF the need for NATO, the need to protect the Western alliance from the Soviet Union, is gone, which I personally do not see, as yet, then there will ultimately be no need for NATO. It is a military organization, yet a politically elected body. And, the last ones who wanted their power to last a Thousand Years were called NAZIs. No one seemed to like them very much, after a short while, much less than their projected thousand years. >>People that have their work in NATO don't need to worry about their jobs. >>There are enough work to be done by saving our earth from possible enemies >>from the space. What bug-eyed monsters are you seeing under your bed at night? I sleep perfectly well, thank you. Besides, human technology would be helpless against any technology capable of reaching across the stars to us. You had better pray that those potemtial aliens are friendly, and non- interfering, less they prey on you... >>It seems unlikely that we're the only intelligent >>civilization in the universe. Visitors from the space could be just as warlike >>as us, and even worse. As I said, if this is the case, how much hope would we have of preventing invading hordes from reaching us? We can not even convince ourselves to cooperate long enough to get our collective rears off this mudball of a planet. If anyone ever actually make formal contact with us, I doubt that our fragile egos, and more fragile institutions, will survive it. >I don't think that the NATO is a panacea to secure the forever lasting >world peace. Just because of that it was successful in winning the Cold War >it won't work as a universal savior of our unrestful Earth. The powers >always act as their interests and the forces of history (now the complete >failure of the Communist economic system) guide them.. Sort of a Darwin >theory for human societies.. > > As fora threat from outer space, I do like reading good sci-fi very >much indeed,but regarding our understanding the physics of Nature >(BTW, I'm a physics student) space travelling between stars excludes >the practical possibility of making war.. Please, let us not get too caught up with our own egotism over the petty limits of our supposed knowledge of the workings of cosmic powers, or superimpose our own limited knowledge on what other intelligences might produce in the universe. Remember, please, the first step to wisdom is to admit that we do not know all. The natural counterpart to that state- ment is obviously that there is much that I do not understand. We hold so few of the Cosmic Secrets of nature, it would not be wise to praise too loudly what we "know". >I doubt that a civilisation >would send spacecrafts to seek out and destroy other civilisations. >A ship must travel for many,many years. The nearest star ,apartfrom >ours, is four and a half light years away.. If there are other >intelligent life forms then they are either too far away ( a distance ------------ (?) >of 1000 years ,although it is a flea jump on cosmical scale, means >that it is extremely unlikely these civilisations have anything to do >with each other. Not to mention that the Universe is a unimaginably >huge hay stack.. Furthermore I believe that our technical civilisation >will not last more than a couple of thousand years *at most*.( This is > optimism. :) ) >(A simple extrapolation of the last 1000 years..) Boy, don't you just love it when logic is applied to the search for a solution to a question??? Where did you learn to predict the future by assumptions made about the past. I suggest you go back to your professors and ask them about jumping out over an abyss, since you have just walked the last thousand miles without crossing the Grand Canyon before this. Otherwise, I would like to ask you about the Stock Market, a number of horse races, and a couple of loteries. If you think you are good enough to predict the future of humanity, let me have the benefit of your wisdom on these less-important matters, that I am sure are beneath your infinite knowledge. It sure would hold my attention. Peace and long life, Stuart Path: ns-mx!uunet!decwrl!pa.dec.com!decabo.enet.dec.com!maximo!jkrump From: jkrump@maximo.enet.dec.com (John Krumpotick) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: John Keele Keywords: where is he? Message-ID: <449@decabo.enet.dec.com> Date: 29 Aug 91 04:44:57 GMT References: <1991Aug29.031107.26386@cbnewsd.att.com> Sender: news@decabo.enet.dec.com Reply-To: jkrump@maximo.enet.dec.com (John Krumpotick) Distribution: na Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation Lines: 1 He now has a monthly column in FATE magazine. Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!ut-emx!ibmchs!auschs!awdprime!woofer.Berkeley.EDU!craigb From: craigb@woofer.austin.ibm.com (Craig Becker) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: has there been a change in attitude amongst the grays? Message-ID: <10531@awdprime.UUCP> Date: 29 Aug 91 13:20:37 GMT Sender: news@awdprime.UUCP Reply-To: craigb@awdprime.austin.ibm.com Organization: IBM Object Technology Products Lines: 22 I'm not particularly well-read on the subject of UFOs etc (am currently reading _Communion_ and Fiore's _Encounters_ (which is rather shoddy, IMHO)), but something I wonder about: it seems that, over the years, people's reports on alien motivations (esp. the gray's) have become more and more sinister. I can't point to any specific examples to back this up, but there does seem to be a dichotomy amongst abduction reports: some people claim to have been helped/healed, others claim they were a hair's-breadth from being used as food. Anyone care to comment on this? Craig ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- "I mean, foreign agent or no, Craig Becker, Object Technology Products -- -- I've done good work for the Internet: craigb@ausvm1.vnet.ibm.com -- -- city. I never compromised my Austin: craigb@woofer.austin.ibm.com -- -- integrity, except a few times." VNET: CRAIGB at AUSVM1 -- ---------------------- Lt. Okking ------------------------------------------- -- off 808/1K-020 zip 3008 ph (512) 823-1756 tl 793-1756 hm (512) 346-5397 -- -- IBM Personal Systems Programming, 11400 Burnet Road, Austin, TX, 78759 -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Path: ns-mx!uunet!decwrl!pa.dec.com!shodha.enet.dec.com!timpson From: timpson@shodha.enet.dec.com (Steve Timpson) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Marrs & End of world in 1997? computers tool of Satan? Message-ID: <3946@shodha.enet.dec.com> Date: 29 Aug 91 14:09:03 GMT Sender: news@shodha.enet.dec.com Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation Lines: 43 In article <1991Aug29.020039.29782@netcom.COM>, bryanw@netcom.COM (Bryan Woodworth) writes... >A fellow at work told me of an author by the surname Marrs who says that >computers will become the device of the devil; that things bad will start >happening about 1997; that the devil will take the form of a human and do >miraculous things, then doublecross humankind and cause armageddon. > >Anyone know more about this? About books by Marrs? I am intrigued by all >this. > >nks. >: >-- >Bryan Woodworth Mail: bryanw@netcom.COM >Netcom - Online Communication Services San Jose, CA No this is not quite correct: In 1997 on August 28th a Super computer called Skynet will become self aware. Skynet being in control of all of the US weapons systems will decide the fate of the Human race in a micro second and launch an attack on the USSR. 3 billion people will die in the first holocust after which skynet with the help of it machanicl minions will begin the extermination of all those left. A leader of the Humans will arise by the name of John Conner who will teach the humans to fight back. Skynet on the verge of destruction will send a T101 terminator cyborg back in time to kill John Conners mother Sarah. Also Skynet will send a T1000 Terminator to kill John Conner at age twelve should the first Terminator fail. John Conner uncovers this plot and sends one of his fighters back in time to prevent the T101 from acomplishing its task. This freedom fighter gets John Conners mother pregnant and turns out to be Johns father. At the same time John send a reprogramed T101 terminator to protect the 12 year old John from the T1000. In other words nks get a life and take this discussion to alt.bullshit. Steve Path: ns-mx!uunet!tellab5!jcj From: jcj@tellab3.tellabs.com (jcj) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Pseudosurvey Message-ID: <7089@tellab5.tellabs.com> Date: 29 Aug 91 18:00:13 GMT Sender: news@Tellabs.COM Distribution: na Organization: Hotel California Lines: 17 Originator: jcj@tellab3 Having been "lurking" for a few weeks, I would really like to know how many of you people posting these "grays" articles actually believe that there's a govt-ET conspiracy to stop valid data on this sort of stuff. I don't mean to flame or ridicule anyone, but you gotta admit some of this stuff is way out there. My background (if you care): Bachelors in Astro from Northwestern U. (Yes, I knew Dr. Hynek). Agnostic about the little guys... -- jcj@tellabs.com "Pressure drop! Pressure gonna drop on you." ~Frank "Toots" Hibbard Path: ns-mx!uunet!convex!swarren From: swarren@convex.com (Steve Warren) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Pseudosurvey Message-ID: <1991Aug29.215649.29935@convex.com> Date: 29 Aug 91 21:56:49 GMT References: <7089@tellab5.tellabs.com> Sender: usenet@convex.com (news access account) Distribution: na Organization: CONVEX Computer Corporation, Richardson, Tx., USA Lines: 68 Nntp-Posting-Host: neptune.convex.com In article <7089@tellab5.tellabs.com> jcj@tellab3.tellabs.com (jcj) writes: > > Having been "lurking" for a few weeks, I would really like to > know how many of you people posting these "grays" articles > actually believe that there's a govt-ET conspiracy to stop > valid data on this sort of stuff. I don't mean to flame or Hmm, well, I haven't been posting any gray articles. That stuff is so far out, and it just sits there with all these outrageous claims and no real support that I just read it and groan. If (emphasis on if) any one of these files contained a grain of truth in it, there would be no way for us (sitting each of us at our respective terminals) to be able to seperate the one grain of truth from all the paranoia and hype and various ramblings of emotionally unstable individuals. Now, if you are the author of one of these epistles, don't automatically assume that I am calling you emotionally unstable. I'm not. I'm just saying that those of us looking on from the outside have no way of knowing who is unstable and who isn't. At the same time, if you spend any time at all researching on the subject, you will soon become convinced that there *is* something going on that is not adequately explained by the blythe cliches offered up by the confirmed skeptics. Whether or not all of this is really explained by the ET hypothesis is another question altogether. I wonder if the government really knows what this is at all. Perhaps after investigating they found that they could not fully identify whatever these things are (that we have been calling ETs). But they found that the 'ETs' continued to buzz their bases and play games with AF craft, and these exotic enigmas could not be successfully engaged or attacked. Perhaps, faced with something they could not explain or defeat, they simply decided that this was something that should be suppressed. "We can't let our citizens realise that there are things flying around out there that can do as they please, and we can't touch them - they'd be panicked! They would loose faith in the capabilities of their armed forces! No - better to keep it a secret while we try to figure out a way to combat these things." And all the bizarre stories that leak out are the horrible perversions of the real truth. The real truth is not that we are being invaded, but that there is something really weird living on the same planet as us (maybe always has been here), but you can't grab it and hold it. It always has a way of slipping away, like a leprechaun or something. And the military, having obtained proof that the weird exists (because the advanced surveillance practices of the military make it difficult for anything to happen on this planet without them realising it), but not being able to catch them or effectively attack them, has decided that no one must find out about this terribly destabilizing fact of life. There are so many military personel who know about parts of the mystery that it is getting harder and harder to keep it all secret. But what happens is that a secret that gets whispered in dark places to paranoid people comes out bearing little resemblence to the reality that it originally reflected. Understand, I'm not claiming to have any special knowledge on this subject. This is pure speculation on my part after reading several good books by serious researchers of this subject and coming to my own conclusions. As speculation, it stands not as my "current belief," but as my best "current guess," based on what I have read. Regards, -- _. --Steve ._||__ Warren v\ *| V Path: ns-mx!uunet!world!kibo From: kibo@world.std.com (James 'Kibo' Parry) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.slack,alt.conspiracy Subject: Re: Pseudosurvey Message-ID: <1991Aug30.011922.5972@world.std.com> Date: 30 Aug 91 01:19:22 GMT References: <7089@tellab5.tellabs.com> Distribution: na Organization: Kibo's Home Office (in Boston's Back Bay) Lines: 21 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:1890 alt.slack:1113 alt.conspiracy:6787 In article <7089@tellab5.tellabs.com> jcj@tellab3.tellabs.com (jcj) writes: > Having been "lurking" for a few weeks, I would really like to > know how many of you people posting these "grays" articles > actually believe that there's a govt-ET conspiracy to stop > valid data on this sort of stuff. It's so incredibly OBVIOUS even a preclear like me can SENSE it-- If there WEREN'T a HUGE GOV'T CONSPIRACY to prevent it, people would be posting INTELLIGIBLE FACTS! It's so obvious, it makes my feet spin. -- Kibo (a Neutral Grey) -- ............................................................................. James "Kibo" Parry kibo@world.std.com Independent graphic designer 271 Dartmouth St. #3D (specialty: logos & corporate Boston, MA 02116 (617) 262-3922 identities) and type designer. Path: ns-mx!uunet!world!kibo From: kibo@world.std.com (James 'Kibo' Parry) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy Subject: Re: Pseudosurvey Message-ID: <1991Aug30.012727.6378@world.std.com> Date: 30 Aug 91 01:27:27 GMT References: <7089@tellab5.tellabs.com> <1991Aug29.215649.29935@convex.com> Distribution: na Organization: Kibo's Home Office (in Boston's Back Bay) Lines: 49 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:1891 alt.conspiracy:6788 In article <1991Aug29.215649.29935@convex.com> you write: >Hmm, well, I haven't been posting any gray articles. That stuff is so far >out, and it just sits there with all these outrageous claims and no real >support that I just read it and groan. If (emphasis on if) any one of these >files contained a grain of truth in it, there would be no way for us (sitting >each of us at our respective terminals) to be able to seperate the one grain >of truth from all the paranoia and hype and various ramblings of emotionally >unstable individuals. > >Now, if you are the author of one of these epistles, don't automatically >assume that I am calling you emotionally unstable. I'm not. I'm just saying >that those of us looking on from the outside have no way of knowing who is >unstable and who isn't. I'M UNSTABLE!!! I'M UNSTABLE!!!!! LA LA LA LA LA!!! And remember, be sorry for those who are "Mentally Stable". The Conspiracy wants you to be Stable and Normal and Correct. >At the same time, if you spend any time at all researching on the subject, you >will soon become convinced that there *is* something going on that is not >adequately explained by the blythe cliches offered up by the confirmed >skeptics. That's why the BEST ufo-related writings are generated by people who've done NO research! > _. >--Steve ._||__ > Warren v\ *| > V AAAAAAAIIIIIEEEE!!! AN ASCII STATE!!! Your mind is obviously under control of the CONSPIRACY! I would turn you in to alt.fan.warlord, but ASCII states must be as tall as this sign--> +-------+ to go in that group. | SIGN! | +-------+ | | -| |- -- Kibo, spewer of post-bullda truths -- ............................................................................. James "Kibo" Parry kibo@world.std.com Independent graphic designer 271 Dartmouth St. #3D (specialty: logos & corporate Boston, MA 02116 (617) 262-3922 identities) and type designer. Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!rpi!uwm.edu!linac!att!att!fang!tarpit!bilver!dona From: dona@bilver.uucp (Don Allen) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Who's seen a 'Grey' ? Keywords: anyone in this newsgroup? Message-ID: <1991Aug30.004844.10056@bilver.uucp> Date: 30 Aug 91 00:48:44 GMT References: <1991Aug20.054043.20345@cbnewse.cb.att.com> Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL Lines: 18 In article axolotl@socs.uts.edu.au writes: >sara@nstar.rn.com (Sara Gordon) writes: >this because the important people won't listen. > >(The book was _Alien [?]_ by [?] Good.) I believe the book you are referring to is called "Alien Liason", by Timothy Good. Don -- -* Don Allen *- InterNet: dona@bilver.UUCP // Amiga..for the best of us. USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-) UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!vicstoy!dona KING George Bush?? Just say NO! UFO's in commercials....is the GOVT getting us ready for OCTOBER of 1992? Path: ns-mx!uunet!decwrl!pa.dec.com!nntpd.lkg.dec.com!vcsesu.enet.dec.com!cook From: cook@vcsesu.enet.dec.com (Peter R. Cook) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy Subject: Re: FILE: Whitley Strieber FAREWELL Letter Message-ID: <26796@kdb.lkg.dec.com> Date: 29 Aug 91 12:55:40 GMT Sender: news@kdb.lkg.dec.com Followup-To: alt.alien.visitors Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation Lines: 54 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:1893 alt.conspiracy:6790 In article <1991Aug25.011112.12295@bilver.uucp>, dona@bilver.uucp (Don Allen) writes... > Like the related books and the Communion groups, it had a definite and > finite purpose. What, money? Publicity? Strieber is an ass, a fake, and a wart on the face of the UFO community. >* I am not a government agent. There is some truth to the >allegations that I have contact within the U.S. military and the >government. I will not deny this. But all of my activities are >pointed in one direction: disclosure. Of course he isn't. Government agents could care less about making money and attracting publicity for themselves. >* I am not a skinflint. The Communion Foundation has given away >a lot of money, and I have tried hard to be financially generous >in every way possible, and possess the records to prove it. Even >Budd Hopkins has been generously treated, and I have the canceled >checks to prove this. Bullshit. >* The "white paper" Mr. Hopkins allegedly produced about me is a >tissue of intentional distortions designed to portray me in a >falsely negative light. But his apparent sending of this paper >to dozens of UFO investigators, in an effort to discredit me, was >effective. Such people are eager to believe negative information >about those more successful than they. Jealousy is an illness, >and it is highly contagious, and the UFO community is sick to >death with it. Oh, poor Whitley. Mad because Hopkins, one of the most noted and respected researchers in the community showed everyone what you really are? >* There exist no legitimate audio tapes of me admitting to being >an alien, a government agent, a sexual pervert, or the >camp-follower of little grey men from Zeta Reticuli. I have >never said anything of the kind. These tapes are no doubt the >creations of people who have been playing games in a sound room. >If you want to know what I think, read my books. I have. I think you're an idiot and a buffoon. Peter R. Cook | Disclaimer: "Quoth the Raven, eat my shorts man!" Digital Equip. Corp. +-------------------------------------------------- Marlboro, MA. | "1984 has past, forget about Big Brother, welcome 508-467-6936 | to the 90's where the government's your mother!" ~ The opinions expressed above are the author's only and do not reflect the ~ ~ opinions or anything else of Digital Equipment Corporation. ~ Path: ns-mx!uunet!convex!swarren From: swarren@convex.com (Steve Warren) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy Subject: Re: Pseudosurvey Message-ID: <1991Aug30.153413.29631@convex.com> Date: 30 Aug 91 15:34:13 GMT References: <7089@tellab5.tellabs.com> <1991Aug29.215649.29935@convex.com> <1991Aug30.012727.6378@world.std.com> Sender: usenet@convex.com (news access account) Distribution: na Organization: CONVEX Computer Corporation, Richardson, Tx., USA Lines: 10 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:1894 alt.conspiracy:6791 Nntp-Posting-Host: neptune.convex.com In article <1991Aug30.012727.6378@world.std.com> kibo@world.std.com (James 'Kibo' Parry) writes: >That's why the BEST ufo-related writings are generated by people who've >done NO research! Best exemplified by yourself, I'm sure. -- _. --Steve ._||__ Warren v\ *| V Path: ns-mx!uunet!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!sdd.hp.com!apollo!mcn From: mcn@apollo.hp.com (Michael McNulty) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: For those of you in Boston Message-ID: <1991Aug30.153920.18653@apollo.hp.com> Date: 30 Aug 91 15:39:20 GMT Sender: netnews@apollo.hp.com (USENET posting account) Organization: Hewlett-Packard Company, Apollo Division - Chelmsford, MA Lines: 24 Nntp-Posting-Host: roddy.ch.apollo.hp.com Hi, I just saw the following note in "The Boston Globe": "On Aug. 30, the Brattle will be host to the world premiere of (turn on the 'Twilight Zone' theme) 'Contact UFO - Alien Abductions,' a feature-length videotape about alien sightings and human eyewitnesses." The Brattle Theater is in Harvard Square. The times for the shows are listed as Friday at 4:30, 6:15, 8:00, and 9:40 and Saturday and Sunday at 2:30 only. It doesn't say whether the film is only being shown this weekend or not. I don't know, but I assume that it will eventually make its way to all the big cities, college cities, or art houses (if it hasn't already). If I can get a schedule for when it's appearing elsewhere, I'll post it. I know nothing about this film. Does anyone else? I do intend to see it over the weekend, so if it seems at all interesting, I'll post something about it. Mike Path: ns-mx!uunet!decwrl!pa.dec.com!nntpd.lkg.dec.com!engage.pko.dec.com!verga.enet.dec.com!stanley From: stanley@verga.enet.dec.com Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Pseudosurvey Message-ID: <1991Aug30.144813.2606@engage.pko.dec.com> Date: 30 Aug 91 16:13:06 GMT Sender: newsdaemon@engage.pko.dec.com (USENET News Daemon) Distribution: na Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation Lines: 11 In article <1991Aug29.215649.29935@convex.com>, swarren@convex.com (Steve Warren) writes... I agree with your assessment, Steve. --- Mary Stanley (INTERNET,UUCP) stanley@verga.enet.dec.com (UUCP) ...!decwrl!verga.enet!stanley (INTERNET) stanley%verga.enet@decwrl.dec.com --- Path: ns-mx!uunet!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!sdd.hp.com!hp-pcd!hp-vcd!kevinc From: kevinc@hp-vcd.HP.COM (Kevin Cyrus) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Marrs & End of world in 1997? computers tool of Satan? Message-ID: <12790005@hp-vcd.HP.COM> Date: 30 Aug 91 16:20:18 GMT References: <1991Aug29.020039.29782@netcom.COM> Organization: Hewlett Packard, Vancouver, WA Lines: 20 A fellow at work told me of an author by the surname Marrs who says that computers will become the device of the devil; that things bad will start happening about 1997; that the devil will take the form of a human and do miraculous things, then doublecross humankind and cause armageddon. Anyone know more about this? About books by Marrs? I am intrigued by all this. nks. ---------- Just sounds like another interpretation of Revelations 13, 11-18. Kevin Cyrus Hewlett Packard Vancouver Wa. kevinc@hp-vcd.vcd.hp.com Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!rpi!uwm.edu!rutgers!ucsd!sdcc6!sdcc13!pashley From: pashley@sdcc13.ucsd.edu (Montykins) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.slack,alt.conspiracy Subject: Re: Pseudosurvey Message-ID: <23012@sdcc6.ucsd.edu> Date: 30 Aug 91 18:51:51 GMT References: <7089@tellab5.tellabs.com> <1991Aug30.011922.5972@world.std.com> Sender: news@sdcc6.ucsd.edu Followup-To: alt.alien.visitors Distribution: na Organization: University of California, San Diego Lines: 19 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:1898 alt.slack:1116 alt.conspiracy:6793 In article <1991Aug30.011922.5972@world.std.com> kibo@world.std.com (James 'Kibo' Parry) writes: > >If there WEREN'T a HUGE GOV'T CONSPIRACY to prevent it, people would be >posting INTELLIGIBLE FACTS! > OTOH, if there WERE a Huge Government Conspiracy, that would imply that the Government is organized enough to whip a HGC together. The US government? Nah . . . (Of course, the only conspiracy they COULD make would be a HUGE one) -Paul "Monty" Ashley (They told be to say this.) -- "Ask me what I'm doing." | pashley@sdcc13.ucsd.edu "Okay, what are you doing? Oh no . . ." | [Not a UCSD employee] "I'm losing my mi-i-i-i-ind!" | "Dude - - get a new catchphrase." | Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!cwatters From: cwatters@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Coyt D Watters) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Pseudosurvey Message-ID: <1991Aug30.203056.17560@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> Date: 30 Aug 91 20:30:56 GMT References: <7089@tellab5.tellabs.com> <1991Aug30.011922.5972@world.std.com> <23012@sdcc6.ucsd.edu> Sender: news@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu Distribution: na Organization: The Ohio State University Lines: 21 Nntp-Posting-Host: top.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu In article <23012@sdcc6.ucsd.edu> pashley@sdcc13.ucsd.edu (Montykins) writes: [ ... quote removed .. ] >OTOH, if there WERE a Huge Government Conspiracy, that would imply >that the Government is organized enough to whip a HGC together. The >US government? Nah . . . (Of course, the only conspiracy they COULD >make would be a HUGE one) > > -Paul "Monty" Ashley > (They told be to say this.) Remember Stealth. Remember how long it was debated on whether or not to fund research into it. Remember that it was built, and tested while the funding debate went on. Don't need a HGC - we've agencies with more resources than some countries. -- Coyt D. Watters |Anybody gotta | "Oh, that cave's mighty dark, anyone The Arthur G. James |modem for a | bring a chicken which we can douse Cancer Hospital and |Timex/Sinclair | with oil, ignite, and toss in there?" Research Institute |1000? | --Anon. Player Character Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!rpi!psinntp!uupsi!dorsaidm!kizn From: kizn@dorsai.com (Daniel Delvalle) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: COLUMBIAN ALIENS AND BUSH Message-ID: Date: 29 Aug 91 16:00:38 GMT References: <1991Aug26.212641.29603@pmafire.inel.gov> Organization: The Dorsai Diplomatic Mission ( Mail address : user@dorsai.com ) Lines: 34 jeffl@servprod.inel.gov (Jeff Later) writes: > night caught the tale end of a "Duracell?" battery commercial using the "UFO" > theme. I was kind of surprised! In fact, I think part of the "plot" of > the ad involved a parents son being "abducted"? Anyone else catch this ad? Yeah, seems that Junior went along as a specimen? Ever since around 1978, when the movie "Close Encounters Of the Third Kind" , was released, the media and Hollywood have been putting an awfull lot of time and effort into UFO's and such. I imagine that a good portion of this is simply people out to make a buck, due to the intrest that the public has with the mysterious and unearthly. 1978 and thereabouts had a bumper crop in this subject matter...... Close Encounters.... Fredrick Valtivich...(spelled something like this) Was abducted while Flying from australia to New Zeland...WHILE talking to the control tower. E.T. also came out around this time. A media crew from melbourne captured on film a UFO a short time after Fredrick V. dissapeared. The papers had just gotten a hold of a file that told of a UFO burning out the electrical system of two US made jets that were chasing it over Iran. (was reported to CIA, and the media somehow got it through the Freedom Of Information Act). What can I say??.... yearly, some event happens that keeps UFO's in the limelight, But more so since '78. Kizn. Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!rpi!uwm.edu!linac!att!cbfsb!cbnewsb.cb.att.com!marz From: marz@cbnewsb.cb.att.com (martin.zam) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Calling Michael Corbin... Keywords: Please call or Email Message-ID: <1991Aug30.212112.1609@cbfsb.att.com> Date: 30 Aug 91 21:21:12 GMT Sender: news@cbfsb.att.com Distribution: usa Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories Lines: 11 Michael, I have not gotten any response to Email for several mail paths. Unless I respond to one of your postings, I don't seem to be getting to you. This has been going on for weeks. Please call or Email me. Thanks in advance, Martin Zam (201)564-2554 P.S. I'm sorry for the waste of bandwidth. Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!think.com!yale.edu!yale!hsdndev!dartvax!mars.caps.maine.edu!maine.maine.edu!umasp From: UMASP@MAINE.MAINE.EDU Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Marrs & End of world in 1997? computers tool of Satan? Message-ID: <91242.201929UMASP@MAINE.MAINE.EDU> Date: 31 Aug 91 00:19:29 GMT References: <1991Aug29.020039.29782@netcom.COM> Organization: University of Maine System Lines: 43 In article <1991Aug29.020039.29782@netcom.COM>, bryanw@netcom.COM (Bryan Woodworth) says: > >A fellow at work told me of an author by the surname Marrs who says that >computers will become the device of the devil; that things bad will start >happening about 1997; that the devil will take the form of a human and do >miraculous things, then doublecross humankind and cause armageddon. > >Anyone know more about this? About books by Marrs? I am intrigued by all >this. > >nks. >: >-- >Bryan Woodworth Mail: bryanw@netcom.COM >Netcom - Online Communication Services San Jose, CA If you take the letters in the word COMPUTER, and assign each one a value based on the letter's position in the alphabet, and multiply the result by 6 you get 666. Sound's satanic to me! Just in case you don't believe me: C = 3 x 6 = 18 O = 15 x 6 = 90 M = 13 x 6 = 78 P = 16 x 6 = 96 U = 21 x 6 = 126 T = 20 x 6 = 120 E = 5 x 6 = 30 R = 18 x 6 = 108 ------------------- Total = 666 By the way, each of my names has 6 letters in it. Does that make ME satanic??? People have been predicting armageddon(sp?) for many centuries. I guess we'll know its happening when it happens. George E Newell umasp@maine.maine.edu Path: ns-mx!uunet!cis.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!csn!scicom!paranet!p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG!Michael.Corbin From: Michael.Corbin@p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Michael Corbin) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Aliens: The Big _lie_ !!! Message-ID: <74563.28BEF4EC@paranet.FIDONET.ORG> Date: 31 Aug 91 00:08:00 GMT Sender: ufgate@paranet.FIDONET.ORG (newsout1.26) Organization: FidoNet node 1:104/428.0 - From: jms@vanth.UUCP (Jim Shaffer) > Date: 28 Aug 91 14:40:12 GMT > Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence > Message-ID: > Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors > Still, *someone* told me *sometime* that the spaceships in CETK were > based > on *something*. I'm fairly sure that they said Bentwaters, as a matter > of > fact. I don't know why I didn't catch the fallacy a lot sooner. Since J. Allen Hynek and Jacques Vallee were consultants for that film, you can bet that the material that was used was taken directly from some of their more reliable cases. Mike -- Michael Corbin - via FidoNet node 1:104/422 UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name INTERNET: Michael.Corbin@p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!csn!scicom!paranet!p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG!Michael.Corbin From: Michael.Corbin@p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Michael Corbin) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Pseudosurvey Message-ID: <74564.28BEF4EE@paranet.FIDONET.ORG> Date: 31 Aug 91 00:21:00 GMT Sender: ufgate@paranet.FIDONET.ORG (newsout1.26) Organization: FidoNet node 1:104/428.0 - From: jcj@tellab3.tellabs.com (jcj) > Date: 29 Aug 91 18:00:13 GMT > Organization: Hotel California > Message-ID: <7089@tellab5.tellabs.com> > Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors > Having been "lurking" for a few weeks, I would really like to > know how many of you people posting these "grays" articles > actually believe that there's a govt-ET conspiracy to stop > valid data on this sort of stuff. I don't mean to flame or > ridicule anyone, but you gotta admit some of this stuff is > way out there. > My background (if you care): Bachelors in Astro from > Northwestern U. (Yes, I knew Dr. Hynek). Agnostic about > the little guys... If you knew Hynek, then you have the answer to your "pseudosurvey." As you know, Hynek was a mouthpiece for the Air Force's Project Blue Book. His initial attitude was that only kooks and crackpots saw UFOs, which made him a perfect choice for the Air Force. However, after a few years of watching and debunking every report Hynek saw, he began to wonder about this whole situation. Obviously, not only kooks and crackpots were seeing and reporting UFOs, but so were credible civilian and military aircraft pilots. Actually, Hynek found that very little of the reports were generated by kooks and crackpots. Finally, the height of Hynek's mouthpiece years came to a close in the famous Michigan case where Hynek declared that a sighting by several credible witnesses was swamp gas. Following this, Hynek denounced his relationship with the Air Force and went on with then young Jacques Vallee to found the Center for UFO Studies in Illinois. In the early years, Hynek attributed the problem of no progress to absol ute naivity and stupidity on the part of the Air Force. He claimed that they were not scientists and were thusly not qualified to study this serious problem. However, as time went, and Hynek got more involved, he began to see that there was a coverup going on. ParaNet's director of research and investigation, Robert Klinn was a special investigator for Hynek. There was a case that occurred in Yucaipa, CA, where a tape recording was made of a UFO as it flew low over houses and a church. He personally p aid for the trip and research out of his own pocket and stated, "I'm going to make the Air Force eat this!" Until his death, Hynek was a big proponent of the reality of the phenomenon, and the coverup that ensued as a result of it. As far as the so-called reality of the "greys," I cannot comment on this, but I will say that whatever this phenomenon represents, there are more strange things involved than little aliens running around. Mike -- Michael Corbin - via FidoNet node 1:104/422 UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name INTERNET: Michael.Corbin@p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG Path: ns-mx!uunet!fernwood!portal!cup.portal.com!sgraziano From: sgraziano@cup.portal.com (Steve - Graziano) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Marrs & End of world in 1997? computers tool of Satan? Message-ID: <46346@cup.portal.com> Date: 31 Aug 91 18:46:48 GMT References: <1991Aug29.020039.29782@netcom.COM> <91242.201929UMASP@MAINE.MAINE.EDU> Distribution: usa Organization: The Portal System (TM) Lines: 26 An argument was brought up in Scientific American some years ago (sorry, don't know what issue) that gave the argument that if you really wanted to, you can make any object or any number relate to 666, 555, 123, or whatever number you wish with a bit of mathematical play. Case in point, take a look at the latest MONDO mag, the article that talks about how the national bank system is the bibles prophetic beast, and credit cards are the numbers assigned to the population. If Computers are work of the devil, then so must calculators, electronic watches, and anything else electronic. (I can't imagine Teddy Ruxpin telling children to worship the devil on armigeddon 8-) ) I'll end with this note: Works of the Devil: Computers Rock & Roll Adultry ( Read a playboy, go to hell ) Politicians Lawyers Steven Graziano sgraziano@cup.portal.com Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!news.iastate.edu!sharkey!nstar!sara From: sara@nstar.rn.com (Sara Gordon) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Marrs & End of world in 1997? computers tool of Satan? Message-ID: <4LRL81w161w@nstar.rn.com> Date: 1 Sep 91 16:59:38 GMT References: <1991Aug29.020039.29782@netcom.COM> Sender: news@news.rn.com (Usenet News) Organization: NSTAR, Indiana's BBS 219-289-0287/317-251-7391 Lines: 31 Nntp-Posting-Host: zztop.rn.com > A fellow at work told me of an author by the surname Marrs who says that > computers will become the device of the devil; that things bad will start > happening about 1997; that the devil will take the form of a human and do > miraculous things, then doublecross humankind and cause armageddon. > > Anyone know more about this? About books by Marrs? I am intrigued by all You can read more about the devil taking the form of a human and doing miraculous things in the Bible, in the book of Revelation. He is called the AntiChrist, and just about any Christian Bookstore will have references on Armageddon and the events proceeding it, as well as would have any public library. Authors Hal Lindsey and Dave Hunt are two that I would recommend. Lindsey focuses more on Scriptural interpretation; Hunt focuses more on what will actually happen (i.e. the role of the Antichrist). As for -computers- I have always thought they would play a part. What part, no one seems to know; Ill have to check out Marrs :) What has this to do with UFO's I am not sure, but I think there is some connection. Many things we become more desensitized to and accept as normal (as has been noted, ufo abduction, friendly aliens, etc) could easily help usher in the 'new spiritual awakening' and the 'worshipping of a false god of false miracles' as is described by these authors. -- Sara Gordon Northern Star 8 line BBS 219-289-0287/317-251-7391 internet: sara@nstar.rn.com uucp: ..!uunet!nstar.rn.com!sara -= newsfeeds available, contact robert@towers.rn.com =- Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!convex.csd.uwm.edu!anthony From: anthony@convex.csd.uwm.edu (Anthony J Stieber) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Is Spielberg responsible? Message-ID: <1991Sep2.002145.17403@uwm.edu> Date: 2 Sep 91 00:21:45 GMT References: <1124@cronos.metaphor.com> <1991Aug20.042748.19325@bilver.uucp> Sender: news@uwm.edu (USENET News System) Organization: University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee Lines: 41 In article <1991Aug20.042748.19325@bilver.uucp> dona@bilver.uucp (Don Allen) writes: >In article <1124@cronos.metaphor.com> eherrera@zinfandel.metaphor.com (Eric Herrera) writes: >>I think Betty even drew a "star map" for her shrink, verified by >>astronomers that it was correct from a different (non-Solar) >>perspective! >Betty and Barney Hill's abduction experience was included in the Stanton >Friedman video "UFO's are Real". Actually, Betty made a sketch of >the star system and that was later expanded upon by Majorie Fish, who >correlated it to the Zeta Reticuli start system by some months of effort. It seems however, that given a random set of two dimensional dots (the "star map"), that you can correlate that to a random set of three dimensional points (real star positions), given enough work. One of the most important things you'll learn in a statistics class is that given enough samples, *anything* can be correlated to anything else. I really wonder why an alien would bother giving someone a two dimensional star map anyway, it's just about useless. It's the sort of thing I would expect a person that doesn't understand astronomy to make. I've seen the map, it has various lines connecting the dots, which are supposed to indicate trade and exploration routes. What would be something, would be for a person to obtain the locations and say, the frequencies of previously unknown pulsars. Just about any other easily verifiable, but difficult to obtain information would be as good. A really spectacular near proof of aliens (or at least prescience) would be if a person obtained the exact time and location of a supernova well before it could have been predicted with current knowlege. The aliens wouldn't even have to be great astronomers, they would just have to find a supernova who's light hasn't reached earth yet, and beat it back in their faster-than-light spacecraft. Given that this sort of information hasn't surfaced, I would guess that the supposed aliens really don't want us know they really exist. Currently, my own views on the aliens are, that there are the modern equivalent of demons, goblins, vampires, and other boogypersons. Humans have the tendency to believe in all sorts of things. Alien invasion is just one of many things that people believe. -- Watching the skies :) Anthony Stieber Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!muckenho From: muckenho@occs.alt (Carl Van Muckenhoupt) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Marrs & End of world in 1997? computers tool of Satan? Message-ID: Date: 2 Sep 91 07:54:40 GMT References: <1991Aug29.020039.29782@netcom.COM> <91242.201929UMASP@MAINE.MAINE.EDU> Sender: usenet@ctr.columbia.edu (I Use Net) Organization: Oberlin College Computer Science Lines: 32 In-Reply-To: UMASP@MAINE.MAINE.EDU's message of 31 Aug 91 00: 19:29 GMT In article <91242.201929UMASP@MAINE.MAINE.EDU> UMASP@MAINE.MAINE.EDU writes: If you take the letters in the word COMPUTER, and assign each one a value based on the letter's position in the alphabet, and multiply the result by 6 you get 666. Sound's satanic to me! Just in case you don't believe me: C = 3 x 6 = 18 O = 15 x 6 = 90 M = 13 x 6 = 78 P = 16 x 6 = 96 U = 21 x 6 = 126 T = 20 x 6 = 120 E = 5 x 6 = 30 R = 18 x 6 = 108 ------------------- Total = 666 This is very unprofessional work. You multiply everything by 6. Why? I am not an expert on Gematria (the Kabbalistic system of numerology that St. John was probably referring to when he came up with that number), but still it strikes me that seldom do you go multiplying arbitrary constants into your answers without a good reason. Especially when the initial result (111) is such a significant number already. 111 is the number of ALEPH, as well as a bunch of other good and powerful words, in Hebrew. Thus, to the author(s) of the Revelation, 111 would signify divine rather that demonic forces. Of course I can't vouch for St. John's willingness to accept the validity of adding up positions in the Roman alphabet as a substitute for traditional Gematria, so even this interpretation, even though it is more in line with our experience, is suspect. Path: ns-mx!uunet!mcsun!ukc!icdoc!sot-ecs!of From: of@ecs.soton.ac.uk (Fibre Optics) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Marrs & End of world in 1997? computers tool of Satan? Message-ID: <8704@ecs.soton.ac.uk> Date: 2 Sep 91 09:59:38 GMT References: <1991Aug29.020039.29782@netcom.COM> <4LRL81w161w@nstar.rn.com> Sender: news@ecs.soton.ac.uk Lines: 48 In <4LRL81w161w@nstar.rn.com> sara@nstar.rn.com (Sara Gordon) writes: >> A fellow at work told me of an author by the surname Marrs who says that >> computers will become the device of the devil; that things bad will start >> happening about 1997; that the devil will take the form of a human and do >> miraculous things, then doublecross humankind and cause armageddon. >> >> Anyone know more about this? About books by Marrs? I am intrigued by all > >You can read more about the devil taking the form of a human and doing >miraculous things in the Bible, in the book of Revelation. He is called the >AntiChrist, and just about any Christian Bookstore will have references on >Armageddon and the events proceeding it, as well as would have any public >library. Authors Hal Lindsey and Dave Hunt are two that I would recommend. >Lindsey focuses more on Scriptural interpretation; Hunt focuses more on what >will actually happen (i.e. the role of the Antichrist). As for -computers- I >have always thought they would play a part. What part, no one seems to know; >Ill have to check out Marrs :) No ! No ! Forget about Marrs ! Forget about the Bible too ! You wanna know about computers and Armageddon ? Read The Koran...... > >What has this to do with UFO's I am not sure, but I think there is some >connection. Many things we become more desensitized to and accept as normal >(as has been noted, ufo abduction, friendly aliens, etc) could easily help >usher in the 'new spiritual awakening' and the 'worshipping of a false god >of false miracles' as is described by these authors. >-- >Sara Gordon >Northern Star 8 line BBS >219-289-0287/317-251-7391 >internet: sara@nstar.rn.com >uucp: ..!uunet!nstar.rn.com!sara > -= newsfeeds available, contact robert@towers.rn.com =- -- Peter Harris G4BDQ | Unusual exploding disclaimer -> (}|){//) Fibre Optics *-----------------------------------------------------(--PAF !-) Southampton University| "Relax in the safety of your own delusions" (/}|{\\) of@ecs.soton.ac.uk | Kerry Wendell Thornley ||| Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!mips!apple!portal!cup.portal.com!Don_A_Showen From: Don_A_Showen@cup.portal.com Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic Subject: Our Moon Part 1 Message-ID: <46422@cup.portal.com> Date: 2 Sep 91 18:18:46 GMT Organization: The Portal System (TM) Lines: 32 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:1910 sci.skeptic:14234 Back in the year 1952 there was an amateur astronomer by the name of O neill who said that he had seen a 12 mile long bridge across a crater near Mare Crisium on our Moon. There was also a report for many years that lights appeared to turn on in certain craters for a few hours and then turn off. He released this information then the professional astronomers really pounced on him. Mr. H. T. Winkins, who is the world authority on the moon, told everyone to leave him alone. His words were; Oh, yes it s there . I estimate that it is 20 miles long and from one to two miles wide. Wilkens thought it was an artificial structure because, from both ends, it tapered to the middle, just as many bridges do. And when you say it looks artificial said the radio man, What do you mean exactly by that? Well, it looks almost like an engineering job replied Wilkens. When the incident was reported by the US media, the wire service corrected Wilkens statement by saying the great bridge on Mare Crisium was a natural bridge. The bridge is said to be seen best during the first 6 or 8 days of a new moon using a 60 to l00 power telescope. That is all for now. I hope to be attending the National New Age and Alien Agenda Conference, Sept. 6,7,8 and 9th in the Airport Holiday Inn, Phoenix, Ariz. I hope to be there on the 6th and 7th with my video camera. They have a 24 hour Phoenix Conference hotline and it is 602-230-5381. You ll be able to recognize me because I ll be wearing a bright Hawaiian tourist shirt, a burple (not purple) hat and dark sunglasses. Some people say I look like Bob Hope on tour in this get-up. I ll leave you with this saying ; It is better to light one small candle than to curse the darkness. Standard Disclaimer John. I am letting John use my account for his posts. Don S. Path: ns-mx!uunet!pilchuck!ssc!fylz!eskimo!nanook From: nanook@eskimo.celestial.com (Robert Dinse) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Pseudosurvey Summary: Pseudo-reply Message-ID: <1225@eskimo.celestial.com> Date: 2 Sep 91 22:12:07 GMT References: <7089@tellab5.tellabs.com> Distribution: na Organization: ESKIMO NORTH (206) 367-3837 SEATTLE WA. Lines: 44 In article <7089@tellab5.tellabs.com>, jcj@tellab3.tellabs.com (jcj) writes: > > Having been "lurking" for a few weeks, I would really like to > know how many of you people posting these "grays" articles > actually believe that there's a govt-ET conspiracy to stop > valid data on this sort of stuff. I don't mean to flame or > ridicule anyone, but you gotta admit some of this stuff is > way out there. I believe there are alien civilizations (extra-terrestrials), that they do/have visited this planet, and that at least a faction of the US Govt, and probably others as well, know about them and perhaps to a degree interact with them. One of the things you see happening on here is that a few people will start posting about first-hand information that sounds like it might be credible, then there is a diluge of obvious bs. I think the latter comes from sources that want to discredit the existance of alien intelligence here. Now, I see a couple of themes show up real frequently, one I'd call "ET Revelations", which is basically Revelations from the Bible re-interpreted into UFO lingo. The other is 'V' (the sci-fi mini-series/book). I don't believe either of those scenerios is likely. What I do find plausible is that a more advanced civilization is interested in the development of our civilization because their own past has been lost to them and they pick up insight into their own development by observing the development of other races. Any sufficiently advanced civilization is undoubtably aware of what generally happens when an advanced civilization meets a more primative one. For reasons of not skewing the data, and maybe even for some moral reasons, I think they would have an interest in remaining unknown to us. Here on the terrestrial field, there are many people who've aquired wealth and power from selling energy and arms. A world view that would likely result if we learned that we weren't alone in the cosmos would likely be threatening to their position of power. Thus they have every interest in also preventing us from knowing about any alien visitors, and thus they have some motivation to help keep any alien operations secret. This of coarse is only opinion and conjecture. I've had some rather strange experiences myself, they don't seem to fit within the grey-vs-nords theme. I do believe the "men in black" are real, but I don't think they are extra-terrestrial in nature. Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!unix.cis.pitt.edu!dsinc!netnews.upenn.edu!msuinfo!ibm.cl.msu.edu!WYNNWM From: WYNNWM@ibm.cl.msu.edu Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Why has noone asked.... Message-ID: <1991Sep3.203655.3626@msuinfo.cl.msu.edu> Date: 3 Sep 91 20:22:00 GMT Sender: news@msuinfo.cl.msu.edu Organization: Michigan State University Lines: 7 The most obvious questions in this group have remained unasked. Why? Are there any aliens reading this? Can you prove it? Have you ever seen one? Can you prove it? What about "real" experiences. Have you had one? What have you seen (no fiction please) that you cannot explain? I can write a book about these things. Please open up. Write me alone if you are uncomfortable. I will document it and report back. I will believe you! The nice thing about seeing is knowing for sure. Path: ns-mx!uunet!wang!news From: warren@worlds.com (Warren Burstein) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic Subject: Re: Our Moon Part 1 Message-ID: <610@vaccine.UUCP> Date: 4 Sep 91 21:14:22 GMT References: <46422@cup.portal.com> Sender: news@wang.com Followup-To: alt.alien.visitors Organization: WorldWide Software Lines: 20 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:1913 sci.skeptic:14289 Don_A_Showen@cup.portal.com writes: > When the incident was reported by the US media, the wire service >corrected Wilkens statement by saying the great bridge on Mare Crisium was >a natural bridge. A conspiracy, of course. Can't trust those wire services. Only believe what you hear on alt.paranomal. And of course any recent photographs don't shed any light on it, the aliens either took it down or faked it to look natural when they heard we were coming. Heh. > I ll leave you with this saying ; It is better to light one small candle >than to curse the darkness. And best of all is one who has a clue. -- /|/-\/-\ The entire world Jerusalem |__/__/_/ is a very strange carrot |warren@ But the farmer / worlds.COM is not worried at all. Path: ns-mx!uunet!bonnie.concordia.ca!ccu.umanitoba.ca!bison!sys6626!gstimp From: gstimp@sys6626.bison.mb.ca (Gary Stimpson) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Strange Dreams.. Message-ID: <5Xiq81w164w@sys6626.bison.mb.ca> Date: 4 Sep 91 03:40:27 GMT Organization: system 6626 BBS, Winnipeg MB Lines: 9 Does it mean anything if you keep having strange dreams with Aliens/UFO's in them? Or is just an over active imagination? Ttyl! Gary --- (Gary Stimpson) a user of sys6626, running waffle 1.64 E-mail: gstimp@sys6626.bison.mb.ca system 6626: 63 point west drive, winnipeg manitoba canada R3T 5G8 Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!caen!nstar!sara From: sara@nstar.rn.com (Sara Gordon) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Strange Dreams.. Message-ID: Date: 4 Sep 91 16:02:55 GMT References: <5Xiq81w164w@sys6626.bison.mb.ca> Sender: news@news.rn.com (Usenet News) Organization: NSTAR, Indiana's BBS 219-289-0287/317-251-7391 Lines: 18 Nntp-Posting-Host: zztop.rn.com > Does it mean anything if you keep having strange dreams with Aliens/UFO's in > them? Or is just an over active imagination? > > Ttyl! > Gary > Well, Gerry, it could me a lot. Especially if the dreams are not really dreams, but are instead alien experiences. Check out alt.alien.visitors. -- Sara Gordon Northern Star 8 line BBS 219-289-0287/317-251-7391 internet: sara@nstar.rn.com uucp: ..!uunet!nstar.rn.com!sara -= newsfeeds available, contact robert@towers.rn.com =- Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!caen!nstar!sara From: sara@nstar.rn.com (Sara Gordon) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: boy am i stupid! Message-ID: Date: 4 Sep 91 16:20:26 GMT Sender: news@news.rn.com (Usenet News) Organization: NSTAR, Indiana's BBS 219-289-0287/317-251-7391 Lines: 13 Nntp-Posting-Host: zztop.rn.com boy, am i stupid. :) to Gary with the alien dreams, I MEANT to post "check out alt.dreams" . Since he is already obviously IN alt.alien.visitors, I might add that what appears to be a dream could be reality. Exactly what kind of alien dreams are we talking about here? -- Sara Gordon Northern Star 8 line BBS 219-289-0287/317-251-7391 internet: sara@nstar.rn.com uucp: ..!uunet!nstar.rn.com!sara -= newsfeeds available, contact robert@towers.rn.com =- Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!rpi!dali.cs.montana.edu!decwrl!deccrl!news.crl.dec.com!nntpd.lkg.dec.com!engage.pko.dec.com!verga.enet.dec.com!stanley From: stanley@verga.enet.dec.com Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Alien Dreams Message-ID: <1991Sep4.181122.15003@engage.pko.dec.com> Date: 5 Sep 91 02:12:12 GMT Sender: newsdaemon@engage.pko.dec.com (USENET News Daemon) Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation Lines: 9 I've had a lot of alien dreams too. Several of them were reoccurring. --- Mary Stanley (INTERNET,UUCP) stanley@verga.enet.dec.com (UUCP) ...!decwrl!verga.enet!stanley (INTERNET) stanley%verga.enet@decwrl.dec.com --- Path: ns-mx!uunet!cis.ohio-state.edu!sei.cmu.edu!fs7.ece.cmu.edu!crabapple.srv.cs.cmu.edu!andrew.cmu.edu!mb5a+ From: mb5a+@andrew.cmu.edu (Miyoko Erika Baensch) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: COLUMBIAN ALIENS AND BUSH Message-ID: <4clOIo200WBKM2=lQ9@andrew.cmu.edu> Date: 5 Sep 91 03:32:04 GMT References: <1510@mixcom.COM> <1991Aug26.212641.29603@pmafire.inel.gov> <1991Aug29.030042.28562@ISF.Unisys.COM> Distribution: usa Organization: Sophomore, Art, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA Lines: 8 In-Reply-To: <1991Aug29.030042.28562@ISF.Unisys.COM> I have also noticed a popularization of the whole space alien thing. I was eatin' in taco bell and on my place mat was a story about space aliens and taco bell. they designed this placemat to be like a newspaper like Weekly World. This may have already been written about previously, but i figured i would write about it again in case no one else had. miyoko carnegie mellon university. Path: ns-mx!uunet!spool.mu.edu!caen!nstar!sara From: sara@nstar.rn.com (Sara Gordon) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Alien Dreams Message-ID: <6NBs82w161w@nstar.rn.com> Date: 5 Sep 91 05:58:28 GMT References: <1991Sep4.181122.15003@engage.pko.dec.com> Sender: news@news.rn.com (Usenet News) Organization: NSTAR, Indiana's BBS 219-289-0287/317-251-7391 Lines: 18 Nntp-Posting-Host: zztop.rn.com stanley@verga.enet.dec.com writes: > > I've had a lot of alien dreams too. Several of them were reoccurring. > > --- > (INTERNET) stanley%verga.enet@decwrl.dec.com > --- Please, would you care to elucidate? :) -- Sara Gordon Northern Star 8 line BBS 219-289-0287/317-251-7391 internet: sara@nstar.rn.com uucp: ..!uunet!nstar.rn.com!sara -= newsfeeds available, contact robert@towers.rn.com =- Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!usc!rutgers!cbmvax!amix!vanth!jms From: jms@vanth.UUCP (Jim Shaffer) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Our Moon Part 1 Message-ID: Date: 4 Sep 91 15:04:49 GMT References: <46422@cup.portal.com> Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence Lines: 15 In article <46422@cup.portal.com> Don_A_Showen@cup.portal.com writes: > > The bridge is said to be seen best during the first 6 or 8 days of a >new moon using a 60 to l00 power telescope. I wasn't aware it was still visible. I guess I'll have to take a look one of these days. Of course, this brings up the question, how do I know what I'm looking for? And if I know what I'm looking for, won't I find it whether it's really there or not? -- * From the disk of: |>>>>> back at the old feed <<<<<| We're only immortal Jim Shaffer, Jr. | uunet!cbmvax!amix!vanth!jms | for a limited time. 37 Brook Street | jms%vanth@amix.commodore.com | Montgomery, PA 17752 | 72750.2335@compuserve.com | (Rush, "Dreamline") Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!linac!att!att!fang!tarpit!bilver!dona From: dona@bilver.uucp (Don Allen) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic Subject: Re: Our Moon Part 1 Message-ID: <1991Sep4.010632.20064@bilver.uucp> Date: 4 Sep 91 01:06:32 GMT References: <46422@cup.portal.com> Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL Lines: 46 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:1921 sci.skeptic:14320 In article <46422@cup.portal.com> Don_A_Showen@cup.portal.com writes: > > Back in the year 1952 there was an amateur astronomer by the name of >O neill who said that he had seen a 12 mile long bridge across a crater near >Mare Crisium on our Moon. There was also a report for many years that lights >appeared to turn on in certain craters for a few hours and then turn off. >He released this information then the professional astronomers really >pounced on him. Mr. H. T. Winkins, who is the world authority on the moon, >told everyone to leave him alone. His words were; Oh, yes it s there . I >estimate that it is 20 miles long and from one to two miles wide. Wilkens >thought it was an artificial structure because, from both ends, it tapered to >the middle, just as many bridges do. > And when you say it looks artificial said the radio man, What do >I am letting John use my account for his posts. Don S. Now that's interesting.. Wonder how many of the Govt PAID Debunkers,net.pinheads jump on this one? :-) Here's a tidbit for you John... I heard from a reliable source that our wonderful Govt has satellites in orbit that can actually _tap into a channeling session_...in fact, I know of a particular case where a woman was channelling an entity and the Govt *broke into* the channelling session through the woman and wanted to know some details..in fact, they even identified themselves as such. For those of you who think that channelled communications are secure..think again.. BIG BROTHER knows all..sees all..and it gets fed to that HUGE computer in Brussels which is affectionately known as "the Beast".. "Skynet" IS a reality...that's your SDI in action. Flame away pinheads in sci.skeptic..I use the responses when I print them out to line kitty's litter box :-) Don -- -* Don Allen *- InterNet: dona@bilver.UUCP // Amiga..for the best of us. USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-) UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!vicstoy!dona KING George Bush?? Just say NO! UFO's in commercials....is the GOVT getting us ready for OCTOBER of 1992? Path: ns-mx!uunet!math.fu-berlin.de!uniol!unido!mpirbn!p515dfi From: p515dfi@mpirbn.mpifr-bonn.mpg.de (Daniel Fischer) Newsgroups: sci.astro,rec.radio.amateur.misc,dnet.ham,alt.alien.visitors Subject: Strange radio signals from nearby stars ??? Message-ID: <2324@mpirbn.mpifr-bonn.mpg.de> Date: 5 Sep 91 14:38:35 GMT Reply-To: p515dfi@mpirbn.UUCP (Daniel Fischer) Followup-To: sci.astro Organization: Max-Planck-Institut fuer Radioastronomie, Bonn Lines: 16 Xref: ns-mx sci.astro:11056 rec.radio.amateur.misc:6920 alt.alien.visitors:1922 The following was contained in a text distributed by the German news agency dpa, which is known for its often incorrect science stories. Nonetheless I'd like to know what the story is behind the following remarks in a feature article on NASA's new Search for Extraterrestrial Intelligence program: ] In the same way as radio signals from earth reach out for 100 light years, ] signals of this kind can also be detected from outside earth. E.g., the ] radio telescope in Arecibo on Puerto Rico has detected electromagnetic ] pulses from stars close to the solar system, that resemble our radar. ] And Soviet astronomers are marvelling since one year about the origin of ] unusual signals that they have detected from the star Atair, only 17 light ] years away in the constellation Eagle. +- p515dfi@mpifr-bonn.mpg.de --- Daniel Fischer --- p515dfi@mpifr-bonn.mpg.de -+ | Max-Planck-Institut f. Radioastronomie, Auf dem Huegel 69, W-5300 Bonn 1,FRG | +----- Enjoy the Universe - it's the only one you're likely to experience -----+ Path: ns-mx!uunet!spool.mu.edu!tulane!intruder!goff From: goff@pops.navo.navy.mil (Viki Goff) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: End of the World Message-ID: <9037@cs.tulane.edu> Date: 5 Sep 91 17:18:27 GMT Sender: news@cs.tulane.edu Organization: POPS Facility Management Lines: 27 Dear Readers of alt.alien.visitors: ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils. I Timothy 4:1 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ I uphold the Word of God to be the unerrant truth of the ages and that Jesus Christ is the Word, the Way, The TRUTH and the LIGHT and NO ONE COMES UNTO THE FATHER EXCEPT BY HIM. If all of these other folks can post outrageous stories and opinions, then why can't Christians speak what should be spoken!!! New agers... you better quit channeling evil spirits or you will be destroyed. Satan is a whole lot smarter than you are. Wake up and turn to Jesus before it's too late! DISCLAIMER ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "My management says that my beliefs are not necessarily theirs and so I disclaim their beliefs and they disclaim mine. No problem." ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Path: ns-mx!uunet!munnari.oz.au!metro!ipso!runxtsa!jason From: jason@runx.oz.au (Jason Haines) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Alien Dreams Message-ID: <1991Sep5.105215.29395@runx.oz.au> Date: 5 Sep 91 10:52:15 GMT References: <1991Sep4.181122.15003@engage.pko.dec.com> Organization: RUNX Un*x Timeshare. Sydney, Australia. Lines: 14 In article <1991Sep4.181122.15003@engage.pko.dec.com> stanley@verga.enet.dec.com writes: > >I've had a lot of alien dreams too. Several of them were reoccurring. > One common theme in my dreams is a planet with three moons.. I am standing outside some kind of shack and talking about the beauty of three moons in the sky at once. -- Jason Haines INTERNET:jason@runxtsa.runx.oz.au UUCP: uunet!runxtsa.runx.oz.au!jason ACSNet: jason@runxtsa.runx.oz _______________________________________________________________________ Path: ns-mx!uunet!decwrl!pa.dec.com!shodha.enet.dec.com!timpson From: timpson@shodha.enet.dec.com (Steve Timpson) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: End of the World Message-ID: <4008@shodha.enet.dec.com> Date: 5 Sep 91 18:58:01 GMT Sender: news@shodha.enet.dec.com Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation Lines: 7 In article <9037@cs.tulane.edu>, goff@pops.navo.navy.mil (Viki Goff) writes... >Dear Readers of alt.alien.visitors: Stuff Deleted >Wake up and turn to Jesus before it's too late! Wake yourself up a get a life! Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!unix.cis.pitt.edu!gvlf3.gvl.unisys.com!tredysvr!cellar!revpk From: revpk@cellar.UUCP (Brian 'Rev P-K' Siano) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic Subject: Re: Our Moon Part 1 Message-ID: Date: 5 Sep 91 16:43:47 GMT References: <1991Sep4.010632.20064@bilver.uucp> Sender: bbs@cellar.UUCP (The Cellar BBS) Organization: The Cellar BBS and public access system Lines: 59 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:1926 sci.skeptic:14339 dona@bilver.uucp (Don Allen) writes: > In article <46422@cup.portal.com> Don_A_Showen@cup.portal.com writes: > > > > Back in the year 1952 there was an amateur astronomer by the name of > >O neill who said that he had seen a 12 mile long bridge across a crater near > >Mare Crisium on our Moon. There was also a report for many years that ligh > >appeared to turn on in certain craters for a few hours and then turn off. > >He released this information then the professional astronomers really > >pounced on him. Mr. H. T. Winkins, who is the world authority on the moo > >told everyone to leave him alone. His words were; Oh, yes it s there . > >estimate that it is 20 miles long and from one to two miles wide. Wilkens > >thought it was an artificial structure because, from both ends, it tapered t > >the middle, just as many bridges do. > > And when you say it looks artificial said the radio man, What do > >I am letting John use my account for his posts. Don S. > > Now that's interesting.. > > Wonder how many of the Govt PAID Debunkers,net.pinheads jump on this one? :-) > > Here's a tidbit for you John... > > I heard from a reliable source that our wonderful Govt has satellites in > orbit that can actually _tap into a channeling session_...in fact, I > know of a particular case where a woman was channelling an entity and the > Govt *broke into* the channelling session through the woman and wanted to kno > some details..in fact, they even identified themselves as such. > > For those of you who think that channelled communications are secure..think > again.. > > BIG BROTHER knows all..sees all..and it gets fed to that HUGE computer in > Brussels which is affectionately known as "the Beast".. > > "Skynet" IS a reality...that's your SDI in action. > > Flame away pinheads in sci.skeptic..I use the responses when I print them > out to line kitty's litter box :-) > > Don > > > -- > -* Don Allen *- InterNet: dona@bilver.UUCP // Amiga..for the best of us. > USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-) > UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!vicstoy!dona KING George Bush?? Just say NO! > UFO's in commercials....is the GOVT getting us ready for OCTOBER of 1992? Don't worry-- I've heard from VERY RELIABLE SOURCES that the government's surveillance can be stopped by wrapping aluminum foil around your head. Blocks out the microwaves, y'know. """""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" Brian Siano, Delaware Valley Skeptics Rev. Philosopher-King of The First Church of the Divine Otis Redding revpk@Cellar.UUCP "Ecrasez l'enfame!" - Voltaire """""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!spool.mu.edu!uunet!pmafire! From: jeffl@servprod.inel.gov (Jeff Later) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Aliens: The Big _lie_ !!! Message-ID: <1991Sep05.201658.29184@pmafire.inel.gov> Date: 5 Sep 91 20:16:58 GMT References: <74563.28BEF4EC@paranet.FIDONET.ORG> Sender: J.B. Later Distribution: na Organization: WINCO Lines: 33 In article <74563.28BEF4EC@paranet.FIDONET.ORG> Michael.Corbin@p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Michael Corbin) writes: > > > From: jms@vanth.UUCP (Jim Shaffer) > > Date: 28 Aug 91 14:40:12 GMT > > Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence > > Message-ID: > > Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors > > > Still, *someone* told me *sometime* that the spaceships in CETK were > > based > > on *something*. I'm fairly sure that they said Bentwaters, as a matter > > of > > fact. I don't know why I didn't catch the fallacy a lot sooner. > >Since J. Allen Hynek and Jacques Vallee were consultants for that film, you >can bet that the material that was used was taken directly from some of their more reliable cases. "CETK"???? Please forgive me. I live in Idaho, where we are still getting re-runs "My Favorite Martian"! I am not familiar with this film. Is it a recent release? When was it made, and is it out on tape yet?? Thanks!! _____________________________________________________________________________ ||~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~|~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~|| ||Jeff B. Later WB7TZA (jeffl@pmafire.inel.gov) | "I have become || ||**"Disclaimer, Disclaimer, where's my lawyer!** | comfortably numb" || || | Pink Floyd || ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Path: ns-mx!uunet!pmafire!reiser From: reiser@pmafire.inel.gov (Steve Reiser) Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors Subject: UFOs and Abductees Message-ID: <1991Sep05.215012.3207@pmafire.inel.gov> Date: 5 Sep 91 21:50:12 GMT Organization: Winco Process Development, Idaho Lines: 18 Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:14351 alt.alien.visitors:1928 In the mid-1960s I had strong interest which I dropped because not one shred of convincing evidence came forth to indicate that unidentified flying objects were in fact the space craft of extraterrestrial beings. To my knowledge this is still the current state of affairs on the subject. Many astounding stories have been published since World War II, yet not one concrete piece of evidence has come forth to verify that the supposed intellignetly guided crafts exists. The same goes for the stories of people being abducted. If individuals have been abducted what evidence is there that they are not making it up. (Lie detector tests, separate interviews of those claiming to have shared an experience, etc.) Steve -- Steve Reiser (reiser@pmafire.inel.gov or !uunet!pmafire!reiser) Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!caen!news.cs.indiana.edu!lynx!vesta.unm.edu!thelar From: thelar@vesta.unm.edu Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: UFOs and Abductees Message-ID: Date: 5 Sep 91 23:01:32 GMT References: <1991Sep05.215012.3207@pmafire.inel.gov> Organization: University of New Mexico, Albuquerque Lines: 11 Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:14356 alt.alien.visitors:1929 It would appear that you don't believe in life on other planets. To this let me reply that to think that of the Billions (gazillions, whetever) of planets, that we are the only ones with intelligent life upon it is: 1) A thought held by many unintelligent people. 2) A defiance of all staticians hold to be true. Statistically speaking we have approx. a 99% chance of being average. Larry Koch thelar@pavo.unm.edu Path: ns-mx!uunet!hoptoad!rtech!wrs!davidj From: davidj@wrs.com (David Jones) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Implants Summary: More on alien implants Keywords: implant Message-ID: Date: 5 Sep 91 20:28:43 GMT Sender: usenet@wrs.com (News Manager) Organization: Wind River Systems, Inc. Lines: 39 Nntp-Posting-Host: erra ********************************************************************** After posting several articles and never receiving a response, I discovered that we were receiving the news, but that I could not respond. I hope this has been fixed. Please let me know if you get this. I will repost about nine articles that I did previously. ********************************************************************** In article jms@vanth.UUCP (Jim Shaffer) writes: > Whitley Strieber has had some sort of scan done and some sort of objects > appeared on it. I don't know if any abductees have died yet, but it would > be extremely interesting to check for implants when they do. (Unless the > aliens dematerialize them or something.) I haven't heard about any > exploratory surgery either. Some sources (Cooper et. al.) say that the > implants are located such that it would be extremely difficult to get to > them. I have spoken with many `implanted' people. Cooper, when visited by these people, and after some preliminary questions, will not let them into his house. A few months back, I was chatting with Bud Hopkins. He indicated that he, personally, was involved with at least 3 people that have had these small round objects removed after a series of alien abductions. They are being studied to determine what they are. He also showed me photos of puncture marks above and to the front of the ear of a lady. This implant was very difficult to get to. Cooper seems to think (correct me if I'm wrong :-) ) that when the secret government takes over, that all implanted earth humans will be used by them, and they greys, to control the rest of the populace. Actually, implants are a very primitive way to monitor/control an earth human. I've heard/seen of technology that is far beyond any of this implant stuff that many of the greys are fond of. ------------------- David W. Jones davidj@wrs.com OR uunet!wrs!davidj ------------------- Path: ns-mx!uunet!hoptoad!rtech!wrs!davidj From: davidj@wrs.com (David Jones) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Mutilations Summary: Linda Moulten-Howe and Cattle Mutilations Keywords: mutilate Message-ID: Date: 5 Sep 91 20:32:10 GMT Sender: usenet@wrs.com (News Manager) Organization: Wind River Systems, Inc. Lines: 87 Nntp-Posting-Host: erra ********************************************************************** After posting several articles and never receiving a response, I discovered that we were receiving the news, but that I could not respond. I hope this has been fixed. Please let me know if you get this. I will repost about nine articles that I did previously. ********************************************************************** I recently spent some time with Linda Moutlen-Howe, who is the public world's leading authority on cattle mutilations. She began her study in the late 70's and early 80's. The first thing she did was to show beyond any doubt whatsoever that this phenomenon was NOT done by Satanists. Specifically, she interviewed a wide variety of Satanists all over the U.S. and showed them photographs and the evidence that she had collected. Without exception, they all said that they did not do anything like this, they had not seen anything like this and did not know who might do this kind of thing. They did admit to an occasional chicken, pig or lamb. But what, pray tell, would they do with the reamed out anus of a cow? Indeed, this is a worldwide phenomenon, with about 20,000 to 30,000 in the U.S. that we know of so far. After determining that it was not the work of some group or cult such as the above, she turned her focus elsewhere. In many cases, the animal was found in snow and without any tracks around it at all. It was as if someone/something had dropped it there from the air. (What group of cultists use helicopters?) In almost all cases, all the fluids were missing, the skin around the mouth, the eyeballs and skin around the eyes, the anus and the genitals were also gone. Linda took skin cuttings from the areas that were lacerated and brought them to a medical surgeon and medical laboratories for examination. The results were that the cuts were made by what could only be described as a laser of some sort. The surgeon (M.D.) was unable to duplicate the incision on some test tissue. The assessment was that we (earth humans) do not currently have the technology, laser or otherwise, that could create such a series of cuts. Basically, the speed at which it must have happened is 3 to 10 times as fast as any known laser. I guess the final nail in the coffin, so to speak, is the eye witness accounts. I was shown video of interviews with Ranchers whose cattle were mutilated and telling what they saw and how it happened. They were on their ranch, looking through binoculars at a UFO that had landed, and out came the proverbial grey aliens, who somehow zapped the cow, and levitated it up a ramp to their silver vehicle. They next they saw of the cow was the standard mutilation. There are many such eye witness accounts. There has been some discussion as to whether this has happened to humans. I spoke with Linda about this. She said that in her dozen or so years of investigation that she had never come across such a case. (This is a relief.) Although, I did chat with a gentleman who used to be a police officer in the midwest, Don Ecker, (he is now married to Vickie Cooper, publisher of UFO Magazine) and he DID see such a thing. When he tried to investigate it, the highest authorities in the Federal government that he could find got back to him and told him that, for his own safety, he should forget the whole thing. Basically, what he learned was that the F.B.I. was covering up any information regarding any inquiries on any kind of human mutilation that is similar in nature to the above cattle mutilations. While I spoke with Linda, a FedEx pouch came in with close-up photographs of the latest mutilations in Virginia, which had happened 10 days before. It is continuing .... Linda has published the only definitive book on the subject: "An Alien Harvest", ISBN 89-091260, $50.00, with photos. In 1983, on HBO, she produced "UFOs: The ET Factor". In addition, she has several videos on the above topic: "A Strange Harvest", 1 hr, $30 or 80 min for $50, or a Booklet $15. And, "Earth Mysteries: Alien Life Forms", a TV documentary for $30. Linda may be reached at: Linda Moulton Howe P.O. Box 538 Huntington Valley, PA 19006-0538 215 938-7869 She is a professional television producer and author. ----------------- David Jones davidj@wrs.com ----------------- Path: ns-mx!uunet!hoptoad!rtech!wrs!davidj From: davidj@wrs.com (David Jones) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Roswell Summary: Something on Roswell Keywords: Roswell Message-ID: Date: 5 Sep 91 20:34:04 GMT Sender: usenet@wrs.com (News Manager) Organization: Wind River Systems, Inc. Lines: 38 Nntp-Posting-Host: erra ********************************************************************** After posting several articles and never receiving a response, I discovered that we were receiving the news, but that I could not respond. I hope this has been fixed. Please let me know if you get this. I will repost about nine articles that I did previously. ********************************************************************** (Duane P Mantick) asks: > What do YOU think happened at Roswell and do you think there may indeed > be other worlds with a form of life at *least* as intelligent as our own? > > Please try to be serious about this - the way the question is worded > is NOT intended to be biased in any way. Read "UFO Crash At Roswell". The movie rights are owned by a friend of a friend who work(s/ed) with Lucas. Perhaps a movie based upon this book in 1 1/2 - 2 years? In addition another friend of a friend just completed a new video with interviews with many witnesses to the goings on regarding the Roswell incident. I have the name and where to get it in my notes somewhere, and, if you ask, ... Over 300 witnesses regarding some aspect of the Roswell incident/cover-up have come forward/out_of_the_closet. The radar from a nearby AF base interfered with the guidance system of an ET craft and it crashed, spreading debris over a large area. The farmers cattle would not go near it. Two weeks later he got the AF involved and the cover-up began. The USAF, the liars, got a crashed saucer and 4 alien bodies, one of which was dissected. There are reports from the base pathologist, eye witness accounts, etc. Read the book, get the video, it's all there ... ------------------- David W. Jones davidj@wrs.com OR uunet!wrs!davidj ------------------- Path: ns-mx!uunet!hoptoad!rtech!wrs!davidj From: davidj@wrs.com (David Jones) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Prophesy Summary: A little on prophesy Keywords: prophesy Message-ID: Date: 5 Sep 91 20:35:22 GMT Sender: usenet@wrs.com (News Manager) Organization: Wind River Systems, Inc. Lines: 55 Nntp-Posting-Host: erra ********************************************************************** After posting several articles and never receiving a response, I discovered that we were receiving the news, but that I could not respond. I hope this has been fixed. Please let me know if you get this. I will repost about nine articles that I did previously. ********************************************************************** References: <1991Aug02.041752.10131@lynx.CS.ORST.EDU> <1991Aug2.223300.5918@rodan.acs.syr.edu> <91219.124511IO10081@MAINE.MAINE.EDU> <1991Aug08.062048.19792@ariel.unm.edu> (Christian G. Smith) writes: > 1998 pops up in alot of places, the least credible of which is the BOB > movement. Their book, the "Book of BOB", is a joke. Literally. I don't know > how much you know about them, but the religion itself is a spoof on religions: > the main goal is to break away from the church and start your own. =) What we're talking about here is prophesy. In Europe, they recently discovered 100 new quantrains of Nostradamus. These were hidden behind a stone wall in a basement of a house that Nostradamus used to live in. Nostradamus indicates in several places many things that will take place in our/my lifetime(s). One is that WWIII (or his envisioning of it) which will have begun by 1997 (he gives the month too). Edgar Cayce said the Messiah would be here by 1998. The Mayans indicated the the world as we know it would no longer be after 2011. On May 4-5 2000, most all of the planets will be in alignment (conjunct) and some seem to think this indicates a big change. Biblical prophesy indicates that (using the 1948 date of Israel statehood as the time the clock starts to tick) that in 1992-3 a bad guy will show up in Europe to bring a false peace to the middle east (how did they know they 2000 years ago?) which would last for 3 1/2 years followed by 3 1/2 years of God knows what (hell most likely). H.G. Wells, who wrote many a prophetic book, wrote a book called In the Days of the Comet. And what's this I hear about a planetoid aimed at earth as described in the Oct. 8th(?) 1990 issue of the NY Times and discussed here as a possible Reptoid invasion? Somewhere in all this are our space brothers/sisters who may help. 67% to 75% of the population will cease to exist. The face of the earth will change (2/3s of Japan will go bye-bye, among other things), I've got a ton of info.... My recommendation? Buy lots of popcorn. It's gonna be one hell of a show! ------------------- David W. Jones davidj@wrs.com OR uunet!wrs!davidj ------------------- Path: ns-mx!uunet!hoptoad!rtech!wrs!davidj From: davidj@wrs.com (David Jones) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: T. L. Rampa Summary: Something about T. L. Rampa Keywords: Rampa Message-ID: Date: 5 Sep 91 20:36:33 GMT Sender: usenet@wrs.com (News Manager) Organization: Wind River Systems, Inc. Lines: 30 Nntp-Posting-Host: erra ********************************************************************** After posting several articles and never receiving a response, I discovered that we were receiving the news, but that I could not respond. I hope this has been fixed. Please let me know if you get this. I will repost about nine articles that I did previously. ********************************************************************** bbs@cellar.UUCP (The Cellar BBS) writes: > T. Lobsang Rampa? Wasn't he that Englishman who claimed to be a > Tibetan holy man? Once wrote that "Einstein, and people like Einstein, said > that the earth was flat?" That Lobsang Rampa? <12118@castle.ed.ac.uk> ercn67@castle.ed.ac.uk (M Holmes) writes: > Didn't I once read somewhere that he was in fact an English accountant > with a fertile imagination? Anyone know the scoop? T. Lobsang Rampa was a walk-in. If you take the time to read his books, he states quite clearly that the entity that inhabited the body to begin with, left, and he, a Tibetan monk, entered. He has written a plethora of books. This guy was a walk-in BEFORE the word `walk-in' was coined. He also says that the original guy's wife was none too happy about the rather dramatic personality switch. Oh well ... ------------------- David W. Jones davidj@wrs.com OR uunet!wrs!davidj ------------------- Path: ns-mx!uunet!hoptoad!rtech!wrs!davidj From: davidj@wrs.com (David Jones) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Semjase and the Pleiadeans Summary: What the Pleiadeans think Keywords: Meier, Semjase, Pleiadean Message-ID: Date: 5 Sep 91 20:37:46 GMT Sender: usenet@wrs.com (News Manager) Organization: Wind River Systems, Inc. Lines: 53 Nntp-Posting-Host: erra ********************************************************************** After posting several articles and never receiving a response, I discovered that we were receiving the news, but that I could not respond. I hope this has been fixed. Please let me know if you get this. I will repost about nine articles that I did previously. ********************************************************************** In many previous articles: > k080093@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Josh Vander Berg) writes: > > >In article <91191.083839JOHNFW@SLACVM.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> JOHNFW@SLACVM.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU writes: > >>In my opinion one of the reasons why science has a hard time finding > >>the missing link and how man evolved on earth is that man is not > >>native of this planet but was brought or came here from other planets > > >Nice theory, too bad it totally ignores scientific fact. If man was > >brought here from another planet, why the heck does he share 99% of his > >genome with chimps? Answer: He EVOLVED from monkeys. The reason they > >can't find any missing link is because things that lived millions of years > >ago are generally pretty damned hard to find evidence of nowadays. I > >suppose though that you will just argue that whoever put humans here > >genetically engineered us to be very similar to apes. Further and further > >into fantasy we tread.... > > The reason why the missing links are so hard to find is that there are > no such links at all. A lot of skeletons of apes and people have been > found, but no 'links' between them, we must come to a conclusion that, > simply, there are no such links. etc. I laugh whenever I see this kind of stuff. Semjase, during some of the 135 physical contacts that she had with Edward `Billy' Meier in Switzerland in the mid `70's described how we, on earth only have 3500 to, maybe 8500 (if you read Sitchen) years history. They, on the other hand, have a history that they can study that goes back 22 million years to the Lyran star system. Since about 1/3 of the population on this planet are ancestors or descendants of the Pleiadeans, then this is, essentially our history as well. Basically, to make a 22,000,000 year story short, 230,000 years ago they came from the Orion Polarity Wars to the planet that is now the asteroid belt as well as Mars. Well, they blew away one planet, blew the atmosphere off Mars and came here creating Lemuria and Atlantis. These too were destroyed after about 35,000 years of peace. But, don't worry, the same entities that did all this destruction are now incarnate on planet earth as the secret government and economic powers. Will history repeat itself? ------------------- David W. Jones davidj@wrs.com OR uunet!wrs!davidj ------------------- Path: ns-mx!uunet!hoptoad!rtech!wrs!davidj From: davidj@wrs.com (David Jones) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Symbols inside UFOs Summary: Yes. Keywords: symbols Message-ID: Date: 5 Sep 91 20:38:54 GMT Sender: usenet@wrs.com (News Manager) Organization: Wind River Systems, Inc. Lines: 21 Nntp-Posting-Host: erra ********************************************************************** After posting several articles and never receiving a response, I discovered that we were receiving the news, but that I could not respond. I hope this has been fixed. Please let me know if you get this. I will repost about nine articles that I did previously. ********************************************************************** <1991Aug7.134131.17818@vicorp.com> mc@vicorp.UUCP (Mark Charalambous) asks: > Does anyone know of any resources which contain pictures or descriptions > of any symbols purported to be seen inside UFOs or on UFO retrieved > material? For instance, the symbols said to be have seen inside the > Roswell saucer. Yes. ------------------- David W. Jones davidj@wrs.com OR uunet!wrs!davidj ------------------- Path: ns-mx!uunet!hoptoad!rtech!wrs!davidj From: davidj@wrs.com (David Jones) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Where to get UFO videos Summary: An address for UFO videos Keywords: videos & UFOs Message-ID: Date: 5 Sep 91 20:40:21 GMT Sender: usenet@wrs.com (News Manager) Organization: Wind River Systems, Inc. Lines: 46 Nntp-Posting-Host: erra ********************************************************************** After posting several articles and never receiving a response, I discovered that we were receiving the news, but that I could not respond. I hope this has been fixed. Please let me know if you get this. I will repost about nine articles that I did previously. ********************************************************************** > Has anyone got a video tape copy of the 9 part series that > George Knapp did for KLAS in Las Vegas, Nevada? After reading > discussions on this news group, I called them for a copy. They > said that they had to refuse, due to the overwhelming demand > for copies. This 9 part series severely overloaded their ability > to dub copies. > > How do "I" get a copy? Can anybody help? Don Christian has several hundred UFO videos available for about $25 each. His (normal everyday run-of-the-mill, voice) phone number is 415 541-5060 to place an order. He has the Knapp videos. Yes. I have seen the videos. I have seen the video of Lazars in-court sentencing for pandering, etc. There is another person in the L.A. area that is supposed to have a huge collection of videos available. I've got it in my notes somewhere. At our next Northern California MUFON meeting Sept. 15th, they are scheduled (I'll beleive it when I see it) to show the third series of Knapp reports done earlier this year. Knapp, or so I am told, has so many leads on this stuff, that he is overwhelmed. In addition, he is being inundated with requests from all over the world. Even my sources find it impossible to spend any time with him (which they have done in the past). I guess he is quickly becoming a celebrity of sorts due to this Bob Lazar -- John Lear -- Area 51 -- Majestic affair(s). Wouldn't it be nice if "60 Minutes" aired this information? How would the people of America react if suddenly they were told we REALLY had a treaty with little grey men from another planet? ---------------- David W. Jones davidj@wrs.com ---------------- Path: ns-mx!uunet!hoptoad!rtech!wrs!davidj From: davidj@wrs.com (David Jones) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Thank you to Don Allen for the Tesla info Summary: I`ve seen it work Keywords: Tesla, DePalma, Free Energy Message-ID: Date: 5 Sep 91 20:42:25 GMT Sender: usenet@wrs.com (News Manager) Organization: Wind River Systems, Inc. Lines: 54 Nntp-Posting-Host: erra ********************************************************************** After posting several articles and never receiving a response, I discovered that we were receiving the news, but that I could not respond. I hope this has been fixed. Please let me know if you get this. I will repost about nine articles that I did previously. ********************************************************************** Don, Thanks for posting those articles about DePalma and Tesla. I spent some time with DePalma at his house in Santa Barbara not too long ago. I was there (in his garage) with about 8 others and received a first-hand demonstration of his electrical free-energy device. Faraday knew about the possibilities in 1831 (I've seen a copy of his diagram) when he drew a picture of a donut shaped magnet with a wire in the middle and a wire at the top. When spinning, it creates an output which is greater in energy than the amount of energy that it takes to spin the magnet. They don`t teach us about this in physics at the universities because the *scientists* can't explain it. Tesla had something similar in 1903, but, and according to a gentleman that I spoke to who worked with Tesla in the late `30's and early 40's, his benefactors, Westinghouse, J. P. Morgan et al, saw no profit in something that was "free". Again in 1933, at a press conference, Tesla indicated that if everyone had access to these devices, that it would mean the economic collapse of the world. (Just think, no more gasoline, no more nuclear power stations, no more electrical companies, no more wars over oil, no more pollution, no more trilateral commission, no more big banks, no more oil tankers, no more noise, ... God, could we stand it?) Keep in mind, Tesla said he received a lot of his ideas from beings that he was in telepathic communication with from the planet Venus (non- physical beings). According to people at Los Alamos, in 1943, the U. S. Government had a free energy device the size of a locomotive. The secret government (was there a secret government in '43?) had it, and the plans for it, destroyed. As I watched, a representative of SRI International hand cranked the large DePalma free energy device. We watched the meters. The amount of energy output was 6 times (that's 600%) that of the energy input. He claimed it would power a small hospital or a small ranch. It cost him $400,000 to produce using some veerrry powerful magnets. He is not the only one with these things. They seem to be popping up all over. Most of the other ones use a similar principle but "only" have a 112% to 160% increase in energy output. It's just a matter of time .... ---------------- David W. Jones davidj@wrs.com ---------------- Path: ns-mx!uunet!fernwood!portal!cup.portal.com!sgraziano From: sgraziano@cup.portal.com (Steve - Graziano) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Alien Dreams Message-ID: <46615@cup.portal.com> Date: 6 Sep 91 05:31:10 GMT References: <1991Sep4.181122.15003@engage.pko.dec.com> <1991Sep5.105215.29395@runx.oz.au> Distribution: usa Organization: The Portal System (TM) Lines: 26 I just wanted to add one of my dreams to this bandwith and see if anyone else had a similar experience. Ok, here it is: Im lying down on a pasture with my grandmother (I think), we were looking up at the starry sky. One star moved in a line towards another star in the sky. They collided into a flurry of what I can only describe as mini-stars which collided to other stars, which blew up into mini-stars. It appeared as a fireworks display in space. At this time I felt terrified, but my grandmother said something that I cannot remember (something about it was eventually going to happen) We both watched the universe explode and I still felt terror at the thought of when a star fragment would hit our sun. Any ideas? I always figured it was just a nightmare but left an impression on me for years. Steven Graziano sgraziano@cup.portal.com Path: ns-mx!uunet!snorkelwacker.mit.edu!hsdndev!dartvax!mars.caps.maine.edu!maine.maine.edu!umasp From: UMASP@MAINE.MAINE.EDU Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Marrs & End of world in 1997? computers tool of Satan? Message-ID: <91248.200330UMASP@MAINE.MAINE.EDU> Date: 6 Sep 91 00:03:30 GMT References: <1991Aug29.020039.29782@netcom.COM> <91242.201929UMASP@MAINE.MAINE.EDU> Organization: University of Maine System Lines: 68 In article , muckenho@occs.alt (Carl Van Muckenhoupt) says: > >In article <91242.201929UMASP@MAINE.MAINE.EDU> UMASP@MAINE.MAINE.EDU writes: > If you take the letters in the word COMPUTER, and assign each one > a value based on the letter's position in the alphabet, and multiply > the result by 6 you get 666. Sound's satanic to me! > > Just in case you don't believe me: > > C = 3 x 6 = 18 > O = 15 x 6 = 90 > M = 13 x 6 = 78 > P = 16 x 6 = 96 > U = 21 x 6 = 126 > T = 20 x 6 = 120 > E = 5 x 6 = 30 > R = 18 x 6 = 108 > ------------------- > Total = 666 > >This is very unprofessional work. You multiply everything by 6. Why? >I am not an expert on Gematria (the Kabbalistic system of numerology >that St. John was probably referring to when he came up with that >number), but still it strikes me that seldom do you go multiplying >arbitrary constants into your answers without a good reason. Excuse my unprofessionalism. I suppose every time I multiply something by the value 3.1415926..... (you know, PI), then I'm then also being unprofessional. Or maybe the value of PI is ok because it really isn't constant. >Especially when the initial result (111) is such a significant >number already. 111 is the number of ALEPH, as well as a bunch of >other good and powerful words, in Hebrew. Thus, to the author(s) of >the Revelation, 111 would signify divine rather that demonic forces. Sure. And if we go by the idea that Christ was born on Dec 25, then that means that he was conceived (so to speak) on or about March 25, which is supposed to be a time of the year with great demonic influences. As for the authors of the Book of Revelations in the Bible, remember, the King James Version of the Bible was commissioned by King James of England in (1652?), not by James the brother of Jesus. Also remember that the Bible in those days (1600's I mean), took on whatever meaning and interpretation the church gave to it, so some of these 'significant' numbers and such may have had nothing to do with the original authors. My information on this matter, by the way, comes from my uncle, who holds a Masters Degree in Theology, and studied the 'real original' transcripts and scrolls from their original hebrew and greek. In case you hadn't figured it out by now, my original posting was meant to be facetious. It was trying to prove that anyone could seemingly make mystical observations about anything they wanted. >Of course I can't vouch for St. John's willingness to accept the >validity of adding up positions in the Roman alphabet as a substitute >for traditional Gematria, so even this interpretation, even though it >is more in line with our experience, is suspect. Why wouldn't St. John have used the Roman alphabet. The Romans had quite an influence on people of that time period. After all, they controlled most of the territory. Well enough bitching about the whole thing. It's obvious you didn't get the subtle kick in the head from my original posting, so I won't waste any more time on it. George Newell umasp@maine.maine.edu Path: ns-mx!uunet!mcsun!hp4nl!tuegate.tue.nl!rw7.urc.tue.nl!wsadjw From: wsadjw@rw7.urc.tue.nl (Jan Willem Nienhuys) Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors Subject: Dates (Re: UFOs and Abductees) Message-ID: <1842@tuegate.tue.nl> Date: 6 Sep 91 06:57:45 GMT References: <1991Sep05.215012.3207@pmafire.inel.gov> Sender: news@tuegate.tue.nl Reply-To: wsadjw@urc.tue.nl Followup-To: sci.skeptic Organization: Eindhoven University of Technology, The Netherlands Lines: 37 Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:14376 alt.alien.visitors:1941 In article Date: 6 Sep 91 09:59:25 GMT References: Organization: system 6626 BBS, Winnipeg MB Lines: 30 sara@nstar.rn.com (Sara Gordon) writes: > boy, am i stupid. :) to Gary with the alien dreams, I MEANT to post "check > out alt.dreams" . Since he is already obviously IN > alt.alien.visitors, I might add that what appears to be a dream could be > reality. Exactly what kind of alien dreams are we talking about here? > > > -- > Sara Gordon > Northern Star 8 line BBS > 219-289-0287/317-251-7391 > internet: sara@nstar.rn.com > uucp: ..!uunet!nstar.rn.com!sara > -= newsfeeds available, contact robert@towers.rn.com =- Well.. the post was for a friend, so I'm not sure exactely what his dreams were like. I'll ask and see what he says. As for the name, not a problem. :) Gerry .. err.. Gary PS: Did anybody out there see a movie called "Hanger 18"? I remember see'ing it in the theatres, and noticed it was on my TV a couple of months ago. Not exactely the greatest film but it was still interesting. --- (Gary Stimpson) a user of sys6626, running waffle 1.64 E-mail: gstimp@sys6626.bison.mb.ca system 6626: 63 point west drive, winnipeg manitoba canada R3T 5G8 Path: ns-mx!uunet!decwrl!pa.dec.com!nntpd.lkg.dec.com!decuk.uvo.dec.com!e2big.mko.dec.com!engage.pko.dec.com!verga.enet.dec.com!stanley From: stanley@verga.enet.dec.com Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Alien Dreams Message-ID: <1991Sep5.200433.15286@engage.pko.dec.com> Date: 6 Sep 91 11:18:59 GMT Sender: newsdaemon@engage.pko.dec.com (USENET News Daemon) Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation Lines: 16 In article <6NBs82w161w@nstar.rn.com>, sara@nstar.rn.com (Sara Gordon) writes... >Please, would you care to elucidate? :) >-- They are mostly about being on board ship... some are more interesting than others. One was about leaving our home planet and another was about coming to Earth. Other's were about visiting other planets and kinds of life forms. They were pretty interesting dreams actually. --- Mary Stanley (INTERNET,UUCP) stanley@verga.enet.dec.com (UUCP) ...!decwrl!verga.enet!stanley (INTERNET) stanley%verga.enet@decwrl.dec.com --- Path: ns-mx!uunet!wupost!usc!rutgers!rochester!pt.cs.cmu.edu!crabapple.srv.cs.cmu.edu!netnews.srv.cs.cmu.edu!gerry From: gerry@frc2.frc.ri.cmu.edu (Gerry Roston) Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: UFOs and Abductees Message-ID: Date: 6 Sep 91 15:21:04 GMT References: <1991Sep05.215012.3207@pmafire.inel.gov> Reply-To: gerry@cs.cmu.edu (Gerry Roston) Organization: Field Robotics Center, CMU Lines: 17 Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:14384 alt.alien.visitors:1944 Nntp-Posting-Host: onion.frc.ri.cmu.edu In-Reply-To: reiser@pmafire.inel.gov's message of 5 Sep 91 21:50:12 GMT World: Has someone been using Steve's account without his knowledge? Today, so far, I have read two articles purportedly by Steve which show the use of incisive reasoning and the acceptance of actual data. -- Gerry Roston (gerry@cs.cmu.edu) | Whenever we read the obscene stories, the Field Robotics Center, | voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and Carnegie Mellon University | torturous executions, the unrelenting Pittsburgh, PA, 15213 | vindictiveness, with which more than half (412) 268-6557 | the bible is filled, it would seem more | consistent that we called it the word of a | demon than the Word of God. It is a | history of wickedness that has served to | corrupt and brutalize mankind... | Thomas Paine Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!caen!nstar!sara From: sara@nstar.rn.com (Sara Gordon) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Alien Dreams Message-ID: Date: 6 Sep 91 16:16:13 GMT References: <1991Sep5.200433.15286@engage.pko.dec.com> Sender: news@news.rn.com (Usenet News) Organization: NSTAR, Indiana's BBS 219-289-0287/317-251-7391 Lines: 26 Nntp-Posting-Host: zztop.rn.com stanley@verga.enet.dec.com writes: > > >-- > > They are mostly about being on board ship... some are more interesting than > others. One was about leaving our home planet and another was about coming > to Earth. Other's were about visiting other planets and kinds of life > forms. They were pretty interesting dreams actually. > > --- > Mary Stanley > --- Would you care to describe the external part of the ships, and if you saw any living creatures in the dream, describe them too. Also, if you dreamt of any planets clearly enough to see the architecture, could you describe that too please? -- Sara Gordon Northern Star 8 line BBS 219-289-0287/317-251-7391 internet: sara@nstar.rn.com uucp: ..!uunet!nstar.rn.com!sara -= newsfeeds available, contact robert@towers.rn.com =- Path: ns-mx!uunet!van-bc!cynic!tz!duckbenw From: duckbenw@tz.wimsey.bc.ca (Duck Benway) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: End of the World Message-ID: Date: 6 Sep 91 14:50:13 GMT References: <9037@cs.tulane.edu> Organization: Somewhere in The Twilight Zone, Van, B.C Lines: 12 goff@pops.navo.navy.mil (Viki Goff) writes: > Dear Readers of alt.alien.visitors: (other stuff deleted) > New agers... you better quit channeling evil spirits or you will > be destroyed. Satan is a whole lot smarter than you are. > Why only yesterday, while having lunch with the Easter Bunny and the Tooth Fairy, I was saying the very same thing. Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sdd.hp.com!spool.mu.edu!uunet!pmafire! From: jeffl@servprod.inel.gov (Jeff Later) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Mutilations Keywords: mutilate Message-ID: <1991Sep06.160554.3040@pmafire.inel.gov> Date: 6 Sep 91 16:05:54 GMT References: Sender: J.B. Later Distribution: na Organization: WINCO Lines: 30 In article davidj@wrs.com (David Jones) writes: >I recently spent some time with Linda Moutlen-Howe, who is the >public world's leading authority on cattle mutilations. >While I spoke with Linda, a FedEx pouch came in with close-up >photographs of the latest mutilations in Virginia, which had >happened 10 days before. It is continuing .... Here's another "Fedex pouch" for you: This was in last night's,(9/5/91), Idaho Falls, Idaho newspaper: "Donnelly Valley County authorities are puzzled by the bizarre death of a horse found mutilated in a pasture near Donnelly. The 14- year old mare was found last Friday lying on its side. All of its blood had been drained. The animal's neck and lips had been cut cleanly. No drops of blood or tracks were found around the carcass and there were no signs of gunshot wounds......." "The incident is the latest in a series of animal mutilations in Idaho, across the country and in other parts of the world, said Linda Moulton Howe, a former Boise resident, who has investigated the subject for 11 years......." _____________________________________________________________________________ ||~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~|~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~|| ||Jeff B. Later WB7TZA (jeffl@pmafire.inel.gov) | "I have become || ||**"Disclaimer, Disclaimer, where's my lawyer!** | comfortably numb" || || | Pink Floyd || ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Path: ns-mx!uunet!decwrl!pa.dec.com!nntpd.lkg.dec.com!engage.pko.dec.com!verga.enet.dec.com!stanley From: stanley@verga.enet.dec.com Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Alien Dreams Message-ID: <1991Sep6.161241.7628@engage.pko.dec.com> Date: 6 Sep 91 18:11:58 GMT Sender: newsdaemon@engage.pko.dec.com (USENET News Daemon) Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation Lines: 18 In article <1991Sep5.105215.29395@runx.oz.au>, jason@runx.oz.au (Jason Haines) writes... >In article <1991Sep4.181122.15003@engage.pko.dec.com> stanley@verga.enet.dec.com writes: >> >outside some kind of shack and talking about the beauty of three moons in >the sky at once. >_______________________________________________________________________ I remember a dream like that too I think, Jason. Most of mine though are about the ship... as if I've been onboard the ship for so long that the ship has become my home. --- Mary Stanley (INTERNET,UUCP) stanley@verga.enet.dec.com (UUCP) ...!decwrl!verga.enet!stanley (INTERNET) stanley%verga.enet@decwrl.dec.com --- Path: ns-mx!uunet!decwrl!pa.dec.com!nntpd.lkg.dec.com!engage.pko.dec.com!verga.enet.dec.com!stanley From: stanley@verga.enet.dec.com Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Implants Message-ID: <1991Sep6.161839.7920@engage.pko.dec.com> Date: 6 Sep 91 18:12:21 GMT Sender: newsdaemon@engage.pko.dec.com (USENET News Daemon) Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation Lines: 19 > >Cooper seems to think (correct me if I'm wrong :-) ) that when the secret >government takes over, that all implanted earth humans will be used by >them, and they greys, to control the rest of the populace. "The best laid plans of Greys and men, so often go astray" :-) In other words... if *we* are not alone in the universe, then chances are.. ... neither are the Greys. They may have a surprise or two in store themselves. --- Mary Stanley (INTERNET,UUCP) stanley@verga.enet.dec.com (UUCP) ...!decwrl!verga.enet!stanley (INTERNET) stanley%verga.enet@decwrl.dec.com --- Path: ns-mx!uunet!decwrl!pa.dec.com!nntpd.lkg.dec.com!engage.pko.dec.com!verga.enet.dec.com!stanley From: stanley@verga.enet.dec.com Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Symbols inside UFOs Message-ID: <1991Sep6.162824.8324@engage.pko.dec.com> Date: 6 Sep 91 18:12:59 GMT Sender: newsdaemon@engage.pko.dec.com (USENET News Daemon) Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation Lines: 19 > >> Does anyone know of any resources which contain pictures or descriptions >> of any symbols purported to be seen inside UFOs or on UFO retrieved >> material? For instance, the symbols said to be have seen inside the >> Roswell saucer. > > Yes. Can you post some of them for us, Dave? I'd appreciate seeing them. Mary --- Mary Stanley (INTERNET,UUCP) stanley@verga.enet.dec.com (UUCP) ...!decwrl!verga.enet!stanley (INTERNET) stanley%verga.enet@decwrl.dec.com --- Path: ns-mx!uunet!decwrl!pa.dec.com!nntpd.lkg.dec.com!engage.pko.dec.com!verga.enet.dec.com!stanley From: stanley@verga.enet.dec.com Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Alien Dreams Message-ID: <1991Sep6.163222.8531@engage.pko.dec.com> Date: 6 Sep 91 18:13:23 GMT Sender: newsdaemon@engage.pko.dec.com (USENET News Daemon) Distribution: usa Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation Lines: 16 In article <46615@cup.portal.com>, sgraziano@cup.portal.com (Steve - Graziano) writes... > >Any ideas? I always figured it was just a nightmare but left an impression on >me for years. > Could be a genetic race memory, Steve. I'll bet it's happened before somewhere... in some time stream... --- Mary Stanley (INTERNET,UUCP) stanley@verga.enet.dec.com (UUCP) ...!decwrl!verga.enet!stanley (INTERNET) stanley%verga.enet@decwrl.dec.com --- Path: ns-mx!uunet!pmafire!reiser From: reiser@pmafire.inel.gov (Steve Reiser) Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: UFOs and Abductees Message-ID: <1991Sep06.182736.2761@pmafire.inel.gov> Date: 6 Sep 91 18:27:36 GMT References: <1991Sep05.215012.3207@pmafire.inel.gov> Organization: Winco Process Development, Idaho Lines: 23 Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:14405 alt.alien.visitors:1952 In article thelar@vesta.unm.edu () writes: >It would appear that you don't believe in life on other planets. >To this let me reply that to think that of the Billions (gazillions, whetever) >of planets, that we are the only ones with intelligent life upon it is: That would be quite an absurd belief. Please explain how you came to such a conclusion based on the original article which merely stated a lack of concrete evidence. It would boggle my mind, if it could be somehow found and verified that we were the only intelligent life (beam me up Scotty) in the Universe. There almost certainly is, however, we have not made any direct publicly known contact with such entities. >1) A thought held by many unintelligent people. True. >2) A defiance of all staticians hold to be true. True. Steve -- Steve Reiser (reiser@pmafire.inel.gov or !uunet!pmafire!reiser) Path: ns-mx!uunet!pmafire!reiser From: reiser@pmafire.inel.gov (Steve Reiser) Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: UFOs and Abductees Message-ID: <1991Sep06.190434.3695@pmafire.inel.gov> Date: 6 Sep 91 19:04:34 GMT References: <1991Sep05.215012.3207@pmafire.inel.gov> Organization: Winco Process Development, Idaho Lines: 15 Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:14410 alt.alien.visitors:1953 In article gerry@cs.cmu.edu (Gerry Roston) writes: >World: > >Has someone been using Steve's account without his knowledge? Today, >so far, I have read two articles purportedly by Steve which show the >use of incisive reasoning and the acceptance of actual data. No. This is the same Steve who has posted all along. Steve -- Steve Reiser (reiser@pmafire.inel.gov or !uunet!pmafire!reiser) Path: ns-mx!uunet!decwrl!pa.dec.com!datum.nyo.dec.com!nntpd.lkg.dec.com!engage.pko.dec.com!verga.enet.dec.com!stanley From: stanley@verga.enet.dec.com Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Alien Dreams Message-ID: <1991Sep6.192445.15742@engage.pko.dec.com> Date: 6 Sep 91 20:30:45 GMT Sender: newsdaemon@engage.pko.dec.com (USENET News Daemon) Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation Lines: 47 In article , sara@nstar.rn.com (Sara Gordon) writes... > >Would you care to describe the external part of the ships, and if you saw >any living creatures in the dream, describe them too. Also, if you dreamt >of any planets clearly enough to see the architecture, could you describe >that too please? My dreams were all of the inside... the closest I got to the outside of the ship was an observation deck that circled the entire ship. It was totally transparent from the inside... like a two way mirror.. it even had benches and a fountain. At that point, we were based on Earth and all I could see outside was ice and snow... ice and snow. The living creatures looked like me actually... like regular people. The corridors and sleeping quarters were very simple... some kind of grey material.. it glowed with a dim diffuse light... the corridors were long.. there were classrooms where we learned about the cultures and customs. Of the places we went... they weren't all planets in space... Some were... In one dream, Jarrick and I walked down a long, grey corridor until we reached a door. He opened the door and outside was a universe that was all made of light... beautiful, bright and beautiful.. colored light. He asked me if I was ready and I backed against the wall because I was afraid to step outside.. I had never gone without a body before. He said that he thought I was ready and asked if I'd go if he went with me... I took his hand and we stepped outside and... suddenly I didn't have a body.. I was made of light. I could hear Jarrick's voice in my mind as always though... not having a body didn't make any difference. He asked if I was ok and I said I was.. just a little freaked out. As I settled down, I gradually grew to realize that the other lights were separate individual beings... and they were laughing at me. :-) ... that was a GREAT dream.. I really liked that one. --- Mary Stanley (INTERNET,UUCP) stanley@verga.enet.dec.com (UUCP) ...!decwrl!verga.enet!stanley (INTERNET) stanley%verga.enet@decwrl.dec.com --- Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!usc!rutgers!cbmvax!amix!anuurn!ffoire From: ffoire@anuurn.UUCP (Jeff Orrok) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Roswell Message-ID: <373@anuurn.UUCP> Date: 6 Sep 91 21:41:26 GMT References: <1991Aug27.052450.12857@colorado.edu> Organization: the Hani homeworld. (Wilmette, IL) Lines: 47 > I would very much like to hear the reasoning behind your statement that > if an alien culture could master interstellar travel, then they would > have no problems with respect to food or medicine. > > Thanks - Brian 1) compare the complexity of food production to that of space travel One human can farm, perform breeding experiments, or develop a vaccine, but how many does it take to develop anything more than the simplest of water or aircraft? Even Noah had help with the ark. I am assuming that it is easier to deal with things with which one is familiar. Food and health are of immediate concern, travelling the infinite voids of space is not. 2) note all of the precautions against possible contaminants taken by the lunar missions. War of the Worlds is hilarious because the aliens are so clever to build all their ships and weapons and then fail to keep our atmosphere out of them. What, weren't there any bacteria where they come from? How did their airlocks survive the long trip through space? Ok, now, here we have these grays and nords running around without any protection -- if they can handle all of our germs so successfully, they probably got that skill from being able to first handle the ones that they evolved alongside. Furthermore, the only way we'd serve as useful medicinal sources is for our biology to be sufficiently close to theirs, so why travel hundreds of light-years when you can just do it at home? Would you like to suggest that their animal-rights activists successfully prevented them from using their analog of the rat? Why would they then tolerate the use of us? 3) Which is easier, performing population control, or searching a practically infinite universe for a planet which meets the long list of requirements that your species has for survival (much less prosperity)? Pop.ctrl-- food req: 0, structural req: minimal, technology: low-medium, time req: low, chance of success: >95% Planet prospecting-- food req: lots, structural req: lots, technology: high/very high, time req: very high, chance of success: <5% We can't even detect any planets outside our own solar system, except maybe for one orbiting a pulsar 350 (million?) light-years away. (As an aside, can anyone tell me how far one of our TV transmissions will travel before the signal strength falls below that of the background radiation of the cosmos?) Well, this will have to do for now. I have to finish cleaning my apartment; Semjase really hates it when I leave empty beer bottles on the coffee table :-) -- "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need" -- marx "From each according to his naivete, to each according to his greed" -- me --ffoire@anuurn.home.nwu.edu --ffoire@anuurn.chi.il.us Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!caen!nstar!sara From: sara@nstar.rn.com (Sara Gordon) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Alien Dreams Message-ID: Date: 7 Sep 91 06:59:19 GMT References: <1991Sep6.192445.15742@engage.pko.dec.com> Sender: news@news.rn.com (Usenet News) Organization: NSTAR, Indiana's BBS 219-289-0287/317-251-7391 Lines: 10 Nntp-Posting-Host: zztop.rn.com Mary Stanley---could you describe if you would the beings that were made of light? thank you! -- Sara Gordon Northern Star 8 line BBS 219-289-0287/317-251-7391 internet: sara@nstar.rn.com uucp: ..!uunet!nstar.rn.com!sara -= newsfeeds available, contact robert@towers.rn.com =- Path: ns-mx!uunet!wupost!uwm.edu!linac!att!csn!scicom!paranet!p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG!Michael.Corbin From: Michael.Corbin@p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Michael Corbin) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Ufos And Abductees Message-ID: <74808.28C860C7@paranet.FIDONET.ORG> Date: 7 Sep 91 04:16:00 GMT Sender: ufgate@paranet.FIDONET.ORG (newsout1.26) Organization: FidoNet node 1:104/428.0 - In the mid-1960s I had strong interest which I dropped because not one > shred of convincing evidence came forth to indicate that unidentified > flying objects were in fact the space craft of extraterrestrial beings. > To my knowledge this is still the current state of affairs on the > subject. Many astounding stories have been published since World War > II, yet not one concrete piece of evidence has come forth to verify that > the supposed intellignetly guided crafts exists. The same goes for the > stories of people being abducted. If individuals have been abducted > what evidence is there that they are not making it up. (Lie detector > tests, separate interviews of those claiming to have shared an > experience, etc.) Yes, but what would it take to convince you that sightings represent a phenomena which should be studied? Unfortunately, there is nothing in the way of hard evidence other than some scraps of UFOs which have allegedly blown up. Scientific study yielded that the material was not uncommon to this Earth. On the same note, there have been some very good landing trace cases studied around the world, particularly in France. Although this does not lead conclusively to evidence of where they come from, it leaves a large question open as to what they are, and that UFOs in their most mundane definition do exist. Mike -- Michael Corbin - via FidoNet node 1:104/422 UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name INTERNET: Michael.Corbin@p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!sdd.hp.com!caen!uwm.edu!linac!att!csn!scicom!paranet!p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG!Michael.Corbin From: Michael.Corbin@p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Michael Corbin) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Aliens: The Big _lie_ !!! Message-ID: <74807.28C860C5@paranet.FIDONET.ORG> Date: 7 Sep 91 04:11:00 GMT Sender: ufgate@paranet.FIDONET.ORG (newsout1.26) Organization: FidoNet node 1:104/428.0 - "CETK"???? Please forgive me. I live in Idaho, where we are still > getting > re-runs "My Favorite Martian"! I am not familiar with this film. Is it > a > recent release? When was it made, and is it out on tape yet?? Forgive the shoptalk. CETK is Close Encounters of the Third Kind. Mike -- Michael Corbin - via FidoNet node 1:104/422 UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name INTERNET: Michael.Corbin@p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG Path: ns-mx!uunet!mcsun!ukc!stl!stc!fsb From: fsb@tcom.stc.co.uk (Frank Stuart Brown) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Semjase and the Pleiadeans Message-ID: <1991Sep7.101027.20300@tcom.stc.co.uk> Date: 7 Sep 91 10:10:27 GMT References: Sender: news@tcom.stc.co.uk (System Administration) Reply-To: fsb@tcom.stc.co.uk (Frank Stuart Brown) Organization: STC Telecomms, New Southgate, London, N11 1HB Lines: 29 In article davidj@wrs.com (David Jones) writes: > >I laugh whenever I see this kind of stuff. Semjase, during some of the 135 >physical contacts that she had with Edward `Billy' Meier in Switzerland in >the mid `70's described how we, on earth only have 3500 to, maybe 8500 >(if you read Sitchen) years history. They, on the other hand, have a >history that they can study that goes back 22 million years to the Lyran >star system. Since about 1/3 of the population on this planet are >ancestors or descendants of the Pleiadeans, then this is, essentially >our history as well. Basically, to make a 22,000,000 year story short, >230,000 years ago they came from the Orion Polarity Wars to the planet >that is now the asteroid belt as well as Mars. Well, they blew away one >planet, blew the atmosphere off Mars and came here creating Lemuria and >Atlantis. These too were destroyed after about 35,000 years of peace. >But, don't worry, the same entities that did all this destruction are >now incarnate on planet earth as the secret government and economic >powers. Will history repeat itself? > Quel un croc du merde! -- --------------------------------------------------- Frank Stuart-Brown, Dept 31700, Customer Services, || !mcsun!ukc!stc!fsb Tel +44 81 945 2608 || +44 924 870838 Path: ns-mx!uunet!mcsun!ukc!stl!stc!fsb From: fsb@tcom.stc.co.uk (Frank Stuart Brown) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Prophesy Message-ID: <1991Sep7.102608.20497@tcom.stc.co.uk> Date: 7 Sep 91 10:26:08 GMT References: Sender: news@tcom.stc.co.uk (System Administration) Reply-To: fsb@tcom.stc.co.uk (Frank Stuart Brown) Organization: STC Telecomms, New Southgate, London, N11 1HB Lines: 19 >********************************************************************** >H.G. Wells, who wrote many a prophetic book, wrote a book called In the Days of >the Comet. And what's this I hear about a planetoid aimed at earth as >a possible Reptoid invasion? Has anyone read 'My contact with flying Saucers' by DINO KRASPEDON, it was published sometime in the late sixties, gave details on how UFO's flew and also contained a chapter about a planetoid heading for the solar system around the turn of the millenium! We may end up with two moons if this planetoid passes earth on the correct side otherwise we will be in for trouble......so says DINO. -- --------------------------------------------------- Frank Stuart-Brown, Dept 31700, Customer Services, || !mcsun!ukc!stc!fsb Tel +44 81 945 2608 || +44 924 870838 Path: ns-mx!uunet!cis.ohio-state.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!lll-winken!iggy.GW.Vitalink.COM!widener!gvlf3.gvl.unisys.com!tredysvr!cellar!revpk From: revpk@cellar.UUCP (Brian 'Rev P-K' Siano) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: T. L. Rampa Keywords: Rampa Message-ID: Date: 7 Sep 91 03:10:08 GMT References: Sender: bbs@cellar.UUCP (The Cellar BBS) Organization: The Cellar BBS and public access system Lines: 41 davidj@wrs.com (David Jones) writes: > ********************************************************************** > After posting several articles and never receiving a response, I > discovered that we were receiving the news, but that I could not > respond. I hope this has been fixed. Please let me know if you > get this. I will repost about nine articles that I did previously. > ********************************************************************** > > bbs@cellar.UUCP (The Cellar BBS) writes: > > > T. Lobsang Rampa? Wasn't he that Englishman who claimed to be a > > Tibetan holy man? Once wrote that "Einstein, and people like Einstein, said > > that the earth was flat?" That Lobsang Rampa? > > <12118@castle.ed.ac.uk> ercn67@castle.ed.ac.uk (M Holmes) writes: > > > Didn't I once read somewhere that he was in fact an English accountant > > with a fertile imagination? Anyone know the scoop? > > T. Lobsang Rampa was a walk-in. If you take the time to read his books, he > states quite clearly that the entity that inhabited the body to begin with, > left, and he, a Tibetan monk, entered. He has written a plethora of books. > This guy was a walk-in BEFORE the word `walk-in' was coined. He also says > that the original guy's wife was none too happy about the rather dramatic > personality switch. Oh well ... > > ------------------- > David W. Jones > davidj@wrs.com OR > uunet!wrs!davidj > ------------------- Check out Martin Gardner's book "The New Age: Notes of a Fringe watcher" for further relevant info on Rampa. """""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" Brian Siano, Delaware Valley Skeptics Rev. Philosopher-King of The First Church of the Divine Otis Redding revpk@Cellar.UUCP "Ecrasez l'enfame!" - Voltaire """""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!lll-winken!iggy.GW.Vitalink.COM!widener!gvlf3.gvl.unisys.com!tredysvr!cellar!revpk From: revpk@cellar.UUCP (Brian 'Rev P-K' Siano) Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: UFOs and Abductees Message-ID: Date: 7 Sep 91 02:54:33 GMT References: Sender: bbs@cellar.UUCP (The Cellar BBS) Organization: The Cellar BBS and public access system Lines: 21 Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:14450 alt.alien.visitors:1962 gerry@frc2.frc.ri.cmu.edu (Gerry Roston) writes: > World: > > Has someone been using Steve's account without his knowledge? Today, > so far, I have read two articles purportedly by Steve which show the > use of incisive reasoning and the acceptance of actual data. > > -- > Gerry Roston (gerry@cs.cmu.edu) | Whenever we read the obscene stories, the > Field Robotics Center, | voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and He's been channelling a superior intelligence, obviously. (Hasn't quite got the atheist/agnostic division bit knocked yet, so it can't be THAT superior.) """""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" Brian Siano, Delaware Valley Skeptics Rev. Philosopher-King of The First Church of the Divine Otis Redding revpk@Cellar.UUCP "Ecrasez l'enfame!" - Voltaire """""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" Path: ns-mx!uunet!cbmvax!amix!vanth!jms From: jms@vanth.UUCP (Jim Shaffer) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Our Moon Part 1 Message-ID: Date: 7 Sep 91 16:13:59 GMT References: <46422@cup.portal.com> <1991Sep4.010632.20064@bilver.uucp> Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence Lines: 25 In article <1991Sep4.010632.20064@bilver.uucp> dona@bilver.uucp (Don Allen) writes: > >Wonder how many of the Govt PAID Debunkers,net.pinheads jump on this one? :-) Well I'm not with the government, nor am I a net.pinhead, but I could swear that I've never read anything that implied that the Mare Crisium bridge is still visible, other than that article. Nevertheless as I said in a recent article I'm going to try to check it out sometime. >I heard from a reliable source that our wonderful Govt has satellites in >orbit that can actually _tap into a channeling session_...in fact, I >know of a particular case where a woman was channelling an entity and the >Govt *broke into* the channelling session through the woman and wanted to know >some details..in fact, they even identified themselves as such. Is this reliable source the channeler or the government? If the former, I'm still not convinced that most channeled information isn't coming from the channeler's own head. If the latter, how do you know they're not doing the Bennewitz thing to YOU now? :-) -- * From the disk of: |>>>>> back at the old feed <<<<<| We're only immortal Jim Shaffer, Jr. | uunet!cbmvax!amix!vanth!jms | for a limited time. 37 Brook Street | jms%vanth@amix.commodore.com | Montgomery, PA 17752 | 72750.2335@compuserve.com | (Rush, "Dreamline") Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!caen!nstar!towers!npal!sbrant From: sbrant@uucp Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: test Message-ID: <84@uucp> Date: 7 Sep 91 20:37:13 GMT Organization: PalNet - (Indy) New Palestine, Indiana Lines: 1 test please ignore. Path: ns-mx!uunet!spool.mu.edu!cs.umn.edu!talon!orstcs!jacobs.CS.ORST.EDU!woodc From: woodc@jacobs.CS.ORST.EDU (Major Havok) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Opinions Message-ID: <1991Sep08.122209.27201@usenet@CS.ORST.EDU> Date: 8 Sep 91 12:22:09 GMT Sender: @usenet@CS.ORST.EDU Organization: C.S. Dept, Oregon State University, Corvallis Lines: 87 Nntp-Posting-Host: jacobs.cs.orst.edu Well, it has been quite some time since I have contributed anything to this newsgroup, so I thought that I would bless you all (ha ha) with my opinions about the universe. Once again, these are *only* my views. If you have have any critisism, please be polite... I hate smart-ass remarks and 'know-it-all' attitudes. The universe, by my definition, is a set of lines of a finite or infinite number (quantity isn't all that important right now) in which matter can exist on. As an illustration, imagine a universe that consists of an infinite number of these lines running along an X, a Y, and a Z axis (3 dimensional). With this in mind, there are basicly two ways to define matter: 1) Matter is an anomaly existing somewhere along a single line. 2) Matter IS the juncture between these lines. (Or you could also think of it as a cross between these two definitions, that matter is an anomaly that exists and can only exist at the jucture of the lines running along the X,Y, and Z axis') These 'anomalies' may be thought of as waves or ripples along a line (from this point on I will try to refer to these 'lines' as 'threads'). For now I will assume that matter is an anomaly that only exists at the juncture of these threads that run along various axis'. This idea somewhat fits in with the string theory of matter. I do not wish to go into discussing the 'string theory' specificly right now, so we'll move along. If these lines do exist and if they could be manipulated, then they could be used to defeat the great 'light-speed' barrier. If you think about the definition for speed, you find that it's the distance traveled over a period of time. But what if you have the power to change the distance between two points? Then you can travel at seemingly greater than light-speed. Exactly how you would manipulate these threads, I do not know. But it is my belief that it is possible. If you were to sever these threads at certain locations and then 'bend' these threads so that you have one set of threads that form a doughnut shape and that the other set of severed thread join together to bridge the gap, then you would accomplish two things at the same time. The first usefull thing that you would accomplish is that the matter that occupied the space that 'bent' into a doughnut shape would seemingly vanish from this universe (this sounds amazingly like the Philidelphia Experiment and the phenomenon associated with the Bermuda Triangle) and into it's own little 'pocket'. The second thing that you would accomplish is a reduction in the distance between what was on side A of the section of space that has been 'removed' and whatever was on side B. As an illustration, let's assume that the universe does exist in a perfectly cubical universe (that there are an X,Y, and a Z axis all perfectly perpendicular to each other) and that our moon at one given point in time were to exist exactly 100,000 'units' away from us in the X axis with our current location occupying coordinates 0,0,0 , then if we were to sever the threads that run along the X axis with the first X axis coordinate to be severed being coordinate #1 and the second coordinate to be severed being coordinate #99,999, then we would have succeeded in ruducing the distance between our present location on Earth and the moon down to a distance of 2 'units' and we would have also succeeded in puting whatever occupied the other 99,998 'units' of space into a 'pocket'. As support for my belief that these lines exist, consider this; Light supposedly slows down to just under the 'speed-of-light' when it enters a gravitational field, and then supposedly returns to light-speed once it leave the gravitational field (sorry, I don't have references handy). (If you want to get technical, light never really leaves a gravitational field, but I think you get the idea). Anyway, this doesn't seem logical that a particle would slow down and then speed up again without the influence of some other particle. But then again, think about the definition of speed. Perhaps the light particle never slowed down, but the distance that it had to travel (in raw 'units') had increased per area of what we perceive as distance. Assuming that gravity and magnetism are based on the same idea as these threads, then you might envision a gravitational field as being an alteration of the 'distances' between the junctures of these threads. The *true* distance of space would be measured by the number of junctures per area of what we perceive distance to be (inches, feet, meters, etc..). If a gravitational field were to compress the 'distances' between these junctures, and if matter can only exist at these junctures, then a light particle would have more junctures to cross in a given period of time in what we perceive space to be, thus light appears to reduce velocity when it enters a gravitational field. Another interesting possibility if these threads do exist is that parallel universe can exist in the same perceived space as our own universe. A parallel universe would consist of the same type of threads arranged in the same fashion, but not having any junctures with the threads that make up this universe. I have many other thoughts on this matter, but I think that's enough for now. Once again, these are only my opinions, not neccessarily fact. No one is responsible for the contents of this posting other than myself. Any similarities between my opinions and anyone else's opinions is purely coincidental. -- +---------------------------+----------------------------------------------+ | Chris Wood | "If you can't convince them, confuse them." | | woodc@jacobs.cs.orst.edu | -unknown | +---------------------------+----------------------------------------------+ Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!mips!spool.mu.edu!cs.umn.edu!msi.umn.edu!math.fu-berlin.de!fub!einoed!aball!zelator@in-berlin.de!leo From: leo@zelator.uucp (Stefan Hartmann) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal Subject: free energy from Reed Magnetic Motor ??? Summary: free energy technology Keywords: free energy Message-ID: Date: 7 Sep 91 17:17:08 GMT Distribution: alt Organization: Puplic-Access-Xenix Lines: 64 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:1966 alt.paranormal:2911 Inventor Troy Reed claims Magnetic Motor to be a free energy source ! Hi, I just got the video tape of the Troy REED Magnetic Motor Company from Tulsa Oklahoma, which showed a demonstration of their Magnetic Motor. Looks pretty impressive ! Mr. Reed is starting the Motor, a four cylinder crunkshaft supported magnetic design, by a car-battery supported 12 Volts DC motor and is feeding the output of his Magnetic Motor into a 110 Volts AC generator(mecha- nicly via a belt). With his 110 Volts output-power generator he also feeds some appliances like a drill machine or some bulbs or is lightning a chrismas tree. There is also a converter hooked onto the 110 Volts output that converts the 110 Volts AC to 12 Volts DC. With this "Battery charger" he is powering his starter motor and the car battery so that the car battery is recharged again. In operation the Reed Magnetic Motor is running at about 300 to 500 rpm, dependend on the crankshaft unit he is using. At this rpm the starter motor works as a generator and also delivers power back to the 12 Volts car battery ! In this demonstration tape it was claimed this is a free energy device. Now my question: Has anybody from Tulsa or somewhere else from the US al- ready seen a longer demonstration of the operation of this motor ? So this is a first summary of my first impression on the REED Magnetic Motor. Anyway, if You netlanders out there have had a better chance to see it yet, please let me know. -Stefan Hartmann. P.S.: Here comes the adress of the Reed Magnetic Company for those of You who might want to contact them: Reed Magnetic Motor Inc. 9503 E. 55th Place Tulsa, Oklahoma 74145, USA mailing adress: P.O.Box 471613 Tulsa, OK 74147-1613, USA Phone: (918)-664-0100 They charge 15 US$ for the tape + shipping cost. -- ******************************************************************************* * Stefan Hartmann This is how to contact me: * * EMAIL: leo@zelator.in-berlin.de or Stefan_Hartmann@b.maus.de * * COMPUSERVE: 72017,3216 GEnie: S.HARTMANN * * Phone : ++ 49 30 344 23 66 FAX : ++ 49 30 344 92 79 * * Phone II : ++49 30 721 94 66 FAX II: ++ 49 30 721 56 92 * ******************************************************************************** Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!cis.ohio-state.edu!pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu!linac!att!cbnewsh!wcs From: wcs@cbnewsh.cb.att.com (Bill Stewart 908-949-0705 erebus.att.com!wcs) Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,alt.alien.visitors,alt.slack Subject: Re: MUFON Application Message-ID: <1991Sep8.214909.4700@cbnewsh.cb.att.com> Date: 8 Sep 91 21:49:09 GMT References: <9108272015.AA06664@echidna.swdc.stratus.com> Organization: Sorcerer's Apprentice Cleaning Services Lines: 17 Xref: ns-mx alt.conspiracy:6921 alt.alien.visitors:1967 alt.slack:1180 In article <9108272015.AA06664@echidna.swdc.stratus.com> lpb@STRATUS.SWDC.STRATUS.COM (Len Bucuvalas) writes: ] Can anyone tell me how to get an application to the locasl MUFON chapter? ] I live in the Pleasonton, California area. Just a few miles up the road from you is an organization with a barbed-wire fence around its campus, 3-foot-diameter lasers, and a 5-story high abandoned magnet. If they don't know the real story, know body around does...... And don't let them tell you any stories about the field of rotating sculptures with cattle underneath their fast-moving blades being for "electrical research" - it's clearly a signal to .... them. -- Pray for peace; Bill # Bill Stewart 908-949-0705 erebus.att.com!wcs AT&T Bell Labs 4M-312 Holmdel NJ # "After all, the 'good of society' is based upon the 'rights of the individual.' # Not the other way around, IMHO." -- Chris Preston Path: ns-mx!uunet!cis.ohio-state.edu!sei.cmu.edu!fs7.ece.cmu.edu!crabapple.srv.cs.cmu.edu!andrew.cmu.edu!fl0p+ From: fl0p+@andrew.cmu.edu (Frank T Lofaro) Newsgroups: alt.paranormal,sci.energy,sci.environment,sci.physics,sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: free energy from Reed Magnetic Motor ??? Message-ID: <8cmj6pe00VouM6WXUE@andrew.cmu.edu> Date: 9 Sep 91 03:59:49 GMT References: Organization: Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA Lines: 8 Xref: ns-mx alt.paranormal:2920 sci.energy:5963 sci.environment:10155 sci.physics:12992 sci.skeptic:14514 alt.alien.visitors:1968 In-Reply-To: That *definately* seems like it would not work, due to the conservation of energy law (and the is no chance for mass to energy conversion) here. I heard of something called the Newman motor, which uses high voltage spikes nad induction effects (something about cutting off current to a coil, getting the voltage spike, but doing in such a way that the mass of the elctrons goes to energy) This seems more possible, but I am not at all sure that it works. Path: ns-mx!uunet!sugar!rperkins From: rperkins@Sugar.NeoSoft.com (Rodney Perkins) Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,alt.alien.visitors Subject: Attention all "fringe" groups Keywords: Looking for "fringe" groups to partcipate in possible convention Message-ID: <1991Sep9.081016.22269@Sugar.NeoSoft.com> Date: 9 Sep 91 08:10:16 GMT Distribution: usa Organization: Sugar Land Unix -- Houston, TX Lines: 12 Xref: ns-mx alt.conspiracy:6930 alt.alien.visitors:1969 I am in the thinking stages of organizing a sort of "fringe" convention here in Houston. In this way, I mean UFO groups, non-popular religious organizations, conspiracy theorists, etc. For the moment, though, I am interested in corresponding with anyone who thinks they might be interested in participating in such an event. I welcome all mail and correspondence. Especially interested in MUFON, Subgenius types, and conspiracy theorists (no quasi-Nazis, though). -- Rodney Perkins (RPERKINS@Sugar.NeoSoft.com) "Post-Logic defies all logic" Path: ns-mx!uunet!decwrl!pa.dec.com!shodha.enet.dec.com!timpson From: timpson@shodha.enet.dec.com (Steve Timpson) Newsgroups: alt.paranormal,sci.energy,sci.environment,sci.physics,sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: free energy from Reed Magnetic Motor ??? Message-ID: <4033@shodha.enet.dec.com> Date: 9 Sep 91 13:50:48 GMT Sender: news@shodha.enet.dec.com Followup-To: alt.paranormal Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation Lines: 5 Xref: ns-mx alt.paranormal:2926 sci.energy:5969 sci.environment:10157 sci.physics:12997 sci.skeptic:14522 alt.alien.visitors:1970 In article <8cmj6pe00VouM6WXUE@andrew.cmu.edu>, fl0p+@andrew.cmu.edu (Frank T Lofaro) writes... >I heard of something called the Newman motor This has already been debuncked ad a fraud. for get it. Path: ns-mx!uunet!mcsun!ukc!dcl-cs!gdt!aber!aro From: aro@aber.ac.uk (Andrew Ormsby) Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors Subject: Crop circles are a hoax. Summary: Bower and Chorley did it. Message-ID: <1991Sep9.133407.6311@aber.ac.uk> Date: 9 Sep 91 13:34:07 GMT Sender: aro@aber.ac.uk (Andrew Ormsby) Followup-To: sci.skeptic Organization: CS Dept, University College of Wales, Aberystwyth Lines: 94 Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:14528 alt.paranormal:2930 alt.alien.visitors:1971 Today's "Today" newspaper (a UK national tabloid) exposes corn circles as a hoax. The story is the lead on page 1, and there is accompanying information explaining how the hoax is carried out inside. The perpetrators are Doug Bower and Dave Chorley, both in their sixties. They've been creating circles for 13 years. Some quotes from the newspaper articles: "Corn circle expert Patrick Delgado [author of 'Circular Evidence' and 'The Latest Evidence'] admitted last night 'We have all been conned. Thousands of lives are going to be wrecked over this'." "The mystery of the corn circles -- which has baffled experts for more than a decade -- is today exposed as nothing more than a hoax by two artists. "After a week-long investigation, we can reveal that Douglas Bower and David Chorley, two men in their 60s, have been successfully fooling the experts for years. "And last night, they destroyed the myths that have built up around the strange circles, which have been appearing in corn fields since the late Seventies. "Under cross-examination, the two men have told a completely consistent story of how they made the circles in fields across the south of England. "Every part of their evidence has stood up to scrutiny. "Then TODAY secretly arrangesd for them to create the ultiate corn circle design in a field in Kent. "But the most damning evidence of all came when self-professed expert, Pat Delgado examined the circle and said: 'In no way could this be a hoax. This is without doubt the most wonderful moment of my research'. "However, just hours before Mr Delgado's visit to the field, we had watched as the two men had step-by-step demonstrated their method of making the corn circles." The rest of the article spends some time poking fun at Mr Delgado and also explains how the two men constructed the circles. Each circle pattern was meticulously planned in advance. They used two planks of wood attached to some reins. They used the planks to lay the corn down delicately in a circular process (starting from the centre of the circle). They entered fields by following the tyre tracks of tractors used for crop spraying. They used a wire sight on a baseball cap to help them produce straight lines by sighting on objects on the edge of the fields such as trees. The article goes on to say: "Amazingly, the entire scam was dreamed up by two men in a pub. "Doug said: 'I lived in Australia from 1958 to 1966 and during that time there were a few circles farmers put in crops in Queensland as a joke." After meeting in a pub, they decided on making some circles as "a bit of a laugh". They started off with simple circles and built up from there once there started to be some publicity. "Then all of a sudden, we saw an article in the local paper and then articles in the national papeers and we knew we had done it. "We heard this bloke Delgado had reported them -- this was the first time we had heard of him. "When we heard he had worked at NASA in Australia we were even more pleased. He started saying they had been done by a "superior intelligence" -- we liked the sound of that. We laughed so much that we had to stop the car and pull into a lay-by...". "The circles at Cheesefoot Head were described as "sensational" in Delgado and Andrew's book, Circular Evidence. It was important, they said, theat there were no well-defined tramlines nearby. But Doug and Dave had simply used their high-stepped loping walk to get through the corn. Later they became less careful. 'Even if we were clumsy and caused a mess, they were so keen on dismissing that humans had done it that they explained it away by saying "Oh the first onlooker must have done that"' Doug said." The article ends by saying that the newspaper paid no money for the story. ----- Further comment seems unecessary. Andy Ormsby aro@cs.aber.ac.uk Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!mips!spool.mu.edu!munnari.oz.au!metro!ipso!runxtsa!jason From: jason@runx.oz.au (Jason Haines) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: The Mars Pyramid Message-ID: <1991Sep9.130411.9516@runx.oz.au> Date: 9 Sep 91 13:04:11 GMT Sender: jason@runx.oz.au (Jason Haines) Organization: RUNX Un*x Timeshare. Sydney, Australia. Lines: 11 Has there been any progress with respect to the Martian face and other structures? Also, would a pyramidal structure be capable of focusing gravity waves? -- Jason Haines, aka Baron INTERNET:jason@runxtsa.runx.oz.au UUCP: uunet!runxtsa.runx.oz.au!jason ACSNet: jason@runxtsa.runx.oz _______________________________________________________________________ Path: ns-mx!uunet!decwrl!pa.dec.com!nntpd.lkg.dec.com!vcsesu.enet.dec.com!cook From: cook@vcsesu.enet.dec.com (Peter R. Cook) Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Crop circles are a hoax. Message-ID: <27178@nntpd.lkg.dec.com> Date: 9 Sep 91 18:32:39 GMT Sender: news@nntpd.lkg.dec.com Followup-To: sci.skeptic Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation Lines: 16 Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:14549 alt.paranormal:2934 alt.alien.visitors:1973 In article <1991Sep9.133407.6311@aber.ac.uk>, aro@aber.ac.uk (Andrew Ormsby) writes... >Today's "Today" newspaper (a UK national tabloid) exposes corn circles >as a hoax. The story is the lead on page 1, and there is accompanying >information explaining how the hoax is carried out inside. I don't believe it. Explain the circles that have appeared in Asia, Canada, and America. Peter R. Cook | Disclaimer: "Quoth the Raven, eat my shorts man!" Digital Equip. Corp. +-------------------------------------------------- Marlboro, MA. | "1984 has past, forget about Big Brother, welcome 508-467-6936 | to the 90's where the government's your mother!" ~ The opinions expressed above are the author's only and do not reflect the ~ ~ opinions or anything else of Digital Equipment Corporation. ~ Path: ns-mx!uunet!decwrl!pa.dec.com!nntpd.lkg.dec.com!engage.pko.dec.com!verga.enet.dec.com!stanley From: stanley@verga.enet.dec.com Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Alien Dreams Message-ID: <1991Sep9.153038.4269@engage.pko.dec.com> Date: 9 Sep 91 19:17:40 GMT Sender: newsdaemon@engage.pko.dec.com (USENET News Daemon) Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation Lines: 25 In article , sara@nstar.rn.com (Sara Gordon) writes... >Mary Stanley---could you describe if you would the beings that were made of >light? thank you! Well, Sara... they were made of light, you know? .... I mean... each individual color was really a specific individual, intelligent, entity.... they had personality and individual characteristics... but it took awhile to figure that out... to get used to the 'medium' (to coin a phrase)... to get accustomed to that form of existence. It was really a great way to be... I loved it. It felt really exciting and beautiful and interesting. No body ..so no gross sensual experiences but ... an awareness of how things 'felt' anyway... the language was telepathic but you 'heard' it .. just as if you had ears or as if you could hear it in your mind (as if you had a physical mind). .... and they certainly had a sense of humor ... they thought I was a riot! :-) --- Mary Stanley (INTERNET,UUCP) stanley@verga.enet.dec.com (UUCP) ...!decwrl!verga.enet!stanley (INTERNET) stanley%verga.enet@decwrl.dec.com --- Path: ns-mx!uunet!decwrl!pa.dec.com!nntpd.lkg.dec.com!engage.pko.dec.com!verga.enet.dec.com!stanley From: stanley@verga.enet.dec.com Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Ufos And Abductees Message-ID: <1991Sep9.153200.4352@engage.pko.dec.com> Date: 9 Sep 91 19:17:49 GMT Sender: newsdaemon@engage.pko.dec.com (USENET News Daemon) Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation Lines: 22 In article <74808.28C860C7@paranet.FIDONET.ORG>, Michael.Corbin@p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Michael Corbin) writes... > >Yes, but what would it take to convince you that sightings represent a >phenomena which should be studied? Unfortunately, there is nothing in the way >of hard evidence other than some scraps of UFOs which have allegedly blown up. >Scientific study yielded that the material was not uncommon to this Earth. >On the same note, there have been some very good landing trace cases studied >around the world, particularly in France. Although this does not lead >conclusively to evidence of where they come from, it leaves a large question >open as to what they are, and that UFOs in their most mundane definition do >exist. > The crop symbols are "hard evidence", Mike --- Mary Stanley (INTERNET,UUCP) stanley@verga.enet.dec.com (UUCP) ...!decwrl!verga.enet!stanley (INTERNET) stanley%verga.enet@decwrl.dec.com --- Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!rpi!batcomputer!cornell!rochester!pt.cs.cmu.edu!crabapple.srv.cs.cmu.edu!andrew.cmu.edu!fl0p+ From: fl0p+@andrew.cmu.edu (Frank T Lofaro) Newsgroups: sci.energy,sci.environment,sci.physics,sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal Subject: Re: free energy from Reed Magnetic Motor ??? Message-ID: <4cmxC6C00VpO06RG5R@andrew.cmu.edu> Date: 9 Sep 91 20:03:18 GMT References: <4033@shodha.enet.dec.com> Organization: Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA Lines: 16 Xref: ns-mx sci.energy:5976 sci.environment:10160 sci.physics:13004 sci.skeptic:14580 alt.alien.visitors:1976 alt.paranormal:2945 In-Reply-To: <4033@shodha.enet.dec.com> In article <4033@shodha.enet.dec.com>, timpson@shodha.enet.dec.com (Steve Timpson) writes: >In article <8cmj6pe00VouM6WXUE@andrew.cmu.edu>, fl0p+@andrew.cmu.edu (Frank T Lofaro) writes... >>I heard of something called the Newman motor >This has already been debuncked ad a fraud. for get it. Are you talking about when the patent office declared it a fraud even though they insisted on grounding the device, which, according to the theory of operation, would not allow it to work? P.S. I admit the the reed Magnetic motor is almost certainly a fraud, but the Newman motor was featured in a large circulation scientific magazine (Discover, I believe). I restated the points that they made in regard to it about the grounding. I am not 100% sure either way whether the Newman motor does or does not work. Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!ebraeden From: ebraeden@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Eric W Braeden) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: The Mars Pyramid Message-ID: <1991Sep9.215520.20974@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> Date: 9 Sep 91 21:55:20 GMT References: <1991Sep9.130411.9516@runx.oz.au> Sender: news@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu Organization: The Ohio State University Lines: 11 Nntp-Posting-Host: bottom.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu In article <1991Sep9.130411.9516@runx.oz.au> jason@runx.oz.au (Jason Haines) writes: >Has there been any progress with respect to the Martian face and other >structures? > >Also, would a pyramidal structure be capable of focusing gravity waves? > > The answer to the second question is: NO! It would me nice if such were possible but if you stick to REAL physics, the shape would make no difference at all......Isn't there an e-mail address for Hoagland's group? Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!mips!apple!portal!cup.portal.com!Alan_M_Paul From: Alan_M_Paul@cup.portal.com Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Crop circles are a hoax. Message-ID: <46783@cup.portal.com> Date: 9 Sep 91 23:08:10 GMT References: <1991Sep9.133407.6311@aber.ac.uk> Organization: The Portal System (TM) Lines: 1 Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:14599 alt.paranormal:2951 alt.alien.visitors:1978 Unnecessary, indeed .... Path: ns-mx!uunet!wupost!emory!ra!cee1 From: cee1@ra.MsState.Edu (The Chuckmeister) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Wheat Circles and Confessors Summary: HOAX? Keywords: HOAX? Message-ID: Date: 10 Sep 91 13:01:10 GMT Lines: 21 Well, this morning on CBS THis Morning, they had another update of the two people confessing to the wheat circles, showing with thwir rectanguar shaped bar-board things that the set up going around in circles etc. The people that watched them do it for a demonstration then compared them with others in other fields. They did not match. I just think these guys figured a cool way to _imitate_ these. As said before, their confession does not make up for the ones found in Canada, United States, Asia, etc.. I think they have even been some in Australia (?). I don't buy it. Chuckie dn -- +------------------------------------------\\ ------------- | Internet: cee1@Ra.MsState.Edu \\ -------------------- | Bitnet: cee1@MSSTATE.BITNET >> Jesus Christ is Lord | Real Identity: Charles Edward Evans // -------------------- +------------------------------------------// -------------- Path: ns-mx!uunet!decwrl!pa.dec.com!shodha.enet.dec.com!timpson From: timpson@shodha.enet.dec.com (Steve Timpson) Newsgroups: sci.energy,sci.environment,sci.physics,sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal Subject: Re: free energy from Reed Magnetic Motor ??? Message-ID: <4051@shodha.enet.dec.com> Date: 10 Sep 91 13:38:06 GMT Sender: news@shodha.enet.dec.com Followup-To: sci.energy Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation Lines: 41 Xref: ns-mx sci.energy:5984 sci.environment:10168 sci.physics:13021 sci.skeptic:14648 alt.alien.visitors:1980 alt.paranormal:2969 In article <4cmxC6C00VpO06RG5R@andrew.cmu.edu>, fl0p+@andrew.cmu.edu (Frank T Lofaro) writes... >timpson@shodha.enet.dec.com (Steve Timpson) writes: >>In article <8cmj6pe00VouM6WXUE@andrew.cmu.edu>, fl0p+@andrew.cmu.edu >(Frank T Lofaro) writes... >>>I heard of something called the Newman motor >>This has already been debuncked ad a fraud. for get it. > >Are you talking about when the patent office declared it a fraud even >though they insisted on grounding the device, which, according to the >theory of operation, would not allow it to work? > >P.S. I admit the the reed Magnetic motor is almost certainly a fraud, >but the Newman motor was featured in a large circulation scientific >magazine (Discover, I believe). I restated the points that they made in >regard to it about the grounding. I am not 100% sure either way whether >the Newman motor does or does not work. The Newman motor was never proven by Newman to work or do what he claimed. His demonstration looked good but when asked to show the internal workings of the system he clamped down and refused to let anyone get near it. There was a big discussion about this in the physics files here at DEC and on the other networks. After about two months nothing was every heard again about the Newman motor. If I remember the discription of the system correctly (This was over a year ago maybe two) suspisions were raised because it looked like some wiring was coming up through the floor from the basement to the motor. Newman when asked just remainded very secretive. So everyone just shruged and went away. When ever I see some report of a perpetual motion machine like the Newman Motor I just shrug and say "we'll see." If Newman and others have such fantastic machines why aren't they in production right now? "Well the oil companies stop it" you say. Ya right and if you believe that I have a face on Mars I will sell you. Like the Newman motor or the Cold Fusion announcments they all should be taken with a grain of salt. Steve Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!psuvax1!psuvm!cmc127 From: CMC127@psuvm.psu.edu Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Strange Dreams.. Message-ID: <91253.154028CMC127@psuvm.psu.edu> Date: 10 Sep 91 19:40:28 GMT References: <5Xiq81w164w@sys6626.bison.mb.ca> Organization: Penn State University Lines: 7 I was wondering if anybody had the same recurring dream that I've had- It's almost as if I'm listening in on a conversation, but as soon as I try to say something, whoever's on the other end suddenly becomes very quiet almost as if I wasn't supposed to be able to hear the conversation. The weird part about this is that there are images which accompany the voices and the voices are in bursts rather than any vocalized speech. Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!caen!ldoering From: ldoering@engin.umich.edu (Laurence Doering) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Wheat Circles and Confessors Keywords: HOAX? Message-ID: Date: 10 Sep 91 21:39:30 GMT References: Organization: University of Michigan Engineering, Ann Arbor Lines: 37 In article cee1@ra.MsState.Edu (The Chuckmeister) writes: >Well, this morning on CBS THis Morning, they had another update of the two >people confessing to the wheat circles, showing with thwir rectanguar shaped >bar-board things that the set up going around in circles etc. The people that >watched them do it for a demonstration then compared them with others in >other fields. They did not match. I just think these guys figured a cool way >to _imitate_ these. As said before, their confession does not make up for the >ones found in Canada, United States, Asia, etc.. I think they have even been >some in Australia (?). > >I don't buy it. Hmmm... the article in today's Detroit Free Press said it was the other way around. I quote: "To prove their point, the men, aided by a London tabloid, fooled a self-styled expert on the crop-circle phenomena who declared a pattern found over the weekend in a Kent wheat field to be the genuine article, of the sort no human could have made. "Then, while the expert looked on in embarassment, the two -- described by the newspaper Today as 'jovial con men in their 60s' -- gleefully revealed themselves as the artists." Later, the article says: "'They called us 'superior intelligence' and this was the biggest laugh of all,' said David Chorley, who carried out the scheme with Doug Bower. Chorley was referring to speculation that the circles were so big and geometrically precise that they must have been the work of alien spacecraft." Obviously, Chorley and Bower didn't create the crop circles that were found elsewhere in the world, but I don't see why alien spacecraft are the most likely explanation, given that we now know it's entirely possible for people to create fancy crop circles. Of course, I suppose Chorley and Bower could be part of a disinformation campaign designed to hide the *true* origin of crop circles. Moo hoo ha ha. Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!moe.ksu.ksu.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!rphroy!caen!nstar!sara From: sara@nstar.rn.com (Sara Gordon) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Alien Dreams Message-ID: Date: 11 Sep 91 00:10:37 GMT References: <1991Sep9.153038.4269@engage.pko.dec.com> Sender: news@news.rn.com (Usenet News) Organization: NSTAR, Indiana's BBS 219-289-0287/317-251-7391 Lines: 11 Nntp-Posting-Host: zztop.rn.com about the light people.... did they sing to you in real high voices (if they did, you know what it means...) -- Sara Gordon Northern Star 8 line BBS 219-289-0287/317-251-7391 internet: sara@nstar.rn.com uucp: ..!uunet!nstar.rn.com!sara -= newsfeeds available, contact robert@towers.rn.com =- Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!wupost!psuvax1!rutgers!rochester!pt.cs.cmu.edu!crabapple.srv.cs.cmu.edu!andrew.cmu.edu!ms6i+ From: ms6i+@andrew.cmu.edu (Mark Francis Stramaglia) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: COVER-UP Message-ID: Date: 11 Sep 91 00:39:27 GMT Organization: Senior, Art, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA Lines: 6 "Today" exposes corn circles as a hoax. DON'T GIVE IN TO THE CONSPIRACY. DON'T BELIEVE IT. It's just another cover-up. Another way to discredit any who might see through the propaganda. Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!moe.ksu.ksu.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sdd.hp.com!hp-pcd!hp-vcd!kevinc From: kevinc@hp-vcd.vcd.hp.com (Kevin Cyrus) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Prophesy Message-ID: <12790008@hp-vcd.vcd.hp.com> Date: 10 Sep 91 22:17:04 GMT References: Organization: Hewlett Packard, Vancouver, WA Lines: 42 >Biblical prophesy indicates that (using the 1948 date of Israel statehood as >the time the clock starts t> tick) that in 1992-3 a bad guy will show up > in Europe to bring a false peace to the middle east (how did they know they > 2000 years ago?) which would last for 3 1/2 years followed by 3 1/2 years > of God knows what (hell most likely). > > H.G. Wells, who wrote a book called In the Days of > the Comet. And what's this I hear about a planetoid aimed at earth as > described in the Oct. 8th(?) 1990 issue of the NY Times and discussed here as > a possible Reptoid invasion? > > Somewhere in all this are our space brothers/sisters who may help. > > 67% to 75% of the population will cease to exist. The face of the earth > will change (2/3s of Japan will go bye-bye, among other things), I've got > a ton of info.... > David W. Jones > davidj@wrs.com OR > uunet!wrs!davidj ________________________ I reallize that according to Biblical prophecy, one third of mankind will be destroyed (Rev 9:18), and a third of the waters will become polluted from a fallen star (asteroid maybe?), and a third of the creatures and a third of the ships will die and be destroyed (Rev :9-10). But how and where do you get these amazing stats specifically on Japan? Inquiring minds want to know. Also, did Nostro contradict himself ? I'm not sure on the exact dates, but did'nt he originally predict the start of WW3 to be in 1999 (please correct me if this info is bogus) ? Anyway, if you have "a ton of info" I would like to borrow a pound please. :-) E-Mail kevin_cyrus @hp-vcd.vcd.hp.com Hewlett Packard Vancouver Division Vancouver Washington 98607 Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!wupost!psuvax1!hsdndev!dartvax!Rickie.A.Slater From: Rickie.A.Slater@dartmouth.edu (Rickie A. Slater) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Thank you to Don Allen for the Tesla info Message-ID: <1991Sep10.233148.9999@dartvax.dartmouth.edu> Date: 10 Sep 91 23:31:48 GMT References: Sender: news@dartvax.dartmouth.edu (The News Manager) Organization: Dartmouth College, Hanover, NH Lines: 15 In article davidj@wrs.com (David Jones) writes: > Don, > > Thanks for posting those articles about DePalma and Tesla. > > I spent some time with DePalma at his house in Santa Barbara not too long ago. > I was there (in his garage) with about 8 others and received a first-hand > demonstration of his electrical free-energy device. > A question: Did DePalma say why he is not marketing this device? Path: ns-mx!uunet!mcsun!ukc!liv-cs!liv!jpst55 From: JPST55@LIVERPOOL.AC.UK Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal,sci.skeptic Subject: Dave and Doug's crop circle hoax Message-ID: <91253.195627JPST55@LIVERPOOL.AC.UK> Date: 10 Sep 91 18:56:27 GMT Organization: University of Liverpool Lines: 28 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:1987 alt.paranormal:2996 sci.skeptic:14735 Well it would seem that the cat is out of the bag. According to the Today newspaper 9 & 10 Sept. two artists have been creating the circles in the dead of night for the last 13 years. They've now decided to give it up because they are "getting too old and it's gone too far." The two hoaxers were it was repor ted in the paper Today 10/9/91 showing to Pat Delgado how they carried out the hoaxed circles. The result of this confession remains to be seen, however just as Meaden's theory was losing impetus because it could not cope with the increasing complex ity of the circle/glyph/pictograms it would now seem that the vortex theory remain as the only alternative to hoax. The argument is that the simple circle may be the result of vortices of air while the complex lines, triangle, and mandlebrot were no doubt hoaxes! Delgado, according to Andrews has decided the whole thing is over. John Mich- ell editor of the Cerealogist is sensibly waiting for a demonstration of the hoaxing ability of Dave and Doug under test conditions. Which less likely to occur so late in the season (D & D picked a good time to confess:) Will we get anymore circles in the corn fields? Will the hoax hypothesis be proved to be the explanation we've all been waiting for? Will this years books on the subject arrive in the bookshops (its a cert that a new chapter will have to be written quickly!!) Who knows what will happen? Carl Williams Its got to be true if its in the paper!!! Path: ns-mx!uunet!mcsun!ukc!ox-prg!oxuniv!ameij From: ameij@vax.oxford.ac.uk Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Ufos And Abductees Message-ID: <1991Sep10.124710.1761@vax.oxford.ac.uk> Date: 10 Sep 91 11:47:10 GMT References: <1991Sep9.153200.4352@engage.pko.dec.com> Organization: Oxford University VAXcluster Lines: 10 In article <1991Sep9.153200.4352@engage.pko.dec.com>, stanley@verga.enet.dec.com writes: > > The crop symbols are "hard evidence", Mike > Is there much evidence connecting crop symbols to UFO's then? There have been a hell of a lot of crop symbols in England - has there been a correspondingly high rate of UFO sightings with good geographical correlation? Ian Path: ns-mx!uunet!cbmvax!amix!vanth!jms From: jms@vanth.UUCP (Jim Shaffer) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: End of the World Message-ID: Date: 10 Sep 91 15:03:25 GMT References: <9037@cs.tulane.edu> Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence Lines: 18 In article <9037@cs.tulane.edu> goff@pops.navo.navy.mil (Viki Goff) writes: > >If all of these other folks can post outrageous stories and opinions, >then why can't Christians speak what should be spoken!!! Well, I for one am not happy about the New Age camp, the more outrageous Lear-type stories, OR the Christians! How's THAT for equal-opportunity skepticism? What this group needs is more facts and less rumor. I'm not going to go into why this we're-right-and-everyone-else-is-wrong ideology irritates people (though I would have thought it obvious) because this isn't the newsgroup for religious wars. -- * From the disk of: |>>>>> back at the old feed <<<<<| We're only immortal Jim Shaffer, Jr. | uunet!cbmvax!amix!vanth!jms | for a limited time. 37 Brook Street | jms%vanth@amix.commodore.com | Montgomery, PA 17752 | 72750.2335@compuserve.com | (Rush, "Dreamline") Path: ns-mx!uunet!cbmvax!amix!vanth!jms From: jms@vanth.UUCP (Jim Shaffer) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic Subject: Re: Our Moon Part 1 Message-ID: Date: 10 Sep 91 15:05:08 GMT References: <1991Sep4.010632.20064@bilver.uucp> Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence Lines: 7 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:1990 sci.skeptic:14740 You don't need to quote entire articles to add three lines. -- * From the disk of: |>>>>> back at the old feed <<<<<| We're only immortal Jim Shaffer, Jr. | uunet!cbmvax!amix!vanth!jms | for a limited time. 37 Brook Street | jms%vanth@amix.commodore.com | Montgomery, PA 17752 | 72750.2335@compuserve.com | (Rush, "Dreamline") Path: ns-mx!uunet!cbmvax!amix!vanth!jms From: jms@vanth.UUCP (Jim Shaffer) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic Subject: crop circle confession a hoax? Message-ID: Date: 10 Sep 91 15:22:37 GMT Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence Lines: 48 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:1991 sci.skeptic:14741 There was an AP report in the local paper today about two men who claim to have been responsible for the rash of crop circles in England. The newspaper which reported it said that it had the men produce a circle and then invited Delgado to look at it. Delgado said, "No human could have done this." After being told the truth, he said it was "a great con and a great dirty trick," and "I was taken for a ride like many other people. But if it wasn't me who was duped, it would have been someone else later on. This was obviously a great joke lasting years, but somewhere or another it would have been exposed." However, this is where any resemblance to sanity ends, in my opinion. The article also says that the hoaxers "gave detailed information about how they planned and executed each design since the late 1970s." Either they only meant the most elaborate and sensational designs and neglected to say so, or the claim is stretching credibility. We're talking about a *lot* of circles for men in their 60s. Furthermore, the newspaper makes the claim that "the wheat was bent down rather than broken so farmers could still harvest the crop." I fail to see the difference, from a harvesting standpoint, between bending it and breaking it. I have also heard it mentioned that the grain in which circles are formed is unharvestable. But that is only half of the story. I had hardly finished reading the newspaper when I saw the subject on the news on a local ABC affiliate. This report, unlike the AP report, did mention that some people (I believe they even said some *scientists*) didn't believe that the hoax theory was valid. In fact, they interviewed *Delgado* and he said that he didn't believe it! What happened? Damage control, or just a delay in realizing that the hoax claims were unlikely? It will be quite interesting to see how this develops in the next few days. I hope we can get a report from Robert Trevelyan or someone else who lives closer to the subject. I suspect we won't hear any more about it from the American media. Trivia/Comic Relief/Hail Eris! Department: Consider this. The confession apparently came about as a result of the hoaxers being upset that people were making money selling books about the hoax. However, the confession apparently fails to account for all of the evidence for the phenomenon. What other bothersome phenomenon and individual, loosely connected to UFOlogy, does this resemble? (This came to me after reading the article about five times.) -- * From the disk of: |>>>>> back at the old feed <<<<<| We're only immortal Jim Shaffer, Jr. | uunet!cbmvax!amix!vanth!jms | for a limited time. 37 Brook Street | jms%vanth@amix.commodore.com | Montgomery, PA 17752 | 72750.2335@compuserve.com | (Rush, "Dreamline") Path: ns-mx!uunet!munnari.oz.au!manuel!news From: (John Quiggin) Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Crop circles are a hoax. Message-ID: <1991Sep11.064510.20415@newshost.anu.edu.au> Date: 11 Sep 91 06:45:10 GMT References: <1991Sep9.133407.6311@aber.ac.uk> Sender: news@newshost.anu.edu.au Organization: ANU Lines: 15 Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:14746 alt.paranormal:3000 alt.alien.visitors:1992 > > "Corn circle expert Patrick Delgado [author of 'Circular Evidence' and > 'The Latest Evidence'] admitted last night 'We have all been conned. > Thousands of lives are going to be wrecked over this'." > I read this in the newspaper, then heard Delgado on the radio claiming that the English circle is an obvious hoax. Has he been nailed on this? In particular, is it true that he went to the site and proclaimed it genuine as stated in the original report? Any info appreciated. BTW, other hoaxers have previously confessed in Germany and (I think) elsewhere. John Q Path: ns-mx!uunet!wupost!usc!apple!fernwood!portal!cup.portal.com!Don_-_Showen From: Don_-_Showen@cup.portal.com Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors Subject: The Pleiadian Transcripts Message-ID: <46869@cup.portal.com> Date: 11 Sep 91 06:47:55 GMT Organization: The Portal System (TM) Lines: 16 Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:14752 alt.paranormal:3002 alt.alien.visitors:1993 The Pleiadians are a group of entities from our future being channeled by Barbra Marcinack. They have been coming through for over three years and are mainly on cassette tapes. A friend of mine went to the trouble of transcribing two evening worth of tapes. The transcripts present an entirely new concept of god(s) and of humans. I have found them to be inspiring and uplifting. (Thought provoking:-)) to say the least. For me they have given answers to many, many areas I could not find answers before. I offered to send them email to folks about four months ago and 35 net folks requested them. So now that we have our new fall crop of net folks I am again making the offer. They consist of six 30k files and a tape list. I highly recommend that people who are religious do not ask for them as they do not speak favorably towards religion. The Pleiadians say they are here to inspire us to the highest degree possible so we will wake up and start creating our own reality by doing this we will change our future and thereby change their reality. Don Showen Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!asuvax!ukma!ra!cee1 From: cee1@ra.MsState.Edu (The Chuckmeister) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Marrs & End of world in 1997? computers tool of Satan? Message-ID: Date: 11 Sep 91 18:01:48 GMT References: <1991Aug29.020039.29782@netcom.COM> <91242.201929UMASP@MAINE.MAINE.EDU> <91248.200330UMASP@MAINE.MAINE.EDU> Lines: 70 UMASP@MAINE.MAINE.EDU writes: [[[many lines deleted]]] >Sure. And if we go by the idea that Christ was born on Dec 25, then I am sorry, but Jesus Christ was not born on December 25, its an old Catholic/Pagan thing. Jesus Christ was most probabley born early Sept. , i.e. Sept 7 or something around a feast.. as most things in the Bible happen during feasts. Or is that Sept 20 something. Anyway, by the context of Jesus's birth, its obviouisly not in the chill of Winter. >that means that he was conceived (so to speak) on or about March 25, >which is supposed to be a time of the year with great demonic influences. >As for the authors of the Book of Revelations in the Bible, remember, >the King James Version of the Bible was commissioned by King James of >England in (1652?), not by James the brother of Jesus. Also remember Commisioned in 1601,published 1611. >that the Bible in those days (1600's I mean), took on whatever meaning >and interpretation the church gave to it, so some of these 'significant' >numbers and such may have had nothing to do with the original authors. Numbers are very very very important throughout the entire Bible. Numbers stand for things. Just as it rained for 40 days and 40 night in Noah's Flood, so was Jesus tempted 40 days and nights, and the Isr- aelites were in the wilderness for 40 years. etc. etc. 7 the number of perfection. 6 the number of man. 5 the number of death NOT grace. 4 ? 3 the number of the trinity. 10 the number of Gentiles. 40 as you see the number of trials and tribulations. Etc. Numbers play a very large role in God's plan. 12 disciples, 12 tribes of Israel. >My information on this matter, by the way, comes from my uncle, who >holds a Masters Degree in Theology, and studied the 'real original' NOT NOT NOT NOT. Time and time again, people claim to have seen/read/ studied/etc/etc the ORIGINAL MANUSCRIPTS. People, they no longer exist. THey haven't since the early 200s. All are copies. [Sorry, I know this belongs on soc.religion.christian, but what the hey.]. >transcripts and scrolls from their original hebrew and greek. In case >you hadn't figured it out by now, my original posting was meant to be >facetious. It was trying to prove that anyone could seemingly make >mystical observations about anything they wanted. >>Of course I can't vouch for St. John's willingness to accept the >>validity of adding up positions in the Roman alphabet as a substitute >>for traditional Gematria, so even this interpretation, even though it >>is more in line with our experience, is suspect. >Why wouldn't St. John have used the Roman alphabet. The Romans had >quite an influence on people of that time period. After all, they >controlled most of the territory. >Well enough bitching about the whole thing. It's obvious you didn't >get the subtle kick in the head from my original posting, so I won't >waste any more time on it. CHuck / cee1@ra.msstate.edu >George Newell >umasp@maine.maine.edu -- +------------------------------------------\\ ------------- | Internet: cee1@Ra.MsState.Edu \\ -------------------- | Bitnet: cee1@MSSTATE.BITNET >> Jesus Christ is Lord | Real Identity: Charles Edward Evans // -------------------- +------------------------------------------// -------------- Path: ns-mx!uunet!munnari.oz.au!bruce!goanna!minyos.xx.rmit.oz.au!rxxgre From: rxxgre@minyos.xx.rmit.oz.au (Geof Rey Evans) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Alien Dreams Message-ID: <1991Sep11.082250.11466@minyos.xx.rmit.oz.au> Date: 11 Sep 91 08:22:50 GMT References: <1991Sep9.153038.4269@engage.pko.dec.com> Organization: RMIT Computer Centre, Melbourne Australia. Lines: 30 Last night I had a dream which was very disorientating. I can't remember much detail (didn't write it down) but I do know that the overall feeling (overwhelming feeling !) was of being *beckoned* by what my instincts told me was an *alien* intelligence. It was very lucid I guess 'cause I had the sensation of being awake at the time. What was strange was a strong sense of fear which is quite unlike myself who has always maintained a "oh wow, this should be good" type attitude to these things. I could see (in my minds eye) a being not unlike what others would call a "grey" beckoning me with an index finger, and could hear some kind of far away calling which I could not hear as *english* but could understand (interpret ?) as calling me. This actually appeared to be coming from inside my head rather than my ears. The feeling that they had come for me and that they were alien was unbelievably strong and seemingly without doubt on my part, though quite ah, intuitive. I found it very scary (this surprised me a lot !) and had to wake myself up as the fear (and the feeling) grew quite strong. I had a cigarette and calmed down.....and the feeling they were "there" stayed with me for 5-10 mins, and then *faded* away and did not return and i went back to sleep. Anyone care to comment. I am well aquainted with the paranormal but have never experienced anything like this. I had hair up on end absolutely ALL over my body. Quite unreal. ciao, Geof. -- ___________________________________________________________________ || Geof Evans | DOMAIN: rxxgre@minyos.xx.rmit.oz.au || || Melbourne,Australia 3000 | Tel: +61 3 663 3663 || || If they *really* wanna know...tell 'em God was drunk. || Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!convex.csd.uwm.edu!anthony From: anthony@convex.csd.uwm.edu (Anthony J Stieber) Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: UFOs and Abductees Message-ID: <1991Sep11.195848.21288@uwm.edu> Date: 11 Sep 91 19:58:48 GMT References: <1991Sep05.215012.3207@pmafire.inel.gov> Sender: news@uwm.edu (USENET News System) Organization: University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee Lines: 22 Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:14802 alt.alien.visitors:1996 In article thelar@vesta.unm.edu () writes: >It would appear that you don't believe in life on other planets. >To this let me reply that to think that of the Billions (gazillions, whetever) >of planets, that we are the only ones with intelligent life upon it is: Except that we don't know that there are other planets, but the nine in our own star system. A ring has been dectected around one star some years ago, and recently what may be a rather large gas giant planet (or a small cool starlike object) was detected. This is the only evidence we have so far that planets may even form around other stars. It would seem unlikely that planets are unique here, but saying outright that there are a very large numbers of planets is not correct. It would be better to take that fraction of stars that exist that are G class, then that fraction which are solitary (most stars are binaries or in close clusters), then that fraction which have have enough matter around them to form planets. We don't have the last number at all, merely wide ranging guesses. Other numbers such as how many of these planetary systems have Earth-like planets are even more shakey. -- <-:(= Anthony Stieber anthony@csd4.csd.uwm.edu uwm!uwmcsd4!anthony Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!ut-emx!ibmchs!auschs!awdprime!woofer.austin.ibm.com!craigb From: craigb@woofer.austin.ibm.com (Craig Becker) Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Crop circles are a hoax. Message-ID: <10939@awdprime.UUCP> Date: 11 Sep 91 17:16:51 GMT References: <1991Sep11.064510.20415@newshost.anu.edu.au> <1991Sep9.133407.6311@aber.ac.uk> Sender: news@awdprime.UUCP Reply-To: craigb@ot.austin.ibm.com Followup-To: sci.skeptic Organization: IBM Object Technology Products Lines: 17 Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:14822 alt.paranormal:3013 alt.alien.visitors:1997 Well, this may be rather naive of me, but if these two guys have confessed to being the culprits, and assuming that they aren't going to do it anymore, I'd think that there number of crop circle incidents in the area would take a nosedive...granted, others might attempt to 'take over the mantle', as it were, but I kinda get the idea these jokers were fanatics. Craig ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- "I mean, foreign agent or no, Craig Becker, Object Technology Products -- -- I've done good work for the Internet: craigb@ot.vnet.ibm.com -- -- city. I never compromised my Austin: craigb@ot.austin.ibm.com -- -- integrity, except a few times." VNET: CRAIGB at AUSVM1 -- ---------------------- Lt. Okking ------------------------------------------- -- off 808/1K-020 zip 3008 ph (512) 823-1756 tl 793-1756 hm (512) 346-5397 -- -- IBM Personal Systems Programming, 11400 Burnet Road, Austin, TX, 78759 -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Path: ns-mx!uunet!cbmvax!amix!vanth!jms From: jms@vanth.UUCP (Jim Shaffer) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Implants Message-ID: Date: 11 Sep 91 15:24:58 GMT References: Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence Lines: 19 In article davidj@wrs.com (David Jones) writes: > >I have spoken with many `implanted' people. Cooper, when visited by these >people, and after some preliminary questions, will not let them into his house. >A few months back, I was chatting with Bud Hopkins. He indicated that he, >personally, was involved with at least 3 people that have had these small >round objects removed after a series of alien abductions. They are being >studied to determine what they are. He also showed me photos of puncture >marks above and to the front of the ear of a lady. This implant was >very difficult to get to. This is *excellent* news, I had no idea there were that many implants recovered. -- * From the disk of: |>>>>> back at the old feed <<<<<| We're only immortal Jim Shaffer, Jr. | uunet!cbmvax!amix!vanth!jms | for a limited time. 37 Brook Street | jms%vanth@amix.commodore.com | Montgomery, PA 17752 | 72750.2335@compuserve.com | (Rush, "Dreamline") Path: ns-mx!uunet!cbmvax!amix!vanth!jms From: jms@vanth.UUCP (Jim Shaffer) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Prophesy Message-ID: Date: 11 Sep 91 15:30:37 GMT References: Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence Lines: 21 In article davidj@wrs.com (David Jones) writes: > >H.G. Wells, who wrote many a prophetic book, wrote a book called In the Days of >the Comet. And what's this I hear about a planetoid aimed at earth as >described in the Oct. 8th(?) 1990 issue of the NY Times and discussed here as >a possible Reptoid invasion? There are asteroids crossing the earth's orbit, sometimes very close to us, from time to time. The special thing about the one due in 1992 is that it's the first one detected before it got anywhere near us. Normally we only see them as they're going by or after they've passed. I don't have the faintest idea where the Reptoid story got started, other than the thing has supposedly been seen to change course. I haven't heard any sources for that claim. -- * From the disk of: |>>>>> back at the old feed <<<<<| We're only immortal Jim Shaffer, Jr. | uunet!cbmvax!amix!vanth!jms | for a limited time. 37 Brook Street | jms%vanth@amix.commodore.com | Montgomery, PA 17752 | 72750.2335@compuserve.com | (Rush, "Dreamline")